View Poll Results: Do you think Community should have been removed?

Voters
86. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    2 2.33%
  • No

    84 97.67%
Page 8 of 15 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 143

Thread: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Left Coast of the USA
    Beans
    Hidden!
    Distro
    Kubuntu

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasa1 View Post
    I must clarify that, in my opinion, the community has no right, divine or otherwise, to get an explanation. Whether it gets one or not depends on the largesse of the "communicators".
    Neither does Canonical have any right to expect that the consumers of it's product will not take such a thoughtless affront as a reason to take their custom elsewhere.

    And, again: It is about respecting the customer rather than expecting the customer to be happy with what he gets even if it was not what he wanted. For what the community gives back to Canonical in terms of testing, desktop customer service and product evangelism, some modicum of respect is right and appropriate. What, after all, is the meaning of "ubuntu"?

    In 1909, Henry Ford said "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it's black." Canonical seems to feel that way right now. Ubuntu, like the Model T, is a good product. Like the Model T, the price is right. But if Ford had offered the T for free and
    his former employee, Robert Hupp, had done the same, what would have been the outcome of the neck and neck race between Ford, Chevrolet and Hupp up until the eve of the Depression? What if Louis Chevrolet had offered his cars at a better price than Ford and Hupp actually had? Would GM have been able to buy Chevrolet? In the end, since all three charged for their products, a price/value comparison sealed their fates. Hupp shrivelled and died. Chevy was bought by GM. And Ford prospered with a monstrously racist, ill-tempered captain at its helm. Ford did not make his cars inexpensive so that people could buy them as he claimed, he made them inexpensive so people would buy them.

    What would have been Ford Motor Company's fate if they had taken down all the customer service signs, carted them down to the basement and left a tiny note tucked under the door saying "Look downstairs." It's a good thing General Motors didn't. They wouldn't now be the single largest automobile manufacturer in the world -- because they have incredible customer loyalty.

    This is a world in which free Linux distributions abound. There are three or four that take the lion's share of the very small market. Being free of charge, they can't compete on a price/value footing. They are bound to the loyalty of their communities for their continued well-being. All of them. Nobody but Canonical did something so foolish as taking "Community" from the top of their web page, got bull-headed about it, told their community that they weren't going to change it, then said they would talk about it at the UDS and then came out and said that they really had planned to put it back all along. Honest!

    Ubuntu is not the only game in town -- nor even necessarily the best one -- and some people, particularly those in the Linux community, don't like black. Even if it's free. It wouldn't be hard for me to disconnect my monitors from my Ubuntu machine, plug them into my Fedora machine and NX from Fedora as my primary OS to Ubuntu as a second string.

    What has kept me from doing that to this point is this community. It deserves more respect than Canonical has given it. In some respects, I don't give half a care about Ubuntu or Canonical. Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE... one's as good as the other. I do, however, care about the community that has grown up around an OS with a name that evokes the image of community.

    It seems to me that perhaps Canonical should consider a different name and branding. Perhaps it is no longer a circle of friends.

    For me, I'm out of the argument. I've avoided been terribly emotional about it and have been, if gruff, rational. I'll have nothing further to say about it. I'll go back to helping people on the forum and shrugging when Canonical shoots itself in the foot. If I had not taken part in this discussion, as a Moderator I would have closed it. Probably the best thing that could be done right now.
    Last edited by QIII; May 15th, 2013 at 08:38 AM.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Beans
    6,923

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by QIII View Post
    I do, however, care about the community that has grown up around an OS with a name that evokes the image of community.
    Well said, and I agree completely with this.....
    You think that's air you're breathing now?

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Beans
    1,321
    Distro
    Ubuntu Development Release

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    Ubuntu can't succeed without community involvement, that's why it's a good long term investment.

    What happens when Canonical-the-business does something the Ubuntu community does not support? What happens when Canonical decisions about resource allocation and personnel impact that community in a negative way?

    What happens down the road, for example, if Canonical finds itself making money on phones and tablets, but losing money on the desktop, and decides to abandon Ubuntu for that platform? That would be a sensible business decision. But, it would surely not be in the interests of the Ubuntu community.

    Canonical and the Ubuntu community are two different and distinct communities. They share interests and objectives, but that overlap is not -- cannot be -- perfect. In essence, the community's focus is on the vitality of Ubuntu software as an end in itself, while Canonical's interest is -- must be -- on Ubuntu as a means to an end. Points of conflict will arise.

    The more I think about it, the more I think Red Hat's decision some years ago to, in effect, spin off Fedora as its community effort was a better idea. Fedora and RHEL are distinct and different products. The former is developed and shaped by the Fedora community, the latter by Red Hat's business requirements. The potential for conflict still exists, but it is greatly reduced.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Beans
    1,321
    Distro
    Ubuntu Development Release

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by QIII View Post
    Neither does Canonical have any right to expect that the consumers of it's product will not take such a thoughtless affront as a reason to take their custom elsewhere.

    There is no custom. Canonical is not selling Ubuntu to the community, or anyone else. Every precedent argues that trying to sell Ubuntu to the Ubuntu community would be a losing proposition.

    Arguably, Canonical may be leveraging the community for testing, PR, visibility, etc., but its primary need is to make a profit by selling something to customers. By and large, members of the Ubuntu community are not Canonical customers. You can't bank community good will. Meanwhile, user testing, PR, etc., could, in theory, be done in-house and/or by contracting with other businesses.

    Successful software businesses do not need to depend on volunteer *user* communities to make money. Apple, for example, has succeeded in large part by fostering a large and vibrant community of independent *developers* who make their livings by creating and selling applications that run on its platforms. Apple reaps the benefits when people buy Apple products to run those applications.

    The problem for anyone trying to make money in FOSS is that the users typically never become customers. I.e., independent FOSS developers can't make a living writing and selling code.

    Canonical, then, cannot emulate Apple's fostering of independent *commercial* software vendors because the FOSS environment is toxic to them.

    It's the same for anyone else.

    That's why Red Hat and Suse got out of the retail Linux game years ago, why Canonical follows their lead in selling server support, and why it makes clumsy efforts to monetize Ubuntu.
    Last edited by buzzingrobot; May 15th, 2013 at 12:46 PM.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Beans
    1,321
    Distro
    Ubuntu Development Release

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by QIII View Post
    Neither does Canonical have any right to expect that the consumers of it's product will not take such a thoughtless affront as a reason to take their custom elsewhere.
    Again, unless you pay for it, you are not a consumer.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Beans
    1,246
    Distro
    Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    consumer (n.) early 15c., "one who squanders or wastes," agent noun from consume. In economic sense, "one who uses up goods or articles" (opposite of producer) from 1745.Consumer goods is attested from 1890. In U.S., consumer price index calculated since 1919, tracking "changes in the prices paid by urban consumers for a representative basket of goods and services" [Bureau of Labor Statistics]; abbreviation CPI is attested by 1971.

    So, really just because something is 'free' does not preclude your being a consumer of it.
    clear && echo paste url and press enter; read paste; (youtube-dl $paste) | zenity --progress --title="" --text "Downloading, please wait" --auto-close --pulsate && ans=$(zenity --file-selection); gnome-terminal -x mplayer "$ans"

  7. #77
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Beans
    1,933
    Distro
    Hardy Heron (Ubuntu Development)

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlynmac View Post
    Not saying Canonical needs to "run every little decision they make as a company" by the community. However, this seems like a no brainer.
    Right. They definitely don't need to run every decision by the community; I wouldn't want them to. But decisions that are about the community probably should be run by us.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    There's an inevitable tension between a business needing to make a profit and a self-described and self-selected community that seems to want to have a controlling influence on the decisions of the business. The tension arises because, in the end, the objectives of the business cannot be in synch with the wishes of the community.
    First off, Mark made Ubuntu a community project when he first started it. We're not "self-described and self-selected". But this tension you're talking about is exactly why they should have kept the business side of it on the Canonical web site, and the community side on the Ubuntu web site. Canonical is business, Ubuntu is community.

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    People love to sit there and lecture about how community this and that until there's actual work to be done, then all of a sudden they don't want to be involved anymore.
    So I guess the thousands of posts and man hours that people volunteer here to give Ubuntu users free support don't count as work. We're just a bunch of people sitting around whining on a forum, and that's all this is about. I suggest you take a look around these forums other than just the threads like this where people are disgruntled with your boss.
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Beans
    Hidden!
    Distro
    Kubuntu 14.04 Trusty Tahr

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    well written QIII!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlynmac View Post
    Begs he question, why did they and make statements like this? "Ubuntu is free. Always has been and always will be. From the operating system to security updates, storage to software." Which still resides on the Ubuntu.com site. From a charitable standpoint it's logical, but from a profitability perspective it appears disingenuous - at best.
    it is even worse. clicking on why is it free get's you to community. as in "we have these suckers doing all the hard work for free so we can keep it free." a shame really...

    so it started by removing forums as place to get support from installer, then this, and then also brainstorming (since ideas usually din't get into Ubuntu anyway).

    and after updates failes me two times on LTS Debian (or something else) seems more and more attractive.
    Easy to understand Ubuntu manual with lots of pics: http://ubuntu-manual.org/
    Do i need antivirus/firewall in linux?
    User friendly disk backup: Redobackup

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Beans
    1,321
    Distro
    Ubuntu Development Release

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by |{urse View Post
    consumer (n.) early 15c., "one who squanders or wastes," agent noun from consume. In economic sense, "one who uses up goods or articles" (opposite of producer) from 1745.Consumer goods is attested from 1890. In U.S., consumer price index calculated since 1919, tracking "changes in the prices paid by urban consumers for a representative basket of goods and services" [Bureau of Labor Statistics]; abbreviation CPI is attested by 1971.

    So, really just because something is 'free' does not preclude your being a consumer of it.

    Words and cherry-picked definitions don't change reality. Buying something is one activity, using it is another. People who *use* Ubuntu don't -- can't -- buy it. Whatever words someone chooses to attach to that fact, the fact does not change.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Beans
    1,246
    Distro
    Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin

    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    That's not a cherrypicked definition, it's the etymology of the word. And you started the semantical argument about users of the free product not being consumers. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong.
    clear && echo paste url and press enter; read paste; (youtube-dl $paste) | zenity --progress --title="" --text "Downloading, please wait" --auto-close --pulsate && ans=$(zenity --file-selection); gnome-terminal -x mplayer "$ans"

Page 8 of 15 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •