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Thread: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

  1. #51
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    Wanted to post this link since it's a pretty good picture of where some of the other major communities out there stand with regard to Mir, and how it may affect other DE's and so forth:

    http://www.markshuttleworth.com/arch...comment-400682

    That's a comment from Aaron Seigo (lead developer for KDE/plasma desktop) on one of Mark's blog posts about Canonical's new directions and how it affects the community. Interesting reading, since this is a perspective from actual developers, not just users, journalist, or blogger cranks.
    Thanks for the link. That's fascinating stuff and goes some way toward answering my question. Especially this:

    "So that means our software won’t run on Mir. Since our software is not shipped with Ubuntu anyways, that’s a non-issue." ~ Aaron Seigo

    As I thought, there will be software that simply won't run on MIR (without some cost in time and effort). Will be interesting to see how this all sugars off. I'm not worried about it from a user's perspective. However, if I had to make a prediction, I expect that Ubuntu's move (if Ubuntu defaults to MIR) will marginalize the rest of the linux ecosystem (if the rest stubbornly refuse to follow suit). Then again, they're all largely irrelevant anyway (sorry Arch, Debian, Fedora, PCLOS, Redhat, etc...) Ubuntu is the only distro (and Canonical is the only company) that has a chance in the larger scheme of things. All the other distros just don't matter (and they're not in it for that reason anyway) so an extra layer of irrelevance shouldn't bother them (until and unless certain video drivers only work with certain display servers). That's when all the little wheels will start squeaking very loudly.
    Linux: You reap what you tweak.

  2. #52
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Jesse Smith nailed the issues I've been wondering about in the latest Distrowatch Weekly (500th issue). He writes:

    "...Wayland was receiving a lukewarm welcome from the community as a whole.

    At least it was until Canonical announced the launch of Mir, a potential competitor to Wayland. A week after the announcement went public, this post was made to the GNOME mailing list stating: "The recent Mir announcement makes it a bit more urgent that we put our weight behind Wayland and help it reach its full potential." The post suggests GNOME should support Wayland before the end of 2013 and it's probably not a coincidence this is the same time-line proposed by Canonical for getting Unity working with Mir. I personally think it is also interesting to note the proposed push to get GNOME working with Wayland comes from Matthias Clasen, a Fedora contributor with an @redhat.com e-mail address. I suspect in the final quarter of 2013 we will see an interesting and problematic fork in the road where GNOME runs on top of Wayland on Fedora, Unity runs on top of Mir on Ubuntu and other distributions not based on either of these projects will be running their desktop environments on top of standard X.

    Why might this be problematic? Well, aside from the likelihood of new bugs being introduced with the arrival of fresh software there is also the question of video drivers. Linux distributions already suffer from poor video driver support and dividing that limited support three ways isn't going to help. While it should be relatively easy to make existing open source drivers work across X, Wayland and Mir, closed source drivers (those needed for 3-D support and gaming) do not yet work with Wayland or Mir. It's already hard enough to get companies like AMD and NVIDIA to support Linux when they are asked to support the X graphic stack, are these companies going to volunteer to support three different display systems in the small desktop Linux market? Might they only support one or two of the display options and, if so, which ones?

    Increasingly we are seeing the Linux community divided into camps, not just the classic RPM vs DEB and GNOME vs KDE camps of the past. The chasms are growing wider, dividing the community into separate groups using different init processes, display systems and access controls. It is my concern as both a developer and a user that we are seeing a division of the Linux community into multiple separate communities. We appear to have the Fedora/Red Hat camp on one side, the Ubuntu/Canonical camp on the other and we have many other distributions stuck in the middle..."
    Linux: You reap what you tweak.

  3. #53
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    The post suggests GNOME should support Wayland before the end of 2013 and it's probably not a coincidence this is the same time-line proposed by Canonical for getting Unity working with Mir.
    Perhaps not, but it's not like the effort around Wayland started the day after Mir was announced, it's been a years long way, and a quite transparent one.

    I suspect in the final quarter of 2013 we will see an interesting and problematic fork in the road where GNOME runs on top of Wayland on Fedora, Unity runs on top of Mir on Ubuntu and other distributions not based on either of these projects will be running their desktop environments on top of standard X.
    Most probably everyone will still be using X, with Ubuntu making a slow transition to Mir and everyone else to Wayland. By the way, my impression is that KDE will be ready for Wayland before Gnome.

    are these companies going to volunteer to support three different display systems in the small desktop Linux market? Might they only support one or two of the display options and, if so, which ones?
    And that's why everyone is unhappy with Canonical announcing first that Ubuntu would be an early supporter of Wayland, then not contributing to it, and then developing in secret an alternative. It hasn't helped either the lot of questionable things that Canonical employees have said about Wayland, KDE, Red Hat, Intel... or almost anyone that has actually contributed with code.

    We appear to have the Fedora/Red Hat camp on one side, the Ubuntu/Canonical camp on the other and we have many other distributions stuck in the middle..."
    I don't see anyone stuck in the middle. Only Ubuntu has announced plans to use Mir.

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    Unhappy Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tartalo View Post
    Perhaps not, but it's not like the effort around Wayland started the day after Mir was announced, it's been a years long way, and a quite transparent one.



    Most probably everyone will still be using X, with Ubuntu making a slow transition to Mir and everyone else to Wayland. By the way, my impression is that KDE will be ready for Wayland before Gnome.



    And that's why everyone is unhappy with Canonical announcing first that Ubuntu would be an early supporter of Wayland, then not contributing to it, and then developing in secret an alternative. It hasn't helped either the lot of questionable things that Canonical employees have said about Wayland, KDE, Red Hat, Intel... or almost anyone that has actually contributed with code.



    I don't see anyone stuck in the middle. Only Ubuntu has announced plans to use Mir.
    you do have some really good points MIR is going to be Ubuntu only Wayland is going to be the New Xserver so now getting AAA Developers to develop for Linux is going to be five times harder Canonical Sunk the Ship before it sailed for a lot of Linux Users gamers etc
    and how many tool kits are we going to have how many bugs will Mir and Wayland have will we have Nvidia and AMD Drivers for Mir and Wayland
    whos going to Develop the OpenSource Drivers For Mir? we have OpenSource Drivers for Wayland
    most Developers are working on Wayland so if Mir is not going to use Wayland Code tool kits etc
    is the little team of developers at Canonical going to write all code a huge team of developers been working on for 2+ years? or is Canonical going to hire more developers to keep? only time will tell

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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    I found the following curious:

    "The recent Mir announcement makes it a bit more urgent that we put our weight behind Wayland and help it reach its full potential."

    What does he mean by this? Why is it more urgent for Gnome to get behind Wayland? Tell me I'm wrong but I read (between the lines) something like spite, resentment and contrarianism? What difference does it make to Gnome's schedule that Ubuntu uses MIR? The way I read between the lines is as follows: Gnome now feels that they are in direct competition with Canonical. They want to be the defacto Linux desktop (and probably blame Unity for their current problems). The writer of the post probably thinks that if Gnome can establish Wayland before Canonical establishes MIR, then third party video driver support (for example) will flock to Wayland rather than MIR. Gnome's boat will be lifted, Canonical's will sink.

    For those who think competition in the Linux ecosystem is a good thing, I think we've got it -- a major competitive split between two big names. My feeling though is that Canonical will win. They've got the money and they're already years ahead of Gnome when it comes to expanding beyond the desktop. If Canonical says, once and for all, that it's going with MIR, and if Ubuntu is where the eyes are, Red Hat and Gnome can either cling to an irrelevant Wayland or swallow their pride. That's kinda' the way I read the tea leaves.
    Linux: You reap what you tweak.

  6. #56
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Absolutely agree with BrokenKingpin. Build it, if it's good, they will come. X has been around and been voted for replacement a while now. So far, I'm still a happy *nix user.
    HP Pavilion dv6, Core i3-3110M, 6GB RAM, nVIDIA Geforce GT 650M, 640GB HDD: Win7 / Xubuntu 13.10 64bit

  7. #57
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by zer010 View Post
    So far, I'm still a happy *nix user.
    Me too. : ) I'm thinking this can only be good from our perspective. Still, it will be interesting to see how it all sugars off.
    Linux: You reap what you tweak.

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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    I found the following curious:

    "The recent Mir announcement makes it a bit more urgent that we put our weight behind Wayland and help it reach its full potential."

    What does he mean by this? Why is it more urgent for Gnome to get behind Wayland? Tell me I'm wrong but I read (between the lines) something like spite, resentment and contrarianism? What difference does it make to Gnome's schedule that Ubuntu uses MIR? The way I read between the lines is as follows: Gnome now feels that they are in direct competition with Canonical. They want to be the defacto Linux desktop (and probably blame Unity for their current problems). The writer of the post probably thinks that if Gnome can establish Wayland before Canonical establishes MIR, then third party video driver support (for example) will flock to Wayland rather than MIR. Gnome's boat will be lifted, Canonical's will sink.
    That might be so, but I can't say I fault the Gnome developers for feeling that after after what Canonical just pulled on everybody.

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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VTPoet View Post
    What does he mean by this? Why is it more urgent for Gnome to get behind Wayland? Tell me I'm wrong but I read (between the lines) something like spite, resentment and contrarianism?
    I think that's a very presumptive and negative way to interpret his statement. Earlier he says:

    So far, we've silently assumed that Wayland is the future display
    system on Linux, and that we will get to using it eventually.
    In other words, it's more likely that (based on Canonical's announcement a few years back that they were getting behind Wayland) they just assumed the distros would make Wayland happen and they'd get around to supporting it when it was happening. Now they realize it's not, and that Wayland is a community effort now.

    I think you greatly underestimate RH and Suse if you think they are irrelevant compared to Canonical. They've both been profitable companies for longer than Canonical has existed.

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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    I haven't read the entire thread, but if Ubuntu goes to Mir and Gnome goes to Wayland, what will happen if you want to install Gnome Shell in Ubuntu?
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

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