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Thread: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

  1. #21
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    Agreed. My post did not intend to sound like people should use Java instead. By all means people should use the right tool for the job.

    However, I think people shouldn't say things like "Java is not used on Linux very much" like its a fact, if they are not aware.

  2. #22
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    Yeah, as far as python goes, I dont like the fact that it doesnt have traditional data types, or isnt strongly typed. Its not that big of a deal, but its a big enough deal to make me use Java for quick applications.

    Java's biggest problem for me is that is tries so hard to avoid pointers. There comes a time when you realize pointers are just flat out necessary.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    True enough, but that doesn't explain the java hate well. Personally I think java is hated on because of what it was in the earlier days, mixed with a dash of being stuck on 1.6 for years. Things are looking better nowadays with java getting lambdas with closures, project jigsaw, the alternative jvm languages and more.

  4. #24
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leuchten View Post
    Sounding a bit like a broken record here, but have you tried the new javafx? It's pretty much intended to replace swing, doesn't focus on Native look&feel anymore, and is much easier to write UIs in than swing ever was.
    I think this attitude is actually part of the problem: Users usually actually want a program to support native look & feel as much as possible. Of course thatás m,ore work for a programmer if one wants to be cross-plattform
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  5. #25
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    The problem with what exactly? Java focused on native L&F for years and years and years. JavaFX2 apparently supports native L&F for windows 7 and mac osx, but it also has a default look and feel that doesn't look like absolute trash.

    Likewise, gtk is crossplatform but doesn't appear to even attempt native look and feel.

    I think the problem with swing in the past is that it spent too much time trying to camouflage itself as a native app and not enough time making sure it actually looked good on all platforms.
    Last edited by Leuchten; May 24th, 2013 at 09:47 PM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    java programs are also annoying because more often than not they require specific version of java than needs to be installed separately, some specific combination of parameters to run (there are tons of threads asking what to do to give minecraft more memory) not to mention you hear all the time about yet another critical security flaw in java.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    First off, unless something amazing has happened, the security flaws are all in java applets, which is not a huge problem for linux users since you have to manually install the iced-tea plugin alongside the jvm.

    Second off, what applications require a specific version of the jvm? The closest thing I've ever seen is intellij asking for the oracle jvm to be installed instead of openjdk, and that isn't anywhere near necessary.

    Minecraft should have a larger max heap size if it's users are getting out of memory errors, but my girlfriend has never mentioned OOM error crashes.

  8. #28

    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    Ok, I'll be honest. I don't know why other people don't use Java. But as for why I don't use Java? I think it's a horrible, brain-damaged concentration camp of an excuse for a language and the only possible use for it is mitigating the damage that incompetent programmers can do to an established code base. (A use, I will concede, at which it is particularly good.) In particular, the way Java encourages you to solve every single problem by making a new object is incredibly stupid and flies in the face of good design.

    The fact of the matter is, though, that I'm a lone amateur when it comes to software, and I can make these criticisms from my armchair. I don't have to train an army of recent CS graduates and interns, most of whom know everything there is to know about big-O notation and next to nothing about architecture or test engineering, into a team of developers that is somehow an asset that helps my company make money. I don't risk losing my job if HR sends me a bunch of unqualified candidates and my boss blames the failure of the project on the fact that I picked "that new language" instead of the "safe" option. I have the luxury of picking the one language I like best with full knowledge that it can only improve my chances of successfully completing my project. And I have the nerve to criticize languages I don't like for implementing features I don't need! Sometimes I shock myself.

    (This post is not intended to reflect negatively on any person.)

  9. #29
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    What do you mean by "applications" ?
    First, it doesn't make a lot of sense to write applications in Java, because of Java's long loading time.
    The other reason why Java programs aren't good is, Java starts using your entire RAM until there is no more free RAM, and only then will it garbage collect.
    Basically, it's what i would call a "giant memory leak", except that it isn't a leak, it's by design.
    Using all the available RAM might be very good for that one Java application, but it can crash or render unusable any other application that runs at the same time.
    And on a computer with low specs, the performance of even running only that one single program will be miserable, to say the least.

    Another reason is the "write once, run anywhere" motto.
    That certainly sounds very nice, but in reality it's more like "write once, debug everywhere".
    Inappropriate use of codepages (especially in Java applets on the web).
    Who doesn't like buttons where you can't read the text ?
    I've never seen a Java program that run flawlessly without some tweaking by the user. taskbar.

    Take Linux as example.
    When you ran the apt-get installer (when there were still java packages), you still couldn't run Java programs, because the JAVA_HOME environment variable wasn't set.
    Very funny, so the user has to figure out where the hell the JAVA_HOME is, and how the hell to get that into the environment settings.
    Certainly not an action that the average garden-variety user perhaps with even questionable english as a foreign language skills is capable of.

    Today, you have to figure out how to install java yourself, or you have to figure out how you can add the partner repository to your apt-get list.

    On Windows, you have to install Oracle java, and if it isn't installed, the java program won't run out of the box.
    Back in the past, downloading the appropriate Java version for your computer was a pain in the ass.
    Now it has gotten a bit better, but it's bundled with an annying ask browserbar.
    Then, always security updates which don't install themselfs automatically if the user doesn't have administrator rights.


    Then, the GUI of java programs is completely antiquated.
    Who wants a program with gray-and-white menu bars with no gradient, and odd looking symbols ?
    You can't present that, it looks too bad, you can't sell it (because how it looks is the only thing people judge your program before they buy it).


    Then there is the version nightmare, and libraries prerequisites, which are sometimes simply missing.

    That said, Java is good for dedicated server programs.
    The variety where your java program is the only one running on the server, a server with high specs.
    Such as a cassandra database server, or a web application running on tomcat.
    And that's where it is very successful.
    But on the desktop, java has been dead for ages.
    The only reason why java desktop applications still exist, is, that it is taught at universities, and sometimes, there are some more complex special purpose tools that are not available in unmanaged code (C/C++).
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  10. #30
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    Re: Why aren't more Linux applications written in Java?

    Quote Originally Posted by WitchCraft View Post
    When you ran the apt-get installer (when there were still java packages), you still couldn't run Java programs, because the JAVA_HOME environment variable wasn't set.
    Very funny, so the user has to figure out where the hell the JAVA_HOME is, and how the hell to get that into the environment settings.
    Certainly not an action that the average garden-variety user perhaps with even questionable english as a foreign language skills is capable of.

    This has nothing to do with Java.

    There are plenty of package managers thats set JAVA_HOME for you after installing Java. Crunchbang Linux is one such as example... oh yeah and that's using apt-get.

    If you have issues setting a path variable, that means you need a better understanding of it. Environment variables are a different matter altogether, not one you can use as an argument against Java.
    Last edited by KdotJ; May 24th, 2013 at 11:36 PM.
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