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Thread: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

  1. #71
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    The most experienced people in developing a display server for Linux, are not actually writing one to ship with any distros. Who, then, do they expect to write the real end-user server
    They expect other to use Weston or to implement support for the protocol by themselve.
    Last edited by EgoGratis; June 30th, 2013 at 02:29 PM.

  2. #72
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdalbum View Post
    Actually one of the other worrying things about Weston is that it's only a "reference implementation". As long as Weston works, no matter how slow or few-featured or difficult-to-set-up it is, that's all the developers really need to do because it's only intended as a "reference" for other developers to actually implement a Wayland server.

    AFAIK Weston and one man's fork of it are the only Wayland servers available. In other words, if Weston is not meant as an end-user product, and there are no end-user Wayland display servers currently, how much longer will we have to wait for one to actually get developed?
    "Reference implementation" does not mean it can't be suitable for the end user; several popular programs in regular use are reference implementation -- for example, Bind, ISC dhcp server, and... oh yeah, Xorg. Look'em up if you don't believe me.

    Rest assured that whatever ends up shipping with distros will be written and edited to perform well, regardless of whether it's a reference implementation or not.

  3. #73
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeybrain2012 View Post
    Not sure that I would agree. DE is mostly a cosmetic thing and it is rather trivial to swap one out for another, this time we are talking about core engineering of the system.

    I will be excited to try it out too, but "trying it out" means that you have other options if it doesn't work and with 13.04 eol there is no option unless you downgrade to 12.04 or 12.10, or quit Ubuntu. Canonical is not going to get more testers (not enthusiastic ones anyway) by trying to force a (very)immature technology on a release and removing the option of not upgrading.
    A very important point indeed. This is not going to be as much fun as having a go at it and then being able to say "Well, it's not my thing" and installing something else. If it works that will be great, but if it doesn't Canonical is going to continue pushing it out with every new release regardless and they aren't going to include alternatives (fallbacks like XMir and X11 are not alternatives, they're sub-optimal stop-gap solutions).
    Quote Originally Posted by EgoGratis View Post
    No. On ARM devices maybe in a way but the test ATM would probably not tell us much regarding classical desktop DEs used on desktop PC.
    So this is the state of Mir: it doesn't work with the DE it's being designed for. Not yet. Not at all. Will it be ready for 13.10? Probably not, but it's shipping out anyway as a testbed for 14.04. Considering the size and experience of the team developing Mir, will there be a full-fledged Unity/Mir desktop by the time 14.04 comes out? Anyone good with crystal balls?
    EGL.
    I've been reading up on this myself. As the underlying technology behind both, it suggests that a driver that supports either should support both. There are technical differences between Wayland and Mir that I don't fully comprehend however, and I'm not certain that EGL support alone dictates support for both display servers. I hope it does, I really really hope it does.
    I don't agree because today i can buy most of the cards from this 2 companies and expect them to work under Linux. This does show both companies have quite strong motivation to support Linux given the fact what market share Linux has on the desktop.
    There's some history you should be aware of. Not many years ago, ATI rebased their binary driver and dropped legacy support for a number of cards. Some of those cards had been on the market for less than a year--my Radeon X1550 among them. They did not provide a separate legacy driver and the previously released driver was incompatible with upcoming releases of Xorg. It became impossible for many users, including myself, to upgrade Xorg and therefore to upgrade our distributions without switching to the FOSS driver. The state of the FOSS driver at the time was atrocious. I tried, for about a week, but my PC became unusable for even the most basic purposes. On the other hand ATI has been kind enough to release a lot of programming specs and their developers have even made contributions to FOSS. The ATI FOSS driver is in a much better state lately. Nvidia strictly does not contribute to FOSS nor do they release programming specs for FOSS developers to work with. A few months back Linus Torvalds exploded on Nvidia in frustration over their lack of dedication to linux. The FOSS drivers for nvidia are pure reverse engineering. On the other hand, they are dedicated to providing binary drivers to support both modern and legacy cards and they have been quick to provide linux users with functionality and performance on-par with Windows (we even got FXAA first). I've tried the FOSS drivers, which aren't too bad, but I prefer the binary for obvious reasons. Both companies release a binary driver for linux, but in some ways aren't taking FOSS or FOSS OS users seriously eg are not taking linux seriously, but this is changing. Nvidia replied to Torvalds that they are quite dedicated to supporting linux through their proprietary, closed-source drivers and ATI continues to support FOSS development.
    Quote Originally Posted by tartalo View Post
    But they would have developed something compatible with the protocol everyone else is using, no one would be angry with Canonical, quite the opposite, and their work would be truly reusable.
    Bullseye.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdalbum View Post
    Wayland is the protocol.

    Weston is the server.

    Wayland is to Weston, like X11 is to Xorg.
    I'm not sure this analogy works out. The underlying technology is not the same, which was the purpose of developing Wayland. Wayland is both the protocol and the server. Weston is a compositor, but not quite like X compositors (compiz, compton, etc).
    AFAIK Weston and one man's fork of it are the only Wayland servers available.
    KWin and Mutter compositors are in development. Wayland/KWin will bring Wayland support to KDE and Wayland/Mutter could support a lot of different desktops (any GNOME derivatives like MATE, Cinnamon, Pantheon, Gnome Classic, etc).
    Mir is at least intended as the end-user server, not just "we'll leave it to someone else to write that".
    Not quite. Mir isn't something end-users should even be aware of. Unity is intended be the DE/compositor(?) running on top of Mir, and it isn't intended to be a reference implementation. Canonical is going to develop a full product, which will be convenient for users if it comes together, but cumbersome for developers to port to other desktops. Weston serves to provide thorough examples and documentation for working with Wayland rather than a traditional desktop. There will be no such help available to developers who might want to develop DEs based on Mir.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdalbum View Post
    That's fine, but when comparing the progress and "readiness" of Mir versus Wayland, you have to remember that Weston is not the end-user product. Mir is. People saying "They should just use Wayland" are forgetting that there is no end-user display server for Wayland.
    There's no end-user compositor. Wayland is the display server; it's more or less ready--especially compared to Mir. Currently KDE, GNOME, Tizen, and several other projects are working on compositor implementations for end-users.
    Plus of course, Wayland/Weston's developers are much the same people as who have worked on Xorg in recent years. The most experienced people in developing a display server for Linux, are not actually writing one to ship with any distros. Who, then, do they expect to write the real end-user server?
    Everyone else, and they'll probably be contributing as well. At least, they've provided Weston to serve as a Wayland compositor handbook that will help other developers create their own. Mir does not and likely will not have such useful examples to work with.
    Last edited by quequotion; July 1st, 2013 at 06:57 AM. Reason: removed spammer quote; so the last line needed to go as well (didn't make sense anymore)

  4. #74
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Nvidi...l-363955.shtml

    it is a bit old news, but it worths mentioning. that is due to the fact that ubuntu seems to have about half of the market share in the linux users.
    dell inspiron 1521, AMD Turion, ATI mobility radeon x1270.

  5. #75
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    I've got Unity running on Mir on my system, I'd ask the op, why he hasn't set up an extra partition to try it out himself, instead of posting second hand information. I've tried video from all the providers, and done some photo editing, and aside from the two cursors, and a bit of a delay during keyboard input, for pre-alpha software, it works pretty well.

    I'd also like to ask the op what his experiences with a Rebecca Black are, as it is the only working implementation of wayland, that is available from any source.

    He himself admits he doesn't like change, but you can't be a proper curmudgeon until you have experienced things you are complaining about yourself.
    Last edited by cariboo; July 1st, 2013 at 09:15 AM.

  6. #76
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by cariboo907 View Post
    I've got Unity running on Mir on my system, I'd ask the op, why he hasn't set up an extra partition to try it out himself, instead of posting second hand information. I've tried video from all the providers, and done some photo editing, and aside from the two cursors, and a bit of a delay during keyboard input, for pre-alpha software, it works pretty well.
    For some reason it bothers me when people use "op" in a forum where people don't post anonymously. I have a name, It's quequotion. In a pinch qq is fine (no relation to the chinese social network).
    You're running Unity/Mir; not Unity/XMir? No one has posted any tests of this DE/DS. You may be the only person with this working. Please tell us more about your configuration.
    As for setting up a test system, I'll get around to it eventually. This would mean:
    1. Wiping and repartitioning my backup drive (the main drive is a RAID:0 which I dare not disturb), and I don't like to go without a backup very long.
    2. Doing it in a virtual machine (not at all the most reliable way to test anything, let alone a display server).
    3. Running the OS from a Live CD or a USB stick, which will lag.
    I'd also like to ask the op what his experiences with a Rebecca Black are, as it is the only working implementation of wayland, that is available from any source.
    Then ask me in the 2nd person and not the 3rd.
    I'll see if I can run it from a Live CD.
    He himself admits he doesn't like change
    Did I say that? I don't really feel that way. Change can be good, when change is progressive. I don't think that Mir is a progressive change. I think it is going to isolate Ubuntu, and that isn't good for anybody.
    until you have experienced things you are complaining about yourself.
    You have a point. I should run some tests. Eventually I will, but I also have a job and a personal life. It takes far less time to post messages about my concerns than to setup a testbed system for punishment. It's also far less painful.

    It's also important to me that the dsiplay server suppport proprietary binary drivers. Another reason for my opposition to Mir is that I hoped Canonical would back Wayland and encourage manufactures to do so as well. There's no guarantee that support for Mir will mean support for Wayland, so the key moment to reverse course is now, before Mir gets pushed onto millions of desktops.

  7. #77
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by cariboo907 View Post
    Rebecca Black (...) is the only working implementation of wayland, that is available from any source.
    If you fell inclined to test the Wayland waters there are currently several places you could start, these are some that I could remember, not that I tried them personally:

    * Maui is using Wayland today.

    * Kwin developer Martin Graeßlin explained how to test KDE Plasma on Wayland yourself, he does clearly warn that it's a hack.

    * Arch Linux offers the possibility to use XWayland, it will replace your real X.

    * The library that will in theory allow Mir to use Android drivers, libhybris, was actually developed for Wayland by a Jolla engineer, Jolla is a company created by ex-Nokia engineers that worked on Meego, and you can preorder now the phone they will release towards the end of this year. Their OS, Sailfish OS, is based on Mer. If you know what you are doing Mer is an appropriate testbed for Wayland.

    * The official Plasma Active image is based on Mer too.

    * This summer Phones and Tablets that use Tizen will hit the market. It's possible to run Elightenment on Wayland.

    Did I forget anyone?

  8. #78
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    This is not going to be as much fun as having a go at it and then being able to say "Well, it's not my thing" and installing something else.
    Sure it will be. Probably it will be more fun because you will have much more choices when it comes to display servers and currently you don't have that.

    So this is the state of Mir: it doesn't work with the DE it's being designed for. Not yet. Not at all. Will it be ready for 13.10? Probably not, but it's shipping out anyway as a testbed for 14.04. Considering the size and experience of the team developing Mir, will there be a full-fledged Unity/Mir desktop by the time 14.04 comes out? Anyone good with crystal balls?
    Nobody said Unity 8 on Mir will be ready for Ubuntu 13.10 desktop (PC) usage by default. In Ubuntu 13.10 Unity 7 on top of XMir + Mir will be used. You where asking about benchmarks for pure Unity (8) on top of Mir and i answered to that! You don't need a crystal ball for that you can look back and see for your self what the question was.

    Not many years ago, ATI rebased their binary driver and dropped legacy support for a number of cards. Some of those cards had been on the market for less than a year--my Radeon X1550 among them. They did not provide a separate legacy driver and the previously released driver was incompatible with upcoming releases of Xorg. It became impossible for many users, including myself, to upgrade Xorg and therefore to upgrade our distributions without switching to the FOSS driver.
    Yes i am well aware of that and i personally don't have any issues with that. This older cards are (officially) supported through FOSS driver and this works for me and because of that FOSS driver improved quite a bit and for that transitional phase you didn't have to upgrade Ubuntu you could use LTS release for a year or two with the blob and now when FOSS driver will get decent dynamic power management... Well now FOSS driver it's probably better option for this older cards than blob ever was.

    Nvidia strictly does not contribute to FOSS nor do they release programming specs for FOSS developers to work with.
    Yes they should do more when it comes to FOSS driver i agree but i can still use Linux + their cards as i said and expect it to work (except multi GPU Optimums like hardware).

    And i will say it again ATM i do believe mayor GPU players have strong interest in providing decent Linux support! This is the point i was making and i don't agree mayor GPU players don't have strong interest in providing decent Linux support.

    Bullseye.
    And then you (and other DEs too) would be more than happy to use Unity + Mir if Wayland compatibility would be maintained. Are you really sure because i doubt that!

    For some reason it bothers me when people use "op" in a forum where people don't post anonymously.
    Standard procedure these days and i don't see nothing wrong with that.
    Last edited by EgoGratis; July 1st, 2013 at 06:04 PM.

  9. #79
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoGratis View Post
    Sure it will be. Probably it will be more fun because you will have much more choices when it comes to display servers and currently you don't have that.
    More choices perhaps, but reconfiguring a display server is not something you ever want end users to be doing. I have experience with that kind of thing, but it won't be conceivable for new users who are presented with a clumsy Unity/XMir desktop; it will be easier for them to install Windows and that is what they will do.
    Nobody said Unity 8 on Mir will be ready for Ubuntu 13.10 desktop (PC) usage by default. In Ubuntu 13.10 Unity 7 on top of XMir + Mir will be used. You where asking about benchmarks for pure Unity (8) on top of Mir and i answered to that! You don't need a crystal ball for that you can look back and see for your self what the question was.
    No one has provided benchmarks for Unity/Mir because only one person is even running that DE. I made a point of not specifying version numbers to avoid confusion. Less important that what version of Unity and what version of Mir may be working in the future is the fact that current versions do not appear to be ready. In concession, one user has reported running some kind of true Unity/Mir desktop that seems to be functional, but it certainly doesn't have binary driver support and a number of applications are likely unstable.
    Yes they should do more when it comes to FOSS driver i agree but i can still use Linux + their cards as i said and expect it to work (except multi GPU Optimums like hardware). And i will say it again ATM i do believe mayor GPU players have strong interest in providing decent Linux support! This is the point i was making and i don't agree mayor GPU players don't have strong interest in providing decent Linux support.
    I wouldn't mistake service for sincerity. They will play along only if GNU/Linux maintains a decent market share.
    And then you (and other DEs too) would be more than happy to use Unity + Mir if Wayland compatibility would be maintained. Are you really sure because i doubt that!
    Your comment doesn't correlate to the statements on this point. Unity/Mir and Wayland compatibility is another, distinct issue. The comment I had replied to here pointed out that if Canonical had stuck to their commitment to develop and support Wayland then there would be no controversy. There would be no conflict or users and developers upset about this issue as Mir would never have existed.
    Standard procedure these days and i don't see nothing wrong with that.
    Standard procedure on 4chan because it doesn't require names. It worries me to see customs from 4chan spread out across the internet. That is not a place where people should be learning manners or behavior.

  10. #80
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Your comment doesn't correlate to the statements on this point. Unity/Mir and Wayland compatibility is another, distinct issue. The comment I had replied to here pointed out that if Canonical had stuck to their commitment to develop and support Wayland then there would be no controversy. There would be no conflict or users and developers upset about this issue as Mir would never have existed.
    But you and other DEs would probably still not be using it? It's a bit pointless then to debate strongly over the decisions made isn't it?

    P.S. First somebody has to beat X11/Xorg in a meaningful way, EGL drivers need to evolve, Wayland protocol needs to mature, Mir needs to mature... then we will talk again what makes sense and what not.

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