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Thread: How was it tested?

  1. #11
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ian-weisser View Post
    Please don't save up big rants like these. You can benefit much more from a separate thread for each issue.




    By the generally accepted definition of "more work" meaning more keystrokes or more mouse clicks, this is demonstrably not true. Common applications in the launcher bar: one click or keystroke. Occasionally-used applications: two clicks. Rarely-used applications: three clicks and/or a couple keystrokes. Unity gets easier as you use it in two ways - you discover more features, and Zeitgeist moves your most-used applications closer to the top of the search results.

    If you don't like Unity, or you have imprinted on something else, that's okay. You don't have to like it. Nobody will force you to use it, and there are plenty of alternatives. But don't offer this they-are-just-wrong-and-unreasoning ranting. The Ubuntu designers publish their work, ask for feedback, are globally available at the online Ubuntu Developer Summits, and have done a huge amount of real usability research and testing in this field.

    The average user doesn't want to point and click - that's Unity's point. The average user want the machine to be psychic, to adaptively understand what the user wants, and to provide the most common choices first. The point-and-click interface is the hindrance (and is tough on a tiny phone screen, too); the user wants the application at the end of the process, not the process itself.

    It's okay to not like their work. But to reject their work with a rather childish political argument like "it's-merely-their-pet-project" really diminishes your credibility on the topic.

    And I don't even use Unity very often. I imprinted on something else, and I still like something else.



    Well, have your reported these bugs properly?
    Have you helped to confirm other reported bugs?
    Have you helped triage bugs so developers can spend time fixing the bugs instead of clerical work?
    Have you helped test pre-release software? The developers have begged for more testing volunteers, on as many platforms as possible.
    Have you contributed patches? Updated documentation? Packaged? Backported? Joined a LoCo? Helped other users?








    It's not reporting the problem to you. It's reporting the problem back to daisy.ubuntu.com.
    You can check the apport logs to see what was reported.
    You can check http://errors.ubuntu.com to see the most common reported problems. The Ubuntu Bug Squad takes those reports very seriously.




    That seems like a paying-customer attitude that strongly damages your credibility in this community.
    If you are a paying customer, you have the right to complain about a product or ask for a refund.
    But you're not a customer of the Ubuntu project. Canonical didn't earn a penny from your purchase price. You're a member of this community, and nobody in this community cares about unconstructive complaints or rants. Instead, we work together to improve it. Constructive suggestions and discussion are always welcome.

    Who, exactly, do you expect to do all this additional testing...for free? Volunteers. Community members. The testing team. In other words, us.




    I urge you to participate in next week's Ubuntu Developer Summit ( http://summit.ubuntu.com ) and see exactly how Ubuntu gets put together. You may be surprised just how focused and disciplined many teams are, how strong the focus on quality and testing really is, the strategies for better testing, more testing, sustainable testing, better bug reporting, automated bug reporting, and how the feedback process really works (well) in this community.

    Ubuntu's quality has hugely improved in the past few years. System crashes and X crashes are *way* down. Boot is faster, and printing and video are no longer arcane magic. Honestly, given a choice between the system-killing X and print and other bugs we used to have against the rather lightweight missing-text field and other application bugs of today...I'll stick with today's bugs. Maybe you can help us figure out how to test applications more and better before release.

    We're open to new ideas and new contributors like you.
    I have an idea about the beta testing phase. Back when I was helping beta test Ubuntu the beta testers were reporting bugs as they were found. This is good, but I feel it can be better. Issues can be overlooked when a person is focusing on hundreds of items, but more attention to detail can be paid when a person is focusing on a few items.

    Institute beta groups. Groups can be things like Office, Internet, File system, programming, etc.
    Find volunteers to assign to a group, such as the Office group. The people assigned to this group should focus on testing office-related apps, such as the Contacts app or the Libre Office suite. These folks can report any bug they find but their primary focus is the apps that fall within their group. Have them use the app on a day-to-day basis and report what they find.

    If you open the Contacts app that ships with Ubuntu and click the "New" button in the top left corner, you'll see that the text input box for the Address field is missing. I feel this issue would have been resolved prior to release had someone been focusing on Office apps during beta testing. If a large issue such as this cannot be resolved before release then that app is removed from the release, or replaced with a similar app.

    I don't think I've beta tested anything since Dapper (Ubuntu 6.06) so this idea may have been implemented already without my knowledge. Has this type of thing been implemented? If not, can it be implemented? I would definitely be willing to volunteer to be a member of a group.

    The reason I don't do beta testing anymore is because I once looked for a bug report, didn't find one, so I tested an app. Upon finding bugs I attempted to report them only to find that there were several reports made just prior to mine. I feel beta groups would help avoid duplicate work/reports.

  2. #12
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spectre View Post
    You didn't specify what version of Ubuntu you are running but my guess is 13.10 or 13.04 which by design is to have some of the latest cutting edge features and is kind of used as a testing ground for the next LTS Release of Ubuntu.

    If you don't want or need the latest features and want a rock solid version of Ubuntu that is well established and has gone through more testing then stick with the LTS Release.

    Even Windows has many "unknown" bugs when it is first released that aren't discovered until it is released to the general public and it isn't free.

    There are way to many hardware and software combinations that could potentially cause problems to pop up and it is user testing and feedback that helps fix them in a timely manner.
    Yes, I failed to specify the release I am using, I apologize for that. I am running Ubuntu 13.10.

    Perhaps if as much focus and attention to detailed were paid in regular releases as is paid to LTS releases, then the regular releases would improve.

    I wonder if this would benefit Ubuntu:
    * switch from a 6 month release cycle to a yearly release cycle (more time for improvements)
    * Implement a "beta" release alongside the regular releases (more focus on issues)
    * The next regular release would include improvements from the current beta release

    I know that sounds a lot like what Debian does, but have you ever used a stable Debian release? This type of thing seems to be working well for them. It also seems to work well for Red Hat - they use Fedora as the testing ground for the next RHEL.

  3. #13
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    I have an idea about the beta testing phase. Back when I was helping beta test Ubuntu the beta testers were reporting bugs as they were found. This is good, but I feel it can be better. Issues can be overlooked when a person is focusing on hundreds of items, but more attention to detail can be paid when a person is focusing on a few items.

    Institute beta groups. Groups can be things like Office, Internet, File system, programming, etc.
    Find volunteers to assign to a group, such as the Office group. The people assigned to this group should focus on testing office-related apps, such as the Contacts app or the Libre Office suite. These folks can report any bug they find but their primary focus is the apps that fall within their group. Have them use the app on a day-to-day basis and report what they find.

    If you open the Contacts app that ships with Ubuntu and click the "New" button in the top left corner, you'll see that the text input box for the Address field is missing. I feel this issue would have been resolved prior to release had someone been focusing on Office apps during beta testing. If a large issue such as this cannot be resolved before release then that app is removed from the release, or replaced with a similar app.

    I don't think I've beta tested anything since Dapper (Ubuntu 6.06) so this idea may have been implemented already without my knowledge. Has this type of thing been implemented? If not, can it be implemented? I would definitely be willing to volunteer to be a member of a group.

    The reason I don't do beta testing anymore is because I once looked for a bug report, didn't find one, so I tested an app. Upon finding bugs I attempted to report them only to find that there were several reports made just prior to mine. I feel beta groups would help avoid duplicate work/reports.
    I cheerfully withdraw my previous customer-attitude comment. From your detail, it's obvious that you have clearly thought about the matter and have a lot of constructive suggestions about how the community testing resources can be used more effectively.

    THANK YOU for helping test!
    THANK YOU for confirming bug reports!

    There are a few Ubuntu Developer Summit (UDS) sessions coming up next week related to bugs, system quality, application quality, and related topics. Here is a sample:
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...lity-bugsquad/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...s-for-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...atory-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...ting-feedback/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...s-test-review/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...image-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...s-performance/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...grade-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...eapps-testing/

    UDS is online and open to all community members. Sessions can be highly technical and designed to get concurrence from as many stakeholders as possible - to make real decisions.

    I really like the idea of coordinating a set of application-centered teams. But then, I like structure a bit more than some in the community....
    I speculate that some applications may already have a set of ad-hoc testers...PPA users are one example. Specific teams like the Mozilla team are another example.

    Perhaps we just need some volunteer cheerleaders to recruit more testers toward some applications? Or to train new testers? Or growing a few new leaders to coordinate existing testers?

    I wonder if we lack data on how much testing is going on, what's being duplicated, and what's being missed?

  4. #14
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    Re: How was it tested?

    So, I got curious about these bugs, and booted to a live CD. Couldn't reproduce the Nautilus bug, but the address bug is right there big as life. It is a bit of wonder how things like that get through beta testing. As far as I can tell, nobody has reported it as a bug either. Which may be why it hasn't been fixed...

  5. #15
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    Unity requires more steps - Click on Unity launch icon in the left panel > Click on apps icon at the bottom of the unity launch window > click on "See $number more results > scroll to find the desired app > click app_name. I realize that the Ubuntu developers want people to use the HUD, but people want the easiest method and that means point and click, not typing and hope that the user gets the correct app name. The average user doesn't want to type, the average user wants to point and click.. otherwise we'd still be using text-only operating systems. The mouse and trackpad were developed to make things easier, but the Unity developers seem to be stuck in a previous decade.
    The founders of Google would be interested to hear about this.

  6. #16
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    So, I got curious about these bugs, and booted to a live CD. Couldn't reproduce the Nautilus bug, but the address bug is right there big as life. It is a bit of wonder how things like that get through beta testing. As far as I can tell, nobody has reported it as a bug either. Which may be why it hasn't been fixed...
    The Nautilus bug isn't a big deal. However, the address bug is a deal breaker for that app. I'd be willing to bet that this bug would have been caught had there been teams of testers focusing on certain apps.

    The address bug was brought to my attention by a new Ubuntu user, I helped get her off of Windows 7. I asked if she would be interested in filing a bug report and she said that she didn't have time. She also said she would simply use another app. This was one of my points, the average end user doesn't care about filing bug reports, it's easier to just use another app. This is one of the reasons that I feel developers shouldn't rely too heavily on the end user filing bug reports. One can only imagine the number of bug reports that never get filed because of this.

  7. #17
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ian-weisser View Post
    I cheerfully withdraw my previous customer-attitude comment. From your detail, it's obvious that you have clearly thought about the matter and have a lot of constructive suggestions about how the community testing resources can be used more effectively.

    THANK YOU for helping test!
    THANK YOU for confirming bug reports!

    There are a few Ubuntu Developer Summit (UDS) sessions coming up next week related to bugs, system quality, application quality, and related topics. Here is a sample:
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...lity-bugsquad/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...s-for-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...atory-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...ting-feedback/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...s-test-review/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...image-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...s-performance/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...grade-testing/
    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/me...eapps-testing/

    UDS is online and open to all community members. Sessions can be highly technical and designed to get concurrence from as many stakeholders as possible - to make real decisions.

    I really like the idea of coordinating a set of application-centered teams. But then, I like structure a bit more than some in the community....
    I speculate that some applications may already have a set of ad-hoc testers...PPA users are one example. Specific teams like the Mozilla team are another example.

    Perhaps we just need some volunteer cheerleaders to recruit more testers toward some applications? Or to train new testers? Or growing a few new leaders to coordinate existing testers?

    I wonder if we lack data on how much testing is going on, what's being duplicated, and what's being missed?
    I would be VERY interested in joining a beta testing team that has some focus. I don't do well when someone says "here's the Ubuntu release, let me know if there are problems". I work much better if someone says "please test this app or that app. Use it as much as possible and try all settings and feature. Then let me know if you have any problems". I can spend a couple days using only one app and then report back. But, trying to test everything in the distro would take months and bug reports would be filing just prior to the next Ubuntu release. I feel that app=-focused teams would be much more beneficial.

    Good point! Maybe we need to find out exactly who is testing what and for how long. Are they trying all settings and features? When I beta test something, I attack it as if I'm trying to break it.. problems popup easier this way

    How can I get the core Ubuntu folks involved in this thread?

    EDIT: Also, I am hearing impaired. It isn't usually a problem unless videos/conferences lack subtitles or closed captioning, then I am unable to understand what is happening. Are the UDS videos typically subtitled or captioned?
    Last edited by ardchoille422; November 10th, 2013 at 06:31 AM.

  8. #18
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    I hear the phrase "this will be the year Linux overtakes the desktop", I've heard it every year since 2003 and every year it never happens. Linux will never overtake the desktop until the developers learn how to do a better job of testing their apps prior to release. I love Ubuntu but it's a good thing Linux is free, otherwise the user base would be much smaller.
    There are a few reasons why Linux hasn't made it to the desktop but they have little to do with temporary bugs in a rolling distribution. Think about the fact that computers are preloaded with Windows, for instance.
    The number of XP installations still in existence only demonstrate how unwilling people are to change, even if a lot of them are dependent on obsolete unmaintained proprietary software. Yet even an older Linux distribution performs better than XP.

    Your grief is about Ubuntu (or Fedora or Opensuse or...) and the short release cycle. A distribution like Centos or Debian (or even the LTS of Ubuntu) doesn't have this problem.

    Actually, there are paying Linux desktop distributions. I guess they sell, otherwise why bother to make a site like https://www.suse.com/products/desktop/ but then of course this is an LTS solution.

    And finally, Linux is winning in a major way because Android is a shell over Linux. On tablets and smartphones Linux rules.

    So I tend to disagree with your assessment of the reason why Linux doesn't break through on the desktop. It's simply because end users are mostly afraid of ending up with a computer that doesn't work anymore.

  9. #19
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    Contacts
    Symptom: Missing text input field.

    Steps to reproduce:

    1. Open the Contacts app
    2. Click the "New" button in the tool bar
    3. Notice the missing text input field for "Address"


    I don't think this app was tested prior to release.
    Perhaps I'm missing what you are trying to say, but in my 13.10 system:

    Envelope icon -> Contacts -> Click on New Contact button top-left -> New Contact window opens with 6 tabs. There are more than adequate address fields under the Private and Work tabs. I don't see the problem you are describing.

    Please do not PM me about your forum account unless you have been asked to. The correct place to contact an admin about your account is here.

  10. #20
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    Re: How was it tested?

    Quote Originally Posted by ardchoille422 View Post
    I would be VERY interested in joining a beta testing team that has some focus. I don't do well when someone says "here's the Ubuntu release, let me know if there are problems". I work much better if someone says "please test this app or that app. Use it as much as possible and try all settings and feature. Then let me know if you have any problems". I can spend a couple days using only one app and then report back. But, trying to test everything in the distro would take months and bug reports would be filing just prior to the next Ubuntu release. I feel that app=-focused teams would be much more beneficial.

    Good point! Maybe we need to find out exactly who is testing what and for how long. Are they trying all settings and features? When I beta test something, I attack it as if I'm trying to break it.. problems popup easier this way

    How can I get the core Ubuntu folks involved in this thread?

    EDIT: Also, I am hearing impaired. It isn't usually a problem unless videos/conferences lack subtitles or closed captioning, then I am unable to understand what is happening. Are the UDS videos typically subtitled or captioned?
    Seems you're talking about the exploratory testing they're trying to get up and going.

    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/Tester
    http://www.theorangenotebook.com/201...sty-cycle.html

    You've seen the links to the vUDS - that's the best place to go to find what's expected to happen.
    Forum Social IRC Channel
    Xubuntu IRC Support
    Xubuntu Support

    Please do not PM me about Registration issues without having been asked to. I will tell you to post here

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