upstart, systemd, Canonical and Debian

[buzzingrobot]

This time, Redhat made systemd and it does lots of things, people are starting to make their apps depend on it specifically and they're basically trying to force it down everyone's throats.

Hard for me to see how RH is forcing anything on anyone. If developers of X want to make Y a dependency, that's their call. It's the way Linux is designed and built. If a developer wants to use X but avoid Y, let him code his way out of it. After all, the source is there.

The contradiction between asserting that FOSS is about choice (it isn't; it's about access to source) and the insistence that all of FOSS standardize as much as possible is obvious, but widespread.

[vasa1]

It's definitely Redhat vs the rational Linux world.
...

But what about Arch and OpenSUSE? Don't they also use systemd?

[mips]

But what about Arch and OpenSUSE? Don't they also use systemd?

Yes.

Aptosid
Arch Linux
Chakra Linux
CoreOS
Debian GNU/Linux
Fedora
Frugalware Linux
Gentoo Linux
Mageia
Manjaro
openSUSE
Red Hat Enterprise Linux
Sabayon Linux
siduction

[mips]

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte.../msg00405.html

Bug#727708: call for votes on default Linux init system for jessie

---

• To: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
• Cc: 727708@bugs.debian.org, secretary@debian.org
• Subject: Bug#727708: call for votes on default Linux init system for jessie
• From: Bdale Garbee <bdale@gag.com>
• Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:35:13 -0700
• Message-id: <87vbwlvhsu.fsf@rover.gag.com>
• Reply-to: Bdale Garbee <bdale@gag.com>, 727708@bugs.debian.org
• In-reply-to: <20140211084517.GA21823@master.debian.org>
• References: <20140211084517.GA21823@master.debian.org>

---

Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> writes:

> A.6.6: Schwartz set is {D,U}
> A.6.8: There are no defeats in the Schwartz set, so the elector with
> the casting vote chooses which of these options wins.
>
> Per 6.3.2, the casting vote is held by the Chairman, who is currently
> Bdale.

Thank you, Anthony, for your analysis of the votes.

Per 6.3.2, I use my casting vote to choose D as the winner.

Therefore, the resolution reads:

We exercise our power to decide in cases of overlapping jurisdiction
(6.1.2) by asserting that the default init system for Linux
architectures in jessie should be systemd.

Should the project pass a General Resolution before the release of
"jessie" asserting a "position statement about issues of the day" on
init systems, that position replaces the outcome of this vote and is
adopted by the Technical Committee as its own decision.

Bdale

[mips]

So it looks like it's gonna be systemd for Debian Jessie.

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/commen...ote_to_choose/
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTYwMDQ
http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201402/...ault-init.html
http://www.muktware.com/2014/02/fina...-upstart/20887

[1clue]

Redhat and Gnome have been politicking hard for systemd. Post #13 on this thread shows a list of distros, but some of that I know to be false.

For example, Gentoo only requires systemd if you use gnome, which is the way it should be because gnome has hardcoded a dependency for systemd on it. Otherwise there is no dependency on a particular init system.

Also based on discussions in Gentoo and the associated links in those discussions, it's obvious that there's a bunch of bad information out there, mostly exaggerating who has adopted it and to what degree they have adopted it.

I don't deny that projects can choose their dependencies, but an init system? Really? And on top of that there are people joining forums solely to push systemd.

FOSS IS about choice. You should be able to choose which software you run. There are several init systems out there, and a lot of politicking about how many projects require systemd, in an attempt to convince distros that they should make it the default. I don't know why, but it seems many of these choices are not made by merit of the package.

By adding a bunch of extra junk onto systemd, it's no longer just an init system. If too many projects drink the bad kool-aid and start believing it's actually better for every use case, then they start coding it into their projects the way Gnome has. I have yet to be convinced that it's better for ANY use case, but if anything it would be the full-blown desktop. Most of my Linux installations are not full-blown desktops, and the minimal server use case is definitely NOT helped by systemd.

I'm all about allowing choice, but IMO it should be an informed choice. People who care about their boot process and init system should see what the fuss is about and make their own call.

[mips]

Redhat and Gnome have been politicking hard for systemd. Post #13 on this thread shows a list of distros, but some of that I know to be false.

For example, Gentoo only requires systemd if you use gnome, which is the way it should be because gnome has hardcoded a dependency for systemd on it. Otherwise there is no dependency on a particular init system.

Well point out all the false info, it's a list I got from wikipedia which we all know is not the be all and end all of information sources.

Gentoo supports both OpenRC & systemd, they are not enforcing systemd as a defacto standard.
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:.../Ebuild_policy

[1clue]

One of the Gnome guys (Olav Vitters) joined up on Gentoo forums just for that discussion. I mentioned his blog and somebody else started pointing out errors. I haven't heard from him since, and the errors are still there. I thought you got the list from his blog, but evidently either he wrote the wikipedia page or somebody quoted him from it. Or maybe the other way around? His blog is unashamedly biased toward systemd (he mentions that at the top) so I don't know who wrote what first.

[mips]

One of the Gnome guys (Olav Vitters) joined up on Gentoo forums just for that discussion. I mentioned his blog and somebody else started pointing out errors. I haven't heard from him since, and the errors are still there. I thought you got the list from his blog, but evidently either he wrote the wikipedia page or somebody quoted him from it. Or maybe the other way around? His blog is unashamedly biased toward systemd (he mentions that at the top) so I don't know who wrote what first.

Was not aware of that, I got the list from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Adoption

Edit: All this talk of Gentoo has now given me an itch to install it again. Sigh and I swore my Gentoo days were over, must resist

[vasa1]

Redhat and Gnome have been politicking hard for systemd. Post #13 on this thread shows a list of distros, but some of that I know to be false.
...

Quite possibly. But what about Arch? Anyway, even assuming that Redhat owns/controls GNOME, the point is that individual distros have made choices.