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Thread: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

  1. #51
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    XMir will ship in 14.04. Window Managers/Desktops that don't support Mir natively will just use XMir and everything works.
    1. At how much performance cost? (We need empirical data, not theory; I know of only one developer on one computer that has any so far.)
    2. Are you really sure everything works? (This is a theory that has been tested perhaps twice by one person on one computer.)
    3. When/How will proprietary drivers get support? (The FOSS drivers aren't enough for most people with a discrete card.)
    4. Is this a plan to gradually convince people to port to Mir? (Mir will have to prove itself to be equal to or better than Wayland, and Canonical will have to do some very creative marketing to win back the devs of other DEs).

  2. #52
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    I bet you can't give 100% answers if i ask you the same about Wayland or better yet compositor talking Wayland. In the end i do imagine you will be able to test both by yourself and decide. Unity 8 probably won't support X11 anymore and you will not be able to use it on XWayland for example and this is the only limitation i see ATM.

    P.S. But first we have to get there.
    Last edited by EgoGratis; June 28th, 2013 at 11:43 PM.

  3. #53
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    1. At how much performance cost? (We need empirical data, not theory; I know of only one developer on one computer that has any so far.)
    Within 10% so far, without optimization: http://www.olli-ries.com/first-mir-benchmarks/

    2. Are you really sure everything works? (This is a theory that has been tested perhaps twice by one person on one computer.)
    It'll land in Saucy soon, so I would say that it probably works. And if things don't work, we'll fix them.

    3. When/How will proprietary drivers get support? (The FOSS drivers aren't enough for most people with a discrete card.)
    Canonical have stated multiple times that they are talking to AMD/Nvidia for drivers, so I assume that discussions are happening.

    4. Is this a plan to gradually convince people to port to Mir? (Mir will have to prove itself to be equal to or better than Wayland, and Canonical will have to do some very creative marketing to win back the devs of other DEs).
    Given the nature of Free Software I expect people will enable these desktops to work on Mir in the future.

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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    It'll land in Saucy soon,
    I am running Saucy on Xmir right now. And I plan to put in an install of all the flavours and add Xmir just to prove that it can be done. The only issue I see is that there is a slight delay in typing response and moving the insertion point in documents.

    From information recently released if a video card cannot support Xmir then an installation will use Xserver as fallback. So, all users are catered for.

    Regards.
    It is a machine. It is more stupid than we are. It will not stop us from doing stupid things.
    Ubuntu user #33,200. Linux user #530,530


  5. #55
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    Within 10% so far, without optimization: http://www.olli-ries.com/first-mir-benchmarks/
    Interesting. These tests compare Unity/X and Unity/XMir. I'm surprised to see Unity/Mir left out as his tests are often so thorough. Is real Unity/Mir desktop functioning yet? I really wanted to know about the performance hit for non-Unity DEs with XMir however. Perhaps grahammechanical will have those statistics for us later.
    It'll land in Saucy soon, so I would say that it probably works. And if things don't work, we'll fix them.
    Be careful what you assume. I've been tragically disappointed by show-stopping, if-I-weren't-a-geek-I'd-just-give-up-on-linux-forever, bugs on nearly every release date. In no particular order, the top three are: broken boot sequence, broken display system, or broken device drivers; always resulting in an unusable PC, and often leaving the system in an undiagnosable state. I usually end up wiping my upgraded installation and trying a fresh install, only to get the same bugs. When I finally do track down what was wrong, they have always been known bugs that were not listed in the release notes, every time. Canonical has made it clear that they're going to ship 13.10 with an incomplete Mir. I think they should make it very clear that this release is for alpha testing and not to be used on anyone's everyday computer because it's going to wreak havoc on users who will be in over their heads in some very unfamiliar waters; I wouldn't even publish the release on the main site.
    Canonical have stated multiple times that they are talking to AMD/Nvidia for drivers, so I assume that discussions are happening.
    Indeed they have. I'd like to hear something from the manufacturers as well, but there's not been as much as whisper. The closest I could find was this inappropriately titled Phoronix article which is pure conjecture and likely to start rumours. If the manufacturers are indeed involved, perhaps they have reasons for keeping quiet.
    Given the nature of Free Software I expect people will enable these desktops to work on Mir in the future.
    It won't be easy, if possible at all. Canonical's sudden flop on Wayland has garnered resentment from the very people who would be responsible for making those ports happen--they aren't going to be shaking hands with Mr. Shuttleworth anytime soon.
    Last edited by quequotion; June 29th, 2013 at 04:51 AM.

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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoGratis View Post
    I wouldn't call it FUD it's just majority of users don't have needed information yet...
    To me this is just more of the same thing we saw, when Unity first became the default DE. I'm personally excited by this development, and I'm in the process of setting up another Saucy partition, in order to try out the ppas.

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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    If negotiations between Canonical and AMD/Nvidia resulted in binary blobs that support both Mir and Wayland this would be a big plus. At least I'd be able to have a modern display server with my DE of choice and no compatibility layer sapping the performance. There's a rumour that Nvidia was working on a unified EGL driver that could support both, but no hard evidence as far as I've seen.

    If they result in binary drivers that support only Mir and not Wayland, I don't think I'll be the only one even more upset about the situation. What I've read suggests that technologically, this would be a rediculous thing to do and that supporting one almost necessitates supporting both. It seems that it's unclear to what degree they will require different driver implementations, if any. Neither company is strongly motivated to support linux, and particularly to support three different display servers. I fear that if Mir support comes to the binary blobs without Wayland support, then there never will be Wayland support.

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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by cariboo907 View Post
    To me this is just more of the same thing we saw, when Unity first became the default DE. I'm personally excited by this development, and I'm in the process of setting up another Saucy partition, in order to try out the ppas.
    You may even recall me in particular being rather upset, and rather vocal in opposition to Unity. In the end, I found another desktop to use (actually I pieced two together). I still don't like Unity, although it finally caught up to its hype around version 5. If Ubuntu/Mir doesn't provide a way for me to run the DE of my choice without a compatibility layer; I'll find another OS to use. I don't expect the first versions of Mir to be much more impressive than the first versions of Unity, particularly because Canonical is hyping it exactly the same way.

    I'm not opposed to Mir's development out of fear or uncertainty or doubt, I am opposed to Mir's development from bitter and disappointing experience.

    In fact, I'm probably not going to upgrade until the next LTS. Hopefully things will have changed and improved by then. I still have hope that Canonical will make room for Wayland when it's ready. I have no intention of using Mir unless it can prove itself better or equal to Wayland in design and functionality. Wayland still has the upper hand in being more complete and having more support.
    Last edited by quequotion; June 29th, 2013 at 05:28 AM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    Well consider Mir is still new, but who knows what it can bring.
    If Mir is a failure then it will fail, as long as fallbacks exist I think we will be fine.

  10. #60
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    Re: Mir: Stop this train before it derails Ubuntu.

    I am not sure what is an "unsupported" card. I think all cards are supported just not all drivers. Does it mean that if you have anything other than an Intel card it will fall back to X in 13.10, assuming you will use the proprietary driver (even though you may not)?

    It seems reckless to put xmir on 13.10 and simultaneously cutting short support of 13.04. So without speculating on what 14.04 will be like some people will be left with a broken system for 3 months unless downgrading to 12.04 or 12.10. It is not a pleasant prospect (many bug fixes in Unity 7 have not been backported to Precise and I doubt that they ever will be)
    Last edited by monkeybrain2012; June 29th, 2013 at 05:13 PM.

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