View Poll Results: Do you think Community should have been removed?

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  • Yes

    2 2.33%
  • No

    84 97.67%
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Thread: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

  1. #61
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    I suspect the reason is that they didn't really have it planned all along, and they're really just doing damage control right now....
    You suspect?
    Quoted from comment #9 on the bug-report page :
    The removal of 'Community' from the top nav of the site was a decision by the business to make 'the primary ubuntu.com site navigation' more product focused. The decsion to move it to the footer fits in line with future plans for the site, and in testing the footer has always tested well.
    That ^^ leaves no doubt to me.

    @ buzzingrobot,
    We ARE the 'best part' of their product and their objective. We are the free and most active support system that they can never afford on their own. Nobody is trying to control anything here. We just want them to recognize what we already are. And that is for their own good. We are not paid to be with them. Unless I am an utter stupid, it seems foolish to me if they or anybody thinks that our objectives are crossing ways.


    EDIT: Sorry if I sounded harsh, but it is difficult to stay polite when your self-respect is hurt by your own people.
    Regarding your comment about 'forking' - if you are a capable member of your family, do you stay ready to split out and make your own living on each little quarrel that may arise? No, you try to calm things down, while eliminating the misunderstanding whatever it is. You CAN split out, sure that is always an option, but never the best one.
    Last edited by varunendra; May 14th, 2013 at 10:34 PM.
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  2. #62
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by varunendra View Post
    Y
    @ buzzingrobot,
    We ARE the 'best part' of their product and their objective. We are the free and most active support system that they can never afford on their own. Nobody is trying to control anything here. We just want them to recognize what we already are. And that is for their own good. We are not paid to be with them. Unless I am an utter stupid, it seems foolish to me if they or anybody thinks that our objectives are crossing ways.


    EDIT: Sorry if I sounded harsh, but it is difficult to stay polite when your self-respect is hurt by your own people.
    Regarding your comment about 'forking' - if you are a capable member of your family, do you stay ready to split out and make your own living on each little quarrel that may arise? No, you try to calm things down, while eliminating the misunderstanding whatever it is. You CAN split out, sure that is always an option, but never the best one.
    One example: Lots of people were angry when Unity was introduced. Many still are, painting that decision as contrary to community wishes. (I don't understand how businesses like Canonical are supposed to accurately determine what the "community" wants, much less abide by those wishes.)

    That's just one example of the tension that *must*, sooner or later, come to the fore in the relationship of a FOSS-for-profit business and the FOSS community that developed around it.

    If Canonical is going to be something other than a perpetual Shuttleworth charity, it needs to turn a profit. Doing that requires decisions made in whatever Canonical sees as its best interest, even if those decisions alienate the Ubuntu community. That's not because "bad people" are involved on either side. It's just inevitable.

    Frankly, I am not so sure Canonical made the best decision when, years ago, it chose to encourage and foster an Ubuntu community, because I don't see how that all works in the long term.

    Re: forking -- If someone's primary interest in Ubuntu is as software, then forking is a viable option. If someone's primary interest in Ubuntu is the community, that's different.

    Re: "We ARE the 'best part' of their product and their objective." -- With respect, the best part of Ubuntu can't be the community. I can't run "community" on my hardware. And, I assume Canonical's objective is profit.
    Last edited by buzzingrobot; May 14th, 2013 at 11:09 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Frankly, I am not so sure Canonical made the best decision when, years ago, it chose to encourage and foster an Ubuntu community, because I don't see how that all works in the long term.
    Ubuntu can't succeed without community involvement, that's why it's a good long term investment.

    I asked again during this session (as I've asked at every UDS session for the past two years about ubuntu.com/community) for volunteers to help with the site and we still have barely any people working on it. People love to sit there and lecture about how community this and that until there's actual work to be done, then all of a sudden they don't want to be involved anymore.

  4. #64
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    There is a sea change running through everything.
    I'm leaning towards the belief that Canonical don't want the cleaners visible when the new visitors turn up.

    If it wasn't for the community I would probably have looked elsewhere for an OS long ago (and several times since).

    This is where you come to get the thing working satisfactorally or fixed when you broke it. This is where you get several options on how to do something and this is particularly helpful to new users who have little experience.

    Granted there will always be a degree of dirty laundry and litter lying around..there's a lot of people.

  5. #65
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    With respect, the best part of Ubuntu can't be the community.
    Replace "community" with "Free, 24-hour customer support, technical advice and troubleshooting", then wicker a big goose egg into Canonical's expense report for desktop customer support and product evangelism. In the long run, how much does that affect the bottom line?

    Define the word "ubuntu" without any reference to any concept of community.

    If they made a mistake by nurturing a community, they made a mistake by calling it Ubuntu. If they want to get out of the "community" business, they need to change the name, since community is part and parcel of the word. They need to build and staff a desktop call center and help line then charge for it, as they do for corporate help contracts. I'll find some other way to goof off in my spare time.

    Oh. And Mark needs to welch on a promise.

    Or maybe he's already headed that way.

  6. #66
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    I have no problem if Canonical wants to change their website from brown to orange to purple. But changing the Ubuntu.com website without community input runs counter to everything that Ubuntu was founded on in the first place. These forums have undergone a couple of makeovers. Each time there was an announcement, mockups, solicitation for ideas, then a test link for the brave, then a rollout schedule, then the changeover. Yes there was some grumbling. Some things broke (regressions). Other things went well with better performance. Some grumbled over fonts, themes, space between posts, locations of quick links, lack of dark mode. But after a while, the grumbling dies down and we get back to business.

    The ubuntu.com change was noticed right away by community members and generally caught us by surprise. I didn't see any announcements or solicitations for design input.

    I think the poll shows that the ubuntu community is particularly concerned when a community-driven linux distribution's website has all references to community removed from the front page. It's as simple as that.

    Now maybe there are good reasons for removing all references to community on the ubuntu.com website.

    But I can't think of any.

    A little light reading: http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...ect#post330791
    Last edited by tgalati4; May 15th, 2013 at 04:11 AM.
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  7. #67
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    That's the slideshow maintainer's decision, he's not a Canonical employee.
    Well, I watched the video and was struck by a comment made by the "Community Manager" at ~ 14:50. An isolated event shouldn't lead to distrust.

    Unfortunately, there have been a succession of events. The quote above is an illustration of how a section of the community can feel slighted without a satisfactory explanation. I put up that particular quote because it comes across as being a bit cryptic.

    I must clarify that, in my opinion, the community has no right, divine or otherwise, to get an explanation. Whether it gets one or not depends on the largesse of the "communicators".
    de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum -- Wiktionary

  8. #68
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasa1 View Post
    I must clarify that, in my opinion, the community has no right, divine or otherwise, to get an explanation. Whether it gets one or not depends on the largesse of the "communicators".
    It's not about rights, though, is it? It's about relationship. In any relationship, when it gets to the point of asserting your rights, you've already lost. Sure, Canonical can do what it wants with its properties and trademarks, but nobody in the community is obligated to take it and like it. They are free people who can walk (and in many cases already have).

    I'm not so sure a lot of people in these forums understand what the community is and what part it plays in Ubuntu development. I see a lot of comments here and there that suggest that people think Canonical pulls Ubuntu out of its ear and "the community" is just a bunch of people who hang out on a forum and complain about it.

    There are actually a large group of non-Canonical-employees who contribute directly to Ubuntu itself -- developing, packaging, testing, patching, designing, documenting, etc. What Ubuntu would be without them is anyone's guess, but I feel safe in saying it'd be a significant --perhaps fatal -- loss. Canonical was not the first business to build a friendly Linux based on Debian, but AFAIK they were the first to make community a significant part of the plan. I think it's paid off.

  9. #69
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    It's not about rights, though, is it? It's about relationship. In any relationship, when it gets to the point of asserting your rights, you've already lost. Sure, Canonical can do what it wants with its properties and trademarks, but nobody in the community is obligated to take it and like it. They are free people who can walk (and in many cases already have).
    Choose whatever word one feels appropriate: right, relationship, sense of entitlement. The issue to me is that it seems that there is an expectation that actions by Canonical "involving" the evolution of Ubuntu and the community's role in that evolution would be discussed with the community beforehand rather than presented as a fait accompli. Now, how far the community is justified in having such expectations is the point. No doubt, it's obvious that individuals in the community are not bonded labor and can walk when they choose. It's up to Canonical to assess the potential consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    I'm not so sure a lot of people in these forums understand what the community is and what part it plays in Ubuntu development. I see a lot of comments here and there that suggest that people think Canonical pulls Ubuntu out of its ear and "the community" is just a bunch of people who hang out on a forum and complain about it.
    This is where effective communication could help. Till now, there isn't a satisfactory explanation about the slideshow. The last sentence in the quote above may explain why Ubuntu Forums is, to my mind, being gradually "deprecated".
    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    There are actually a large group of non-Canonical-employees who contribute directly to Ubuntu itself -- developing, packaging, testing, patching, designing, documenting, etc. What Ubuntu would be without them is anyone's guess, but I feel safe in saying it'd be a significant --perhaps fatal -- loss.
    That's for Canonical to assess.
    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    Canonical was not the first business to build a friendly Linux based on Debian, but AFAIK they were the first to make community a significant part of the plan. I think it's paid off.
    No doubt and no one is arguing about that.
    de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum -- Wiktionary

  10. #70
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    buzzingrobot
    If Canonical is going to be something other than a perpetual Shuttleworth charity, it needs to turn a profit. Doing that requires decisions made in whatever Canonical sees as its best interest, even if those decisions alienate the Ubuntu community. That's not because "bad people" are involved on either side. It's just inevitable.

    Frankly, I am not so sure Canonical made the best decision when, years ago, it chose to encourage and foster an Ubuntu community, because I don't see how that all works in the long term.
    Begs he question, why did they and make statements like this? "Ubuntu is free. Always has been and always will be. From the operating system to security updates, storage to software." Which still resides on the Ubuntu.com site. From a charitable standpoint it's logical, but from a profitability perspective it appears disingenuous - at best.

    Many community members may share QIII's opinion (#65) or worse, which could adversely effect the future of Ubuntu as a profitable OS. Alienating the community (after relying on it for years) and violating an oath, could easily compromise the entire Ubuntu project. Not a good start, for what some may believe is inevitable.
    "All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward."
    Ellen Glasgow

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