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Thread: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

  1. #11
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    @ forcecore ...... I totally agree with what you are getting at here and that would make Linux Number 1 ........... bye bye Windows.

    ( Blender 2.69 is a great example - I can download their package into very old systems - unpack it and it just runs )

    if only all packages were like this one - then Linux would take a hold of the market to such an extent - it may become the main one.
    Last edited by 23dornot23d; April 1st, 2014 at 01:22 PM. Reason: version of Blender added as have not checked them all

  2. #12
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Software that is not installed cannot be used.

    The Linux file system is based on shared libraries: The first app that requires Library X pulls it in as a dependency. Any other app installed subsequently that requires Library X uses the one that's already installed.

    To move to a system that sees individual applications using libraries inside application-specific folder would require a wholesale redesign and rewrite of Linux, as well as inviting the maintenance and security faults this approach brings with it. (You become dependent on each app maintainer to update the libraries under its control, even if they are identical to libraries someone else has updated.)

    Storing settings inside application-controlled directories seems to offer no advantage over the current approach of storing them in each user's home directory. How would the OS distinguish between settings for User A and User B? I'm sure a way could be devised, but to what advantage?

    Ubuntu, like every other Linux distribution, is primarily a packager of software developed elsewhere. Any fundamental change in how Linux is structured and implemented requires concurrence by thousands of developers who are not exactly likely to take orders.

    Binary portability between operating systems can't really work.

    If you want to install so badly, then buy a 2 terabyte harddisk and install every package from package manager ONE BY ONE.

  3. #13
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    Originally Posted by buzzingrobot
    Software that is not installed cannot be used.
    I am not so sure that statement is TRUE ...............

    I can point to a package - " Blender 2,69 " and just run it ........ but I did not install it in the current system as it sits in a folder on another drive.

    The only thing that I usually need to be sure of - is whether I am running 32 bit or 64 bit .

    Would really like to see a list of packages that will run without a proper install into the current running system .... that would be heading towards

    a full cloud based system of running programs from anywhere - I guess ...........
    Last edited by 23dornot23d; April 1st, 2014 at 01:21 PM. Reason: sp

  4. #14
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    One key strength of a Linux distribution like Ubuntu (and others) is that its repositories contain packages that have been audited.

    One key weakness of Windows is that its users are encouraged to download software of unknown quality and safety from unknown sources.

    Windows' ".exe" installation packages are the rough, lesser, equivalent of ".deb" packages In Linux. They contain necessary files, etc., and a script to place the files in the correct location in the filesystem. In Windows, that is often in the same directory as the one created to host the actual application binary. In Linux, those supporting files are placed in standardized locations in the filesystem. This prevents the repeated installation of identical files and dramatically reduces maintenance and security concerns.

    As far as I recall, Windows has no automatic dependency resolution capability. Unless a software vendor is sure *all* the dependencies required for a program will be on *all* Windows machines, that vendor has not choice but to include those dependencies in the installation package. Multiple copies of those dependencies might already exist on any given Windows machine.

    In Linux, the tar achive (????.tar.gz) is a direct analogy of zip files in Windows, in that both are simply compressed collections of files, and not intended as automated installation tools.

    Many tens of thousands of packages are available as .debs for easy installation in Ubuntu.
    Last edited by buzzingrobot; April 1st, 2014 at 01:25 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by 23dornot23d View Post
    I am not so sure that statement is TRUE ...............

    I can point to a package - " Blender 2,69 " and just run it ........ but I did not install it in the current system as it sits in a folder on another drive.

    ..
    Of course, you installed it. Even if it's just one single binary, you had to copy it from someplace to storage accessible by your system. That's installation.

    You can run apps over the web or over a local network, but that's the same thing: The app is installed on storage accessible by your system.

  6. #16
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by leivalabidas View Post
    If you want to install so badly, then buy a 2 terabyte harddisk and install every package from package manager ONE BY ONE.
    I'm not sure what that means.

    Are you arguing software can be used in Windows without installation?

    I install software in Ubuntu with one click. Is a zero-click method available in Windows?

  7. #17
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Of course, you installed it. Even if it's just one single binary, you had to copy it from someplace to storage accessible by your system. That's installation.

    You can run apps over the web or over a local network, but that's the same thing: The app is installed on storage accessible by your system.

    You also said this ......... but if you just unzip something into a folder are you saying that - its the same thing as a .deb that puts things in specific places over the drive
    structure .......


    In Linux, the tar achive (????.tar.gz) is a direct analogy of zip files in Windows, in that both are simply compressed collections of files, and not intended as automated installation tools.
    What I was trying to get to was that you can run Blender by unzipping it into a folder .......... on a older system where it was not installed to ....... and the relative libraries and pointers do not exist. ( we could get into a discussion about zip tar and uncompressing files ....... but its only a complete installation if it affects the operating system
    that it is going into - by incorporating itself in a maze or web of connections in that operating system )

    Unzipping into a directory // is so much simpler and does not inflict any damage or problems into older systems through having to upgrade libraries or programs that
    some of your other older software relies on as dependencies.

    The thread is good as it raises the issue ........... if Linux had got the market of supplying software in packages on disk that did not destroy or alter the users OS in such a way that it makes it difficult to remove and add new programs without in some way taking a risk that it may in fact effect the older programs already installed on said system.

    Un-zipping into a folder was not what I consider a installation as such ......... as I can easily remove said folder and the program is gone ..........

    With a debian gdebi / package manager install ........ only the package manager can uninstall it safely .........

    This is where Linux may have got a better hold on the market place .......

    Code:
    The fact that a TRUE / PROPER install ........ 
    
    Could not be done without people having to keep upgrading perfectly good systems all the time to get the latest software to run.
    That is probably the one thing that kills user systems off ...... leaving them wondering ...... why did I upgrade ..... or why when my graphics / network / sound worked
    alright before the install ......... does it not work now.

    Its because parts of the system get upgraded that affect other installed packages ...... in such a way that the install will ask you to remove things or lead you into a
    dependency hell .........

    Unzipping into one directory is not a full install and does not lead to those problems stated above.

    My own thoughts are that Blender has done a great job ...... and if only Wings3d could do a similar one - then every 6 months I would not have to go through

    similar convoluted methods of getting things working on my own systems that I know work perfectly well , that was before any upgrade or installation of new software

    that often is tied back to older ways of running ........

    That is why Cinepaint will not install ...... that is why Gnofract4d, K3dsurf etc will only install with lots of messing around ...... it is also why as Ubuntu constantly changes it will constantly lose more and more packages that were made to run on the older versions.

    Not because the programs themselves are bad - its because they cannot install without a package of older libraries sitting below them.

    I would like to see Linux take a step towards solving the problem of how to package programs - like Blender has done -

    So they the programs are not so dependent or interwoven - in such a way that they start to destroy your system when either installing or removing said software

    using one of the many package managers available now ....... and all working in slightly different ways ....... (some work better than others in this task).

    ........ if just unzipped into a single folder ( this to me is not what I class as a full installation ) and can be easily removed without really affecting the OS.

  8. #18
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    If you prefer a system that lacks automated dependency resolution, lacks a package manager, and permits unknown software of untested safety from unknown sources to have full access to your system, and also leaves you responsible for locating and installing dependencies it fails to include, as well as making you dependent on multiple vendors for security updates to identical software strewn in multiple locations across your system, then Windows is for you.

    Linux uses a different approach, which, among other advantages, greatly reduces the bloat and security risk inherent in the Windows approach to software installation. This approach is reliable if the user takes the time to understand it. If the user tries to subvert that approach by imposing hazardous Windows habits and techniques on it, then the user is doing it wrong and should expect things to break.

    (Blender is in Ubuntu's repos. Why get it from another source?)
    Last edited by buzzingrobot; April 1st, 2014 at 03:08 PM.

  9. #19
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    If you prefer a system that lacks automated dependency resolution, lacks a package manager, and permits unknown software of untested safety from unknown sources to have full access to your system, and also leaves you responsible for locating and installing dependencies it fails to include, as well as making you dependent on multiple vendors for security updates to identical software strewn in multiple locations across your system, then Windows is for you.
    No i really like that system core is well controlled and safe, i just say that there should be more software by 3rd party if major upgrade comes then i can use or test new version without install or carry specific version with me including settings. Portable software do not need system password too for install and can be even used in guest account on someone computer.
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  10. #20
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    Re: What if Linux was the only OS in existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old_Grey_Wolf View Post
    Without Microsoft and Apple I question whether most people would have the option to have a home computer. They made home computers affordable and available for many non-tech people.
    +1 Sadly True
    “My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places.”
    ― A.A. Milne

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