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Thread: How was it tested?

  1. #21
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    ... but it's not the job of the end-user to find and report bugs..
    Well, yes, it is.

    Most FOSS products are made by people and organizations who either receive no payment for their efforts or who lack the resources to fund in-depth in-house testing.

    That's why FOSS products typically have public alpha and beta releases: To let the public wring out early code and, developers hope, report bugs. Whether or not all bugs are found and patched before the general release is a matter of luck: It is impossible for anyone -- even Apple and Microsoft -- to test software in every possible situation.

    The independent commercial developers who try to earn a living writing applications for OS X are in a very similar position.

    The picture for Ubuntu and other Linux distribution is further complicated by the fact that they are primarily packagers of other software released by developers that are not responsible to them.

    This is the nature of FOSS. And, it's also the result of the reality that 20 years of history shows Linux users aren't prepared to pay for software. Perhaps if a profit could be made selling Linux distributions, then those distributions could afford to do more in-house testing.

    On the other hand, Linux bug tracking systems are typically public and open, and any user can participate. That doesn't happen on the other side of the fence.

  2. #22
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Well, yes, it is.

    Most FOSS products are made by people and organizations who either receive no payment for their efforts or who lack the resources to fund in-depth in-house testing.

    That's why FOSS products typically have public alpha and beta releases: To let the public wring out early code and, developers hope, report bugs. Whether or not all bugs are found and patched before the general release is a matter of luck: It is impossible for anyone -- even Apple and Microsoft -- to test software in every possible situation.

    The independent commercial developers who try to earn a living writing applications for OS X are in a very similar position.

    The picture for Ubuntu and other Linux distribution is further complicated by the fact that they are primarily packagers of other software released by developers that are not responsible to them.

    This is the nature of FOSS. And, it's also the result of the reality that 20 years of history shows Linux users aren't prepared to pay for software. Perhaps if a profit could be made selling Linux distributions, then those distributions could afford to do more in-house testing.

    On the other hand, Linux bug tracking systems are typically public and open, and any user can participate. That doesn't happen on the other side of the fence.
    No, it's not the job of the end user to find and/or report bugs and the developers shouldn't make such an assumption that he or she is. At least I don't remember signing up for this. Can you see the implications here? Assume for a moment that I'm a developer. If it's assumed that the end user will find and report bugs, then why should I fix the bugs in my software before I release it? Why should I do any bug hunting prior to release if I'm assuming that the end user will do my job for me? This gives developers an excuse to release less-than-perfect software. You're placing a burden on the end user that the end user did not voluntarily accept. With all due respect, that can easily be construed as slavery. This is part of the problem, some developers are making this faulty assumption and it's part of the reason that things like this end up in the final release. You can sugar-coat it all you want but it's a nothing more than a faulty assumption.
    Last edited by ardchoille422; November 10th, 2013 at 06:39 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    No, it's not, the end user is under no obligation to find and/or report bugs and the developers shouldn't make such an assume that he or she is. At least I don't remember signing up for this. You're placing a burden on the end user that the end user did not voluntarily accept. With all due respect, that can easily be construed as slavery. This is part of the problem, some folks are making this faulty assumption. You can sugar-coat it all you want but it's a nothing more than a faulty assumption.
    Of course you're not under any obligation to report bugs.
    But then you have no right to complain about the bugs you find if you don't.
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  4. #24
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecat View Post
    Perhaps I'm missing what you are trying to say, but in my 13.10 system:

    Envelope icon -> Contacts -> Click on New Contact button top-left -> New Contact window opens with 6 tabs. There are more than adequate address fields under the Private and Work tabs. I don't see the problem you are describing.
    You must have launched the wrong app, there are no tabs in the Contacts app that ships with Ubuntu 13.10. Another user in this thread found the bug I mentioned.

  5. #25
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    No, it's not, the end user is under no obligation to find and/or report bugs and the developers shouldn't make such an assume that he or she is. At least I don't remember signing up for this. You're placing a burden on the end user that the end user did not voluntarily accept. With all due respect, that can easily be construed as slavery. This is part of the problem, some folks are making this faulty assumption. You can sugar-coat it all you want but it's a nothing more than a faulty assumption.
    It isn't obligatory. it's entirely voluntary, as is almost everything in Linux, including writing software and creating distributions. If you don't want to report bugs, that's fine. No one expects it of you.

    There is a hope -- not an assumption -- that users will file bug reports because, apart from them, there's no one else available to do that except other developers. I used to earn a living managing and coordinating software development. I learned very early on that developers make poor testers. The only way to know how users will *use* software is to give it to them, watch what they do, and ask them to tell you what they didn't like.

    The fact is that even if I, as a user, report a bug in some application included in Ubuntu, and if that bug report is then reported back the chain to the developer currently maintaining it, no guarantee exists that the developer will fix the bug. Most of what's in a distribution is *not* there because someone is paid to write it and fix it.

    The "slavery" remark is w-a-y over the top.

  6. #26
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    You must have launched the wrong app, there are no tabs in the Contacts app that ships with Ubuntu 13.10. Another user in this thread found the bug I mentioned.
    It seems that there are two contacts apps that come as default in 13.10, which is curious. If you type contacts in the dash and open that contacts apps, I can see what you mean. No address field. It's odd that wasn't picked up in pre-release testing.

    However, I suggest you open the other contacts app from the notification area - from the envelope icon - as I describe in my earlier post. You'll find more fields than I know what to do with, including 6 fields for each of private and work addresses.
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  7. #27
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecat View Post
    It seems that there are two contacts apps that come as default in 13.10, which is curious. If you type contacts in the dash and open that contacts apps, I can see what you mean. No address field. It's odd that wasn't picked up in pre-release testing.
    This is a stand-alone contacts app that ships with Ubuntu 13.10. The reason it wasn't fixed prior to release may have been that a developer assumed that the end user will find and report bugs so the developer didn't have to do any bug-hunting before release.. which is part of the reason for this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecat View Post
    However, I suggest you open the other contacts app from the notification area - from the envelope icon - as I describe in my earlier post. You'll find more fields than I know what to do with, including 6 fields for each of private and work addresses.
    If, in that Contacts app, you go to the menu bar at the top of the screen and click "About", you'll find that this is actually the contacts portion of the Thunderbird email app.

  8. #28
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    It isn't obligatory. it's entirely voluntary, as is almost everything in Linux, including writing software and creating distributions. If you don't want to report bugs, that's fine. No one expects it of you.

    There is a hope -- not an assumption -- that users will file bug reports because, apart from them, there's no one else available to do that except other developers. I used to earn a living managing and coordinating software development. I learned very early on that developers make poor testers. The only way to know how users will *use* software is to give it to them, watch what they do, and ask them to tell you what they didn't like.

    The fact is that even if I, as a user, report a bug in some application included in Ubuntu, and if that bug report is then reported back the chain to the developer currently maintaining it, no guarantee exists that the developer will fix the bug. Most of what's in a distribution is *not* there because someone is paid to write it and fix it.

    The "slavery" remark is w-a-y over the top.
    You have a point, please accept my apologies for the slavery remark.

    I just feel that the quality of our software will vastly improve if the developers at least run their apps and use the features prior to release. The missing Address field in the Contacts app tells me that even this practice wasn't followed with this particular app. If the quality of software increases, donations will increase. If donations increase, the developers feel better about developing apps. Product quality equates to happy customers.. and happy customers mean repeat customers as well as free advertising in the form of word-of-mouth praise.

  9. #29
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    The "slavery" remark is w-a-y over the top.
    Yeah; if anything, demanding that developers work harder to make the software meet our needs -- and then give it to us for free -- is slavery.

    I would assume some developer ran that address book app before committing the code. But it probably worked for him because of some assumption or previous configuration unique to his system.

    But here's the kicker; supposedly 20 Million people use Ubuntu. If that's true, than presumably there are at least a few tens of thousands running 13.10 and using that contact app. Yet nobody reported this as a bug. To me that's a bigger head-scratcher than why a developer didn't find this problem.

    I'm willing to bet that, apart from some Canonical employees, every Ubuntu developer was an Ubuntu (or other Linux distro) user who decided to get involved and make it better. That's how open source works. Does every user have to step up and contribute? Nope. But if they can't be bothered, what obligation does anyone else have to bother?

  10. #30
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    [...]presumably there are at least a few tens of thousands running 13.10 and using that contact app. Yet nobody reported this as a bug. To me that's a bigger head-scratcher[...]
    Yes, that is really puzzling.

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