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Thread: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

  1. #91
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    Ok, well that's not what you said. You implied that Steam is producing apps specifically for Ubuntu, which is not the case.

    As for your question, I think it illustrates why people are upset about what Canonical is doing. They are introducing fragmentation at a very fundamental level, to the detriment of the community at large. At the same time, if Ubuntu becomes the only distro to use Mir, which I think is likely if it ends up actually succeeding, I don't see third-party developers rushing to write software for it. They wouldn't want their software tied to a single, fallible distribution.
    As a first guess, I'd think that most people who would want to write an app that works with both Ubuntu Touch and desktop Ubuntu would create it with Qt Creator, rather than directly writing a bunch of code that directly manipulates the display server, whether that would be X11, Wayland or Mir. Or they'd write it using some other IDE that deals with the display server-specific code for them. But again, that's just a guess on my part.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatguruguy View Post
    As a first guess, I'd think that most people who would want to write an app that works with both Ubuntu Touch and desktop Ubuntu would create it with Qt Creator, rather than directly writing a bunch of code that directly manipulates the display server, whether that would be X11, Wayland or Mir. Or they'd write it using some other IDE that deals with the display server-specific code for them. But again, that's just a guess on my part.
    That's probably true. Hopefully most software will run on both display servers without issue, so developers can just develop for Linux without having to worry about it. I'm not a developer so I don't know how realistic that is. Seems like at the very least, Canonical would have to provide support for the major toolkits when writing Mir. (Or do the toolkits have to support the display server? Like I said, I'm not exactly sure how it works.)

  3. #93
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    That's probably true. Hopefully most software will run on both display servers without issue, so developers can just develop for Linux without having to worry about it. I'm not a developer so I don't know how realistic that is. Seems like at the very least, Canonical would have to provide support for the major toolkits when writing Mir. (Or do the toolkits have to support the display server? Like I said, I'm not exactly sure how it works.)
    One of the design goals for Mir (and this is also true for Wayland) is to ensure that legacy apps which rely on X11 still run.

    More importantly, I think your earlier statement that "I don't see third-party developers rushing to write software for it. They wouldn't want their software tied to a single, fallible distribution" is fundamentally flawed. Generally speaking, I'd think that if you wanted to reach the largest possible audience of desktop Linux users, you're going to write for the distribution that is used by the largest number of people. Which right now is Ubuntu, by a significant margin (according to all sources that aren't Distrowatch).
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  4. #94
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatguruguy View Post
    One of the design goals for Mir (and this is also true for Wayland) is to ensure that legacy apps which rely on X11 still run.

    More importantly, I think your earlier statement that "I don't see third-party developers rushing to write software for it. They wouldn't want their software tied to a single, fallible distribution" is fundamentally flawed. Generally speaking, I'd think that if you wanted to reach the largest possible audience of desktop Linux users, you're going to write for the distribution that is used by the largest number of people. Which right now is Ubuntu, by a significant margin (according to all sources that aren't Distrowatch).
    While that's true, I don't think that Ubuntu deviating significantly from the rest of the Linux world at a fundamental level really inspires confidence from a developer point of view, especially considering Canonical is a relatively small company without a huge force of programmers. Linux distributions come and go, and Ubuntu is still fairly new in the grand scheme of things.

  5. #95
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    Ok, well that's not what you said. You implied that Steam is producing apps specifically for Ubuntu, which is not the case.

    No, I never wrote that. I just looked through all my posts to confirm that. Maybe you were confusing me with BigSilly, who wrote: "[Steam] chose Ubuntu as its first approach to Linux, as the perception is it's the most popular Linux distro..." I agreed with that and added that this is, in effect, "choosing" Ubuntu.

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    As for your question, I think it illustrates why people are upset about what Canonical is doing. They are introducing fragmentation at a very fundamental level, to the detriment of the community at large. At the same time, if Ubuntu becomes the only distro to use Mir, which I think is likely if it ends up actually succeeding, I don't see third-party developers rushing to write software for it. They wouldn't want their software tied to a single, fallible distribution.
    I disagree with this last part. If it weren't for Ubuntu, I doubt any signigicant third party developers would be tying their software to linux at all (let alone any distros). At the risk of offending, I do get the sense that some of you are suffering delusions of grandeur when it comes to desktop linux. If the broader market comes to the linux desktop, it's going to be on Ubuntu and the evidence already supports that. If Ubuntu switches to MIR, and if 3rd party software must rely on a specific display server, then Ubuntu will be favored. That's my prediction. We'll see if I'm right or wrong...
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  6. #96
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by montag dp View Post
    While that's true, I don't think that Ubuntu deviating significantly from the rest of the Linux world at a fundamental level really inspires confidence from a developer point of view, especially considering Canonical is a relatively small company without a huge force of programmers. Linux distributions come and go, and Ubuntu is still fairly new in the grand scheme of things.
    I guess it depends on whether you define what Canonical is doing is "deviating" or "leading". For years, there hasn't been a significant increase in adoption of desktop Linux. Canonical in particular, and the Ubuntu community as a whole, id trying to change that. As I've argued before, following the way the rest of the Linux community has been heading for all these years hasn't worked; why should anyone expect that following "the rest of the Linux world" is the way to attain greater market penetration, if it hasn't worked yet?

    For most 3d party developers, the display server doesn't really matter, because they don't interact directly with the display server. The display server does matter for developers working on lower-level stuff, like desktop environments (KDE, Gnome, etc.). KDE developers have already stated they aren't ggoing to support Mir, because it is only going to be used by Ubuntu. Essentially, they'd rather support Wayland (which isn't being used by anyone right now) than support Mir, which at least one distro is going to use. I'm no mathematician, but my understanding is 1>0.

    I'm not sure if it really matter that KDE devs won't support Mir, since the flagship Ubuntu product uses Unity as its DE. But the sour grapes that seems to be the go-to response of people to anything that Canonical does gets kinda old.
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Incidentally, I think the primary reason for Canonical stearing Ubuntu away from Wayland and towards Mir is a commercial one that will ultimately benefit users. NVIDIA has stated it won't support Wayland, because the Wayland devs insisted that NVIDIA must expose its codebase to ensure compliance with the Wayland server. Neither NVIDIA nor ATI wants to expose all of their driver code, because they don't want to give any commercial advantage to the other. Canonical has stated that they are working directly with NVIDIA and ATi on Mir, which I'm going to assume to be a true statement. In fact, I'm going to assume that Canonical has promised that they'll allow the development of proprietary drivers without any requirement that said code be open. That may be a loss to those who want all code to be open source, but it'll be a win for those companies and, ultimately, a win for users.
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  8. #98
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatguruguy View Post
    For most 3d party developers, the display server doesn't really matter, because they don't interact directly with the display server. The display server does matter for developers working on lower-level stuff, like desktop environments (KDE, Gnome, etc.). KDE developers have already stated they aren't ggoing to support Mir, because it is only going to be used by Ubuntu. Essentially, they'd rather support Wayland (which isn't being used by anyone right now) than support Mir, which at least one distro is going to use. I'm no mathematician, but my understanding is 1>0.

    I'm not sure if it really matter that KDE devs won't support Mir, since the flagship Ubuntu product uses Unity as its DE..
    I concerned what this will mean for my beloved Xubuntu. I cut my linux teeth on Ubuntu. I want to be able to continue to enjoy all that Xubuntu has now.

    If I have to, I'll go to another distro with Xfce with sadness, as I fear the experience may be diminished for me.

    ;p
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  9. #99
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatguruguy View Post
    KDE developers have already stated they aren't ggoing to support Mir, because it is only going to be used by Ubuntu. Essentially, they'd rather support Wayland (which isn't being used by anyone right now) than support Mir, which at least one distro is going to use. I'm no mathematician, but my understanding is 1>0.
    KDE (and Gnome, and Enlightenment and and and) will continue with the years long work on Wayland, and won't change their plans unless they see Canonical deliver. Seems very reasonable to me.

    Mir is being used in 0 distros now, I know at least 2 experimental distros that are using Wayland right now (Maui and Rebeca Black OS), if we are talking about the future, all the major distros, even Ubuntu, include Wayland in the repositories.
    Last edited by tartalo; March 30th, 2013 at 12:11 PM.

  10. #100
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    Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

    I think if Ubuntu delivers on Mir and its other plans, then no doubt nVidia and ATI etc will develop their drivers for the devices, just as they have for Android. I don't think however, that this will mean that suddenly they'll cease their output for Linux support though. As has been previously stated, Ubuntu is not Linux (and I agree with previous posters that it isn't bigger than Linux either), and this is becoming more and more apparent as they pull away. Nvidia did state they wouldn't support Wayland, but this was a long time ago now. I've no doubt that graphics drivers will still be created for whatever happens to Linux (ie. not Ubuntu) in the future. My honest feeling is that whatever Ubuntu gets up to, this isn't really going to have a massive impact on the rest of the Linux world insofar as driver support. As Clem from Linux Mint stated recently, Mir is irrelevant. In the future, there'll be Ubuntu, and Linux. This makes me sad ultimately, but it's what Mark wants.
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