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Thread: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

  1. #21
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    @JDShu: I understand your counter-arguments, but I just don't see that I have any skin in that game. I am not a developer, so I have no need to commit to X or Mir or Wayland. Kibbitzing in corporate politics goes on all the time but I'm out here in the peanut gallery, so it's a bit pointless. (Like football fans pretending to coach.) When a product is offered, I'll see if I like it. That's no different than the normal state of affairs. If I don't like Mir, I won't use Ubuntu. Nothing difficult there.

    I do, though, agree that there's reason not to take this github post at face value. I've always assumed Canonical would get proprietary support for Mir only by paying for it. Maybe that's in the mix here.
    Last edited by buzzingrobot; September 8th, 2013 at 05:52 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigSilly View Post
    Got to say, I'm no expert on everything that's happening with Mir, Wayland, X etc
    Then here's a quick history lesson.

    2010 - 2011
    - Ubuntu and Canonical announce a shift to Wayland as a replacement for X.
    - Every major distribution agree to back Wayland as the successor to X as a display server
    - Wayland is established as the de facto migration path from X for Linux
    - Work commences on Wayland and XWayland development
    - Not a peep or single commit was made to Wayland by Canonical employees / Ubuntu developers

    2012
    - GTK3 achieves partial Wayland support, Wayland support targeted for Qt in future releases
    - First ever Wayland-only distro (Rebecca Black) released as a testbed for Wayland / Weston + XWayland
    - Not a peep or single commit was made to Wayland by Canonical employees / Ubuntu developers

    2013
    - GTK3 and QT slowly gains additional Wayland support
    - Canonical does an about turn, claims that Wayland is unsuitable for their use, announces 'open' project Mir that was conceived in secret over the years.
    - Wayland and Weston hit v1 release
    - GTK3 and Qt gain support for Wayland at much quicker paces than previously observed
    - Updated version of Rebecca Black released

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeybrain20122
    It will be used by a single distribution if Intel etc make sure that other distribution cannot use it by not supporting Mir upstream. So this is a bit of circular reasoning. Note that the developer who reversed the decision to support Mir is the same one who accepted the patch in the first place, citing "management" to remove the patch. So the developer doesn't have an issue, it is a political decision by the company.
    No other distro intends to use Mir, period. Arch and Gentoo are preparing for Wayland, and so are most of the major RPM-based distributions like OpenSUSE and Fedora. Conservative distributions like Debian will stay on X for the forseeable future until the migration is well and fully tested, and even then, the fact that Debian does not have any Mir packages in unstable, testing or experimental says a lot when there are Wayland packages in those repositories.

    Even official Ubuntu derivatives such as Xubuntu, Lubuntu and Kubuntu refuse to use Mir, preferring instead to stick with X for the forseeable future and eventually migrate over to Wayland once the dust settles. So Mir is every bit a single-distro-only solution. And single-distro-only software = do your own patches yourself.
    Last edited by etna2; September 8th, 2013 at 06:02 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyokuro View Post
    Yes - Intel could but why should they take care about something which get only used in a single distribution - for the said ecosystem where Canonical played a game and lost it?? Canonical have done already great work of fragmentation of said ecosystem and it seems they do not care as they live in their Ubuntu universe but the rest have not forgotten how this Mir debacle started - X11 have layed the foundation for Wayland years before - in their hard work in X11/Mesa and carefully engineering and the road was and is: X11=>wayland. Intel made a statement and I think the decission of NVidia/AMD will not be different as Intels one.
    Okay, as an ordinary user I didn't know the history behind this, nor can I understand well the technical merits and demerits of Wayland vs. Mir.

    From what I've read in various places it seems the Wayland effort has been going on for a few years now, and was generally supported by the major distribution vendors and now I read that even Intel supports it and has a paid developer working on it. Also read though that until recently development on Wayland had been frustratingly slow and that was a part of the reason why Canonical dropped Wayland to start developing their own Mir. People have said that instead Canonical could've contributed to Wayland development and speeded it up, to both their's and the community benefit. Some have responded saying Canonical and Wayland developers couldn't agree on crucial technical features, and it seems they could not get to cooperate, hence Canonical splitting off on their own, especially since they have a tight self-imposed deadline for rolling out mobile/tablet versions, and Wayland dev had either been too slow or not to their wishes, they could've been forced to abandon their mobile/tablet plans. Whew... lots of opinions flung back and forth!

    In the end, although the beauty of open source is that anyone is free to fork/modify, Canonical being a (the?) leading player in the Linux world could perhaps have made more efforts to get behind Wayland and adapt it for their purposes too, rather than splitting off a major portion of the OS. On the other hand though, we now have two competing solutions to the same problem, and ignoring political decisions, each could be an incentive for faster development of the other, and finally one could emerge a clearly better solution. But it seems that the politics is in fact ruining relationships and cooperation, and that's detrimental.

    Quote Originally Posted by etna2 View Post
    If Ubuntu still wants to be called a Linux distribution that it has to expect to play by the established rules and practices in use. Ubuntu can have its own init daemon (Upstart), its own DE (Unity) and anything else that they fancy but when it comes to aspects that concern drivers, it's 'upstream or die', because no major hardware vendor is going to support single distro-only solutions and write special drivers to support that 'special' distribution.

    And Intel has just demonstrated that to Canonical in the bluntest of ways.

    And for the record, if the planned X11 migration path was to move to Mir i'd be saying the same thing about Wayland in this post. But it's not; the official migration path as agreed upon by almost all non-Ubuntu distributions is X11 ---> Wayland, as was decided at least 2 - 3 ago.
    On principle I'd say that any subsystem, no matter how major, could feasibly have alternatives and competition, and this wouldn't necessarily be bad in an ideal situation. But as you say above, we aren't in an ideal situation and are dealing with already cranky upstream manufacturers in no mood to pamper the Linux community. So in this case everyone could've got behind one effort (either Wayland or Mir) just to present a unified face to the driver writers.

    Now we'll probably have most vendors getting behind Wayland, which means Canonical will have to spend extra manpower to keep their version of the drivers competitive and current with upstream. Let's see how it goes.

    Also read elsewhere that this not only affects the bottom rung of the hierarchy (i.e., the drivers) but also the top level, i.e., desktop environments and applications. Many desktop maintainers seem to have the same sentiments as Intel, that they cannot be expected to make their systems work on Mir unless significant help and cooperation is forthcoming from Canonical. Again only time will tell how this is going to play out. In any case, trying times ahead for Canonical.

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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by santosh83 View Post
    Canonical being a (the?) leading player in the Linux world
    What? Canonical isn't even on the list of kernel contributors: http://go.linuxfoundation.org/who-writes-linux-2012. (Unlike Intel which is indeed one of the top contributors.)

    Canonical amounts pretty much to zero in the Linux world. They do not contribute anything upstream, they develop their own solutions that are unnecessary and incompatible with everything else (NIH syndrome) and they completely ignore the community.
    Last edited by prodigy_; September 8th, 2013 at 06:14 PM.

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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    What the hell was wrong with X anyways?
    What the hell was (is) wrong with Wayland anyways?
    Why don't the devs spend their sweet time fixing suspend from command-line instead?
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeybrain20122 View Post
    It will be used by a single distribution if Intel etc make sure that other distribution cannot use it by not supporting Mir upstream (the patch is written by Canonical employee so it is not even that Intel has to do the supporting). So this is a bit of circular reasoning. Note that the developer who reversed the decision to support Mir is the same one who accepted the patch in the first place, citing "management" to remove the patch. So the developer doesn't have an issue, it is a political decision by the company.
    Intel is responsible for their Intel graphic drivers and not for all other parts where MIR support patches have to go in - that's part of various upstream maintainers, Intel is only one of them. As a maintainer they have the right to NAK patches and therefore can influence a project - in this case done via their management (commit) and they show their commitment to Wayland and Canonicals attitude concerning said ecosystem. Nobody can deny that Canonical had a good hand of how different aspects got handled in the past and up till now. MIR is also a political decision of a company and not only a technical decision (if it is which I deny) to get control of it's platform and future direction.

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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by etna2 View Post


    No other distro intends to use Mir, period. Arch and Gentoo are preparing for Wayland, and so are most of the major RPM-based distributions like OpenSUSE and Fedora. Conservative distributions like Debian will stay on X for the forseeable future until the migration is well and fully tested, and even then, the fact that Debian does not have any Mir packages in unstable, testing or experimental says a lot when there are Wayland packages in those repositories.

    Even official Ubuntu derivatives such as Xubuntu, Lubuntu and Kubuntu refuse to use Mir, preferring instead to stick with X for the forseeable future and eventually migrate over to Wayland once the dust settles. So Mir is every bit a single-distro-only solution. And single-distro-only software = do your own patches yourself.
    This can change, especially with debian based disros (RedHat also has vested interest in Wayland) but with Intel being uncooperative in this high handed way surly it will discourage other distros to try out MIr. And btw why is it that there is no complaint about deb vs rpm being fragmenting?

    Other than Kubuntu I am not aware that the other Ubuntu derivatives are committed to Wayland. For example, Xubuntu devs say that they are not using xmir in 13.10 after extensive testing, this is not to say that they never will and the fact that they actually went through the testing suggests that they consider it an option.

    The main reason for Mir, I think, is that Canonical cannot wait for Wayland to mature as it has a tight deadline a bunch of specifications to meet, so it would be hard to rely on upstream developers who have different priorities, time frames and goals, it is really nobody's fault and it doesn't have to turn into a war. Intel's latest decision is not helping especially this is not a technical decision and its own developer appears to have no problem with accepting Canonical's patch (Intel has declared neutrality in the Wayland vs Mir thing earlier if I remember correctly)
    Last edited by monkeybrain20122; September 8th, 2013 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by codingman View Post
    What the hell was wrong with X anyways?
    What the hell was (is) wrong with Wayland anyways?
    Why don't the devs spend their sweet time fixing suspend from command-line instead?


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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Closed for Staff review.
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    Re: "Intel Will Not Support Ubuntu's XMir" What will be the consequences?

    Re-opened.

    Let's see if we can have a discussion without the trolling.

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