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Thread: Enough with the mobile stuff...

  1. #11
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    Thanks for the thoughtful responses. My 2 cents:

    Quote Originally Posted by leecheroflife View Post
    The ability to dock your phone and fire up a full fledged ubuntu desktop? I think that's something worth investing in
    I absolutely LOVE that idea and wanted it the first time I saw it. An Android phone AND an ubuntu desktop in combination....sweet. But as far as I know that idea is dead. The stuff I am referring to as a fatal attraction is the Ubuntu mobile/table OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by grahammechanical View Post
    Canonical needs to make money not just to pay back this debt, which I suspect is owed to Mark Shuttleworth, but to continue supporting Ubuntu.
    I agree and support pretty much anything Canonical does to make money -- from the desktop and server products, both of which are good and could be the best. As whatthefunk says, I believe their chances of making money with a mobile OS is zero. I believe that they could make lots of money with a great desktop product for consumers and/or businesses and a great server product for business/cloud (which they are).

    Quote Originally Posted by grahammechanical View Post
    The look of the Ubuntu 10.10 desktop was not so different from the look of the Windows 98 desktop. which in turn was very similar to the Windows 3 desktop. Whether you preferred that way of doing things or not, is besides the point. That look and way of working had no where to go. What work needed to be done on it, in your opinion?
    Tons and tons of work. Some of which was done and it was great. Gnome was ok, Unity is good and IMO a huge improvement, but overall Ubuntu on the desktop is not great. Why not? Go to brainstorm and check out the top 100 ideas...that's why. No matter how frustrated I got with Unity early on I hung tough and defended it because the desktop needed a do-over and Canonical had/has the only real thoughtful approach to revamping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeybrain2012 View Post
    While I don't agree that the desktop is dying, but its market has definitely shrinked quit a bit because of mobile. As devices are getting more and more powerful the trend will continue...
    Quote Originally Posted by grahammechanical View Post
    Desktop sales are falling.
    Desktop computer sales are waning, but its not just a mad rush FROM the desktop TO the mobile world. Not a single person I know, nor any employee I know and my large clients is anywhere even close to being able to function without a desktop computer. The desktop OS is here to stay: http://www.zdnet.com/the-real-reason...ng-7000013878/

    Quote Originally Posted by grahammechanical View Post
    If you really value the gift of Ubuntu you will be tolerant of Canonical doing all this mobile stuff for 12 - 18 months. Is that such a hard thing to do? The desktop is not being neglected by any means. Unity 8 - Next will be in 13.10 and the whole convergence process should be more or less complete by 14.04. And then we will know if Canonical has a future. How much development work would be done on the Ubuntu desktop distribution if it was completely developed by community volunteers? Just think about that.
    I basically agree with your sentiments here. A financially successful Canonical is the only way to get the desktop OS I want. If mobile gets them there then that's great...so perhaps I will hang on and wait and see. I just feel that continuing to focus on the desktop could pay huge dividends near term by converting huge companies from Windows XP and Win7 to a more stable, reliable, bug-free and feature rich Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    Making Ubuntu work on phones and tablets is part of making the desktop completely awesome, it's just not there yet.
    Other than the financial reasons we discussed, how does the mobile work improve the desktop? (I seriously asking, not being a smart-ass...) I don't get it.
    Last edited by HDave; June 14th, 2013 at 01:44 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    Also, as much as Windows 8 gets flamed, it's sold over 60 million copies, Ubuntu has yet to do that well, barely even a third of that number if that.

    It's a chance to lead in a market that is still new and where there is no clear winner and we should challenge ourselves to do a better job at it than Microsoft.

    Even if you don't care about mobile you still get the performance and footprint improvements that getting Ubuntu to run on slower devices gets you, like this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ry/036436.html
    The mobile market is anything but new...new doesnt last very long in the technology world. Windows 8 has sold 60 million copies because Windows is still the best known desktop OS and it comes preinstalled on nearly every computer that isnt an Apple. Linux distributions have been trying to enter this market for over a decade and have never succeeded. Right now, Apple and Google are the leaders in the mobile world and almost every device comes with one of these two preinstalled. Windows has been trying to break into this market but has so far been completely unsuccessful. What makes you think Ubuntu will be any better? From a manufacturers perspective, why would they choose Ubuntu OS (which is unknown to most people, has few mobile apps, is known for its sudden major changes, and doesnt have the finances for development that other companies do) over Android which has become a household name? As far as I can see, Ubuntu for mobile is just another smartphone OS. There is little that makes it stand out from the rest.

  3. #13
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    Other than the financial reasons we discussed, how does the mobile work improve the desktop? (I seriously asking, not being a smart-ass...) I don't get it.
    Performance and memory improvements off the bat: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ry/036436.html

    Mobile also forced us to finally:

    - Invest in a modern display server.
    - Strip down the indicator and other frameworks to fit on smaller devices.
    - Rewrite lenses in not-Python so they are performant.
    - Fix packaging so users can upgrade applications without having to upgrade their entire operating system.
    - And do so in a way that is done in a containerized manner so messed up apps can't break the entire system like current packages can.
    - Give app developers a way to publish their applications automatically without blocking on humans reviewing complicated packages.
    - Finally pick one IDE and one platform (Qt/QML) so we can make....
    - A real Software Development Kit (SDK) like our competitors have had for decades.

    Sure those things could have happened with without mobile and touch but it helps drive bringing those things to the desktop.

  4. #14
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by whatthefunk View Post
    Right now, Apple and Google are the leaders in the mobile world and almost every device comes with one of these two preinstalled. Windows has been trying to break into this market but has so far been completely unsuccessful. What makes you think Ubuntu will be any better?
    That's like saying Apple should have never tried because Nokia and Blackberry dominated prior to iphone, and that Android shouldn't have tried because iOS was dominant, or that Google shouldn't have tried because everyone else was using Alta Vista. There's always churn in mobile and I don't like the walled garden of iOS or the sluggishness of Android; what's wrong with providing people an alternative?

  5. #15
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    This is complex question and there is no easy answer but i do see some potential for loose ends:

    1.) Shifting focus completely to mobile devices probably is/could be counterproductive if:

    a.) Decisions/compromises that makes sense on mobile platforms start to undermine the desktop position.

    For example recent Firefox/Chromium debates would probably not happen if desktop would still be the main focus. Compiz would probably not be replaced with something else if desktop would be the focus...

    I am not saying replacing Firefox with Chromium and ditching Compiz would/will necessary end up bad but it could. Here i do see some risk probably taken because mobile is the focus.

    b.) The desire to build new apps that will in the end represent Ubuntu DE could end up OK but it could end up as something that wasted a lot of limited efforts with no clear benefit. It's hard in my opinion to compete with other FOSS apps and beat them and i do wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to approach 3rd party upstream and collaborate.

    2.) Ubuntu did start to create tension on the desktop in my opinion and i wonder if now is the time to give the appearance focus has shifted or if it would be better to give the appearance desktop is more important today than it has ever been.

    But regardless the focus shifted and now the push has to be made without second thoughts... i crossed my fingers and i wish this strategy succeeds. Convergence is the new strategy now and it might work yes but it is important in my opinion it will start to boost Ubuntu Desktop in foreseeable future and not to undermine it in any meaningful/measurable way!

    P.S. The bright side is with convergence strategy Ubuntu probably has better shot to attract OEMs and to achieve this goal yes it's probably worth taking a bit of the risk indeed.
    Last edited by EgoGratis; June 14th, 2013 at 03:11 AM.

  6. #16
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    If one's dissatisfied with Ubuntu on their desktop, why continue using or arguing about it? With all the available Linux alternatives, it seems a waste of time to argue over that which Canonical has already decided. Canonical's focus is on a very competitive mobile market, with the intent of profiting (not suggesting their profiting is good or bad). I seriously doubt, that any discussion/arguments here will impact said decision.

    Thus, logic might suggest that one accept the fact that Canonical has made their decision and either seek an alternative or use what's being offered. As for which mobile product will become the next desirable gadget, as whatthefunk points out and I totally agree with:

    The mobile market is anything but new...new doesnt last very long in the technology world.
    Just my $0.02
    "All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward."
    Ellen Glasgow

  7. #17
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    I think the mobile OS and the desktop advancements are both worthwhile projects . You won't get very far unless you do a great job as judged by the wider user groups, not just those developing the code. Something simple like Libre Office is doing now . The download page asks to pay just a little bit of money. Rather than spend time reading how to get past it, lots of folks will just pay if it isn't much. There are lots of grumbles about the changes to the desktop out there from lots of people, and some I agree with. I just hope folks can listen without taking offence, because we all appreciate your work. It really needs to pass the give it to your granddad test as well those that need to get lots of stuff done and fast. I used to setup Ubuntu for folks with a few Compiz tricks installed and leave them thinking why would you pick anything else. Now I don't , because I don't want to get stuck explaining how to drive it for 40 mins.

  8. #18
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    Performance and memory improvements off the bat: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ry/036436.html

    Mobile also forced us to finally:

    - Invest in a modern display server.
    - Strip down the indicator and other frameworks to fit on smaller devices.
    - Rewrite lenses in not-Python so they are performant.
    - Fix packaging so users can upgrade applications without having to upgrade their entire operating system.
    - And do so in a way that is done in a containerized manner so messed up apps can't break the entire system like current packages can.
    - Give app developers a way to publish their applications automatically without blocking on humans reviewing complicated packages.
    - Finally pick one IDE and one platform (Qt/QML) so we can make....
    - A real Software Development Kit (SDK) like our competitors have had for decades.

    Sure those things could have happened with without mobile and touch but it helps drive bringing those things to the desktop.
    ok - this kind of stuff gives me some hope. I guess I didn't realize that there was this overlap between the mobile and desktop versions of Ubuntu. If you are saying that once the convergence is done, every new app and new improvement will make all four (desktop/server/phone/tablet) better then I can get that -- what it means is that this convergence project is a temporary distraction.

    However, I still find it hard to imagine myself being more drawn to Ubuntu on my tablet than Android. With the exception of big-screen-multi-window-and-keyboard apps (Eclipse, Spreadsheets, VMWare, Calibre, Teamviewer, Lightworks, Openshot, etc.) I prefer the Android versions of everything over Ubuntu. And by prefer, i mean VASTLY prefer, and by everything I mean EVERYTHING (media apps, music apps, email apps, travel apps, games, etc.). Will the Ubuntu community be able to provide equal or better versions of those apps? I think that is THE question because I don't see many Android/iOS application vendors porting to Ubuntu because they are already reticent to port to Windows mobile. (Unless somebody here can say that porting from Android to Ubuntu is easy/straightfoward....)

    Bear in mind here that windows mobile is in last place and is considered to be struggling heavily because it only has 6 million new mobile users per quarter. How many years do we think it will take Ubuntu to get to 6 million mobile users, let alone that many per quarter? And this is for the losers!!!!

    In the end though, I think Canonical doesn't have to win in mobile, they just have to compete well enough to make some real money. If that success helps the desktop environment, then I am all for it. However, given that there is hundreds of millions of dollars to be made in the corporate world by getting businesses to switch from Windows to Ubuntu, that seemed to me to more the lower risk route, but it is going to (continue to) require major investment on the desktop platform to get there.

    P.S. -- I was wrong up above, the Ubuntu for Android initiative is not dead (http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/ubuntu-for-android), but I can't find it on any of the mobile devices at Verzion (yet).
    Last edited by HDave; June 14th, 2013 at 03:04 PM.

  9. #19
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    However, I still find it hard to imagine myself being more drawn to Ubuntu on my tablet than Android. With the exception of big-screen-multi-window-and-keyboard apps (Eclipse, Spreadsheets, VMWare, Calibre, Teamviewer, Lightworks, Openshot, etc.) I prefer the Android versions of everything over Ubuntu. And by prefer, i mean VASTLY prefer, and by everything I mean EVERYTHING (media apps, music apps, email apps, travel apps, games, etc.). Will the Ubuntu community be able to provide equal or better versions of those apps? I think that is THE question because I don't see many Android/iOS application vendors porting to Ubuntu because they are already reticent to port to Windows mobile.
    But there is Windows OS on the desktop and Apple going strong and you still are here Dipped in Ubuntu aren’t you.

  10. #20
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    Re: Enough with the mobile stuff...

    And this dose have the potential to become something you will love to use (variety of different devices) doesn't it?

    http://www.iloveubuntu.net/ubuntu-to...oftware-center

    Unity Next + Mir + Core Apps + Developer Tools and Apps Upload procedure... this is the focus now and indeed it can benefit Ubuntu and convergence strategy can indeed end up as being the best choice one could make in given circumstances.

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