View Poll Results: Do you think Community should have been removed?

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Thread: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

  1. #91
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    So I guess the thousands of posts and man hours that people volunteer here to give Ubuntu users free support don't count as work. We're just a bunch of people sitting around whining on a forum, and that's all this is about. I suggest you take a look around these forums other than just the threads like this where people are disgruntled with your boss.
    Of course it "counts", I've done thousands of hours of support myself. The point is that a community portal should be developed with input and support from the community, and that's not happening.
    The community is providing support here. Sometimes the best way to provide support is to point out failings and help to get them fixed before it gets worse.

    When people believe in something with the force that many of us do: otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing it; there are bound to be differences in both opinion and emphasis. I don't want to this to degenerate into Canonical vs Community; we have a lot to gain from each other.

    Without the support of Canonical the community would not have Ubuntu. Without the support of the community: developers, bug trackers, documentation writers, translators, those on this forum and elsewhere. Canonical would still have Ubuntu but it wouldn't be as good as it is today.

    Quote Originally Posted by arsenic23 View Post
    They could (eventually) be deprived of the status they enjoy as one of the biggest linux communities. In all honesty the only reason I use Ubuntu over, say, Debian is all the ppas we have here, and the only reason we have those is because of the huge user base. The community is a big part of that; the community is paramount.
    I hope not - I hope we remain the largest community. I use Ubuntu because whenever I have needed support I have always been able to find it and most of that support has come from people who like me care about Ubuntu but who are not Canonical employees.

    That's not to say that I have not received support from Canonical employees too. I have but this does not diminish the role of the community.

    I am proud to be a member and happy to help where I have time and I can.

  2. #92
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    Question Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    The following is not a "what Canonical did" reference, but a generalized commentary on some misconceptions about the modern business environment and the pitfalls into which a company may, but not necessarily will, fall. What has been done has been done and, in the end, whether it turns out for good or ill is Canonical's fate.

    If a disgruntled community took its business elsewhere en masse, there would certainly be an effect on the bottom line for an organization like Canonical. The notoriety would make it impossible for Canonical to find commercial customers. Their built in product evangelists, who might otherwise have suggested Ubuntu as a business solution to their employers, would not do so.

    One need never purchase nor, having once purchased, ever purchase again the products of any company to be an element in the agency of that company's injury.

    Perception is reality in our modern society. It is still arguable whether the Corvair was particulary unsafe relative to other cars of the day. Yet Ralph Nader, a nobody who had never owned a Corvair, made himself famous and Chevrolet somewhat less profitable by constructing a "perception reality".

    English, by the way, is a uniquely idiomatic language. I don't know how much breath I would waste arguing about the semantics of an idiom or colloquialism rather than the subject unless I had no ammo and needed to reach into my pocket for a herring to use in an attempt to distract the other guy.

    Point being, of course, that the debate then wanders away from the matter at hand.


    Are ya feelin' me? No, of course not. How could you even reach out to touch me over thousands of miles of optical cable and twisted pair?
    Last edited by QIII; May 15th, 2013 at 05:28 PM.

  3. #93
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Words and cherry-picked definitions don't change reality. Buying something is one activity, using it is another. People who *use* Ubuntu don't -- can't -- buy it. Whatever words someone chooses to attach to that fact, the fact does not change.
    There is a big difference between consumers and customers. Customers buy things, and consumers consume things, whether they are free or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by castrojo View Post
    Of course it "counts", I've done thousands of hours of support myself. The point is that a community portal should be developed with input and support from the community, and that's not happening.
    I think the problem is that there is a severe lack of communication. It almost appears like we are not welcome to be a part of anything "official", and I doubt if many people around the forums even knew that you wanted our help in the community portal. The way it has been displayed is "this is what we're doing, so like it or leave it".

    Let me tell you another huge problem. It's pretty obvious that there are a lot of ticked off people in the forum and in the community who feel like Canonical doesn't give a rat's backside about us, whether that's justified or not. The problem is that I have yet to see anyone from Canonical try to smooth it over with the community and make us feel like we're appreciated. Instead, all we get are Canonical representatives lecturing us and pointing out why we're wrong. If you want the community to calm down, then you need to give us a reason to.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    Call it business, call it custom, call it a Big Blue Pony. Give it whatever label you wish. No matter. You cannot buy Ubuntu. That means taking your business or your custom or your Big Blue Pony elsewhere has zero impact on Canonical revenues. You aren't depriving Canonical of anything because no transaction occurred in the first place.
    If enough of us freeloaders get mad enough to find another distro, then Canonical will lose its free support and its place at the top of the mountain, which in turn will cause it to lose it's paying customers. There is a reason to keep the community happy. The reason is that if it doesn't have a community, which is Ubuntu's user base, then all of the Amazons will stop paying them to put a shortcut in their distro. And how many non-Ubuntu users do you think are really going to pay for UbuntuOne?
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

  4. #94
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    If enough of us freeloaders get mad enough to find another distro, then Canonical will lose its free support and its place at the top of the mountain, which in turn will cause it to lose it's paying customers. There is a reason to keep the community happy. The reason is that if it doesn't have a community, which is Ubuntu's user base, then all of the Amazons will stop paying them to put a shortcut in their distro. And how many non-Ubuntu users do you think are really going to pay for UbuntuOne?
    All true, but I wonder how much difference any of it would make to Canonical's financial position. They still haven't turned a profit, all the Amazon fees and UbuntuOne's notwithstanding. Many businesses have tried to monetize Linux, and pretty much everything Canonical is doing has been done before. So far, no one has made it pay. If you're good and if you're careful, there's money to be made selling enterprise support like Red Hat, Suse, et al. Maybe Canonical can make money in that game. But, I am very skeptical Canonical can turn a profit by attaching monetizing gimmicks to the Ubuntu they give away. So far, they've just turned people off without having much to show for it.

    When it comes down to it, I don't think the Ubuntu community can contribute in any meaningful way to Canonical's financial position.

    (Canonical could replace the "free support" -- it's not actually free because they incur costs in administering and responding to their bug report system -- with in-house testing, professional focus group studies, organized user tests, etc., as is done elsewhere in the industry.

  5. #95
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Honestly, a Fedora/Red Hat arrangement would not be an altogether bad thing.

    Red Hat does lend developer support and major financial support to the Fedora Project. The user community is very loyal to Fedora.

    I don't thank that would kill Ubuntu. If anything, it would force Canonical to both respect, sponsor and support Ubuntu as Red Hat does Fedora.

    Canonical could trim its operating costs and the Ubuntu community would wield some power in directing the future not only of Ubuntu, but also Canonical's commercial offering. But that could only come about through Canonical's understanding of the relationship between its success and the respect afforded the community.

    Ubuntu and CanonicOS?
    Last edited by QIII; May 15th, 2013 at 10:31 PM.

  6. #96
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    I think the problem is that there is a severe lack of communication. It almost appears like we are not welcome to be a part of anything "official", and I doubt if many people around the forums even knew that you wanted our help in the community portal. The way it has been displayed is "this is what we're doing, so like it or leave it".
    There is an ubuntu developer summit happening _right now_ and we had a session on the community link yesterday. Do you have any suggestions for how to improve people from the forums participating in UDS? We have blueprints that are published every cycle, each session is streamed live on the internet and archived on YouTube, and there are tons of resources available for people to read about what happens at UDS.

    Let me tell you another huge problem. It's pretty obvious that there are a lot of ticked off people in the forum and in the community who feel like Canonical doesn't give a rat's backside about us, whether that's justified or not. The problem is that I have yet to see anyone from Canonical try to smooth it over with the community and make us feel like we're appreciated. Instead, all we get are Canonical representatives lecturing us and pointing out why we're wrong. If you want the community to calm down, then you need to give us a reason to.
    I don't really understand what you'd like for me to do here. The link was missing from the website, someone filed a bug, it was discussed on the bug and at UDS and it's going to be resolved, what else is there to do? I'm not here to lecture people to calm down; as far as I can see when issues get brought up we deal with them openly.

    There is a reason to keep the community happy. The reason is that if it doesn't have a community, which is Ubuntu's user base, then all of the Amazons will stop paying them to put a shortcut in their distro. And how many non-Ubuntu users do you think are really going to pay for UbuntuOne?
    I don't think it's fair to paint it as "The Community vs. Canonical". There are millions of people who use Ubuntu and to assume that everyone is going to bail over a broken link on the website is kind of a stretch, especially when we've committed to fix it.

  7. #97
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by QIII View Post
    If anything, it would force Canonical to both respect, sponsor and support Ubuntu as Red Hat does Fedora.
    Canonical respects, sponsors, and supports Ubuntu, I don't know what you mean by this.

  8. #98
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    FYI the community subsection revamp session is happening right now!

    http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/me...ebsite-revamp/

  9. #99
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Snubbed community members, might feel rejected and no longer promote the OS. How does isolating a large portion of it's user base, improve the marketability of any product? Especially, those who have invested time beta testing said product and assisting other uses in a support capacity. For they're aware of Ubuntu's weaknesses and if rejected could prove to be Canonical's Achilles' heel.

    Semantics matter little when one considers the bottom line. Regardless, of how Canonical views the community (as freeloaders, consumers or customers), they might find themselves in a position of compromise. Especially, if a significant number of ex-community members decide to actively promote other distros, while "aggressively" renouncing Ubuntu. Keeping in mind, that a marketing campaign would then need to address both competitive OS's and hostile ex-community members. Not a pleasant kick off concept.

    Separation might make sense. Perhaps, Red Hat recognizes the value of community. Which would explain why they continue lending support to the Fedora project.
    "All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward."
    Ellen Glasgow

  10. #100
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    Re: Your thoughts on Ubuntu.com without Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlynmac View Post
    Snubbed community members, might feel rejected and no longer promote the OS. How does isolating a large portion of it's user base, improve the marketability of any product? Especially, those who have invested time beta testing said product and assisting other uses in a support capacity. For they're aware of Ubuntu's weaknesses and if rejected could prove to be Canonical's Achilles' heel.

    Semantics matter little when one considers the bottom line. Regardless, of how Canonical views the community (as freeloaders, consumers or customers), they might find themselves in a position of compromise. Especially, if a significant number of ex-community members decide to actively promote other distros, while "aggressively" renouncing Ubuntu. Keeping in mind, that a marketing campaign would then need to address both competitive OS's and hostile ex-community members. Not a pleasant kick off concept.

    True what you said. I hope it doesn't come to that, it will be very sad. Frankly if one only cares about "products" there are many choices and Ubuntu is probably not even the best, especially a few years ago when its momentum was building. It was not because of a "consumer" attitude that Ubuntu is at where it is today (the consumer attitude is succuncitly expressed in post 112 here, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...127165&page=12) What made Ubuntu special is the community. It is its srongest selling point. It is inspiring (I hope I don't need to belabour the rather crass point that it provides a lot of free lablour in terms of testing and technical support)

    Cannonical is a business and Ubuntu s a commercial project (as oppose to Debian ), that we all know, but it exists in a symbiotic relationship with the community. The commercialization of Linux in the form of Ubuntu brings a lot of good in rasing the profile of Linux as a serious platform of everyday use (not just in servers and super computers) and enriching Linux ecosystem in terms of more developers, better support by the hardware vendors and large software vendors etc, it also has its pitfalls. Maybe in the mist of this new success and glitters the leadership of Canonical somehow loses sight of its root? Maybe once in a while it needs a jolt to be reminded of why it has been successful?

    I hope this will be rectified quickly so that we can all move forward, I really don't like to see this kind of acrimony. The community has been very accomodating, I am thinking of a guy in the testing forum who does a lot tests and bug reporting whenever a new version of Unity comes out even though he confesses that he doesn't like the UI. All for what? He isn't paid a dime by Canonical. People like this is the real strength of Cannonical over competitors like Apple and MS, not glossy products, please don't squander it.

    Edited: Many people mention Redhat, but the analogy doesn't really hold. There is an inversion here, Redhat is the company which does most of the upstream R&D and the Fedora community repackages, tests and patchs the upstream work. In the case of Canonical, almost all the upstream work is maintained and done by Debian, which is an entirely community project, and a truly amazing one too.
    Last edited by monkeybrain2012; May 15th, 2013 at 11:39 PM.

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