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Thread: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

  1. #31
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Admittedly, I've only tried GNOME3 in Kali Linux. I don't really see what the big fuss is. It's not good, but it's not terrible. I was able to do a few basic things. Still, it's way behind GNOME2. SO I switched to Xfce and it was goodfor a while, but I've seen it change from panels to docks*. Not really a dock fan myself, but whatever. So I went with LXDE and I've never been happier.

    Sure, open source devs don't have to please anyone but themselves. However, why would a dev release their software for others to use if they don't want any kind of feedback or help? They could just as easily keep it for themselves to use and never hear another complaint again. Of course, it would then fall solely on the dev to figure out how well it fits in a particular DE and the dev will most likely never exhaust all of the case uses in which issues or workflow breakage could occur.

    All this said, it would be helpfull if users were more adept at critiquing in a more positive manner instead of just complaining. I'm not sure what the exact words of the complaint was, something about transparent backgrounds, but I bet the user never addressed why this feature was needed.

    *I am aware that both panels and docks can be used, even simultaneously, in Xfce.
    Last edited by zer010; May 16th, 2013 at 03:30 AM.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Quote Originally Posted by zer010 View Post
    Admittedly, I've only tried GNOME3 in Kali Linux. I don't really see what the big fuss is. It's not good, but it's not terrible. I was able to do a few basic things. Still, it's way behind GNOME2. SO I switched to Xfce and it was goodfor a while, but I've seen it change from panels to docks*. Not really a dock fan myself, but whatever. So I went with LXDE and I've never been happier.

    Sure, open source devs don't have to please anyone but themselves. However, why would a dev release their software for others to use if they don't want any kind of feedback or help? They could just as easily keep it for themselves to use and never hear another complaint again. Of course, it would then fall solely on the dev to figure out how well it fits in a particular DE and the dev will most likely never exhaust all of the case uses in which issues or workflow breakage could occur.

    All this said, it would be helpfull if users were more adept at critiquing in a more positive manner instead of just complaining. I'm not sure what the exact words of the complaint was, something about transparent backgrounds, but I bet the user never addressed why this feature was needed.

    *I am aware that both panels and docks can be used, even simultaneously, in Xfce.
    XFCE uses panels, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2140890#4
    it is just a little right clicking and customizing them
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  3. #33
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Quote Originally Posted by zer010 View Post
    SO I switched to Xfce and it was goodfor a while, but I've seen it change from panels to docks*.

    *I am aware that both panels and docks can be used, even simultaneously, in Xfce.
    How has XFCE changed from panels to docks? XFCE does not have any docks! If there is a dock in the distro you are using then it came from another project and has nothing to do with XFCE. Your reasoning makes zero sense.

  4. #34
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Unlike most people, I recently switched to Gnome and like it a lot. Bottom line is live and let live.

    Although some of these things I've seen about how they deal with requests like this one bother me. But, I can always switch to something else if they really do mess it up.

  5. #35
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Quote Originally Posted by mips View Post
    How has XFCE changed from panels to docks? XFCE does not have any docks! If there is a dock in the distro you are using then it came from another project and has nothing to do with XFCE. Your reasoning makes zero sense.
    They have a panel at the bottom styled to look like a dock by default, which I'd assume he's referring to. There's nothing docklike in the behavior, of course (which is the same as saying that it's simply not a dock and is certainly a panel.)
    ~ I know I shouldn't use tildes for decoration, but they always make me feel at home. ~

  6. #36
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    I agree with buzzingrobot (#24) this is not an ethics issue.
    I think the responses from the GNOME team were arrogant, shortsighted and probably outright dumb but not unethical.

    If Olav Vitter doesn't like discussions about what GNOME should and shouldn't do in bugzilla, maybe he should make other avenues available .....
    Lutz

  7. #37
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Hey there everyone! I am the writer of that rant that was linked to in the OP.

    I did some follow up research and it seems that there is more to this story than what appears. I mead a second post in my thread explaining, but basically these features were removed because they apparently were relying on legacy dependencies and this was the only application in the Gnome suite that was still using them. Now that being said, I don't agree with how they handled the situation because they never made any indications in release notes or even in the git commits (!) this change occurred. Then they had a fit over it when someone pointed out the missing feature-set. Essentially, it seems like they caused a big scene over what was a temporary change since more than likely these features were probably slated to be reimplemented.

    This all should have been explained to the user and the community. Instead, what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.

  8. #38
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Thanks for the update.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faolan84 View Post
    ... what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.
    And for what purpose would acting like this serve? I don't get it.
    One Psychiatrist's Definition of Insanity:"Knowing what one should do and doing differently"

  9. #39
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Quote Originally Posted by Faolan84 View Post

    I did some follow up research and it seems that there is more to this story than what appears. I mead a second post in my thread explaining, but basically these features were removed because they apparently were relying on legacy dependencies...

    This all should have been explained to the user and the community. Instead, what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.
    The Gnome project hasn't been very good in the communications and outreach department. I suspect it is because the project believes that role belongs to the distributions that package -- and occasionally change -- Gnome. I.e., Gnome talks to the distributions, the distributions talk to their users. I suppose making a forum available to Gnome users, as KDE does, might have some use. But developers and designers seldom frequent user forums of any sort, precisely to avoid being dragged into endless explanations of why they did what they did. (There is seldom any realistic reason to expect developers will undo what they've done. They've already moved on.)The good forums become places where users help each other; the bad forums devolve into platforms for whining and ranting.

    FOSS, in reality, has two communities: User communities and developer communities. Each focuses on its own interests and members of each spend most of their time talking to each other. As much as many people argue that the Gnome project has been guilty of ignoring user wishes and feedback, very little apparatus exists to channel that feedback from users to developers in any coherent and accurate way.

    Once upon a time, I spent several years working with software developers and their prospective users. Here's what I learned: Most developers would rather write code than spend time with users trying to figure out how those users might actually use their software; if you ask users what they want their software to do, they will almost always complain about perceived or real shortcomings in current software, but they will seldom offer coherent suggestions for entirely new designs. Often, the best course may be to scrap the current software and do something new, but because the current software is the framework for the conversation, it's very difficult to make that happen.

    FOSS projects like Gnome are mostly free of those constraints because the livelihoods of their coders are seldom dependent on keeping users (more accuraterly, the users employer) happy.

  10. #40
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    Re: Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

    Quote Originally Posted by Faolan84 View Post
    Hey there everyone! I am the writer of that rant that was linked to in the OP.
    This all should have been explained to the user and the community. Instead, what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.
    Apparently, the maintainer was just tired after closing multiple instances of the same request. He should probably have marked it as duplicate, but hey, people are fallible.

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