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Thread: Will kde run on mir at all?

  1. #21
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paqman View Post
    I was aware of that. However, I'm also wary of taking any he-said she-said back-and-forth in the FOSS blogosphere at face value when we're in the middle of another "drama". The real story tends to come out somewhat down the track once heads have cooled in my experience.
    What do you mean by real story? Either something is wrong, or something is right. There's no grey area when it comes to the functionality of Wayland. We're discussing computer programs, not philosophy. In this case Canonical wrote something on the wiki justifying Mir which was wrong. I'm not sure what kind of "real story" could come out to make that seem ok.

    Well if you think they made the decision for non-technical reasons then it should have any bearing on their ability to produce code.
    Not sure what you're saying here. My point was that they clearly don't know what they're doing.

    I'm really not seeing that. What exactly have they done wrong? They don't have to use or support Wayland. Nobody does.
    They said they would support Wayland a few years ago. Developed something else in-house for nine months without telling anybody. Made no effort to contact Wayland developers. Came out with Mir and worst of all spread FUD on their wiki. I'd say that is pretty bad.

  2. #22
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDShu View Post
    Either something is wrong, or something is right.
    Not when you're dealing with people. This is all about what people have said and done and why they've done it. There may also be factors behind Canonical's decision that we're not privy to, such as other projects that are still under wraps, or commercial negotiations/deals, etc. Who knows? Besides, these kind of FOSS spats tend to be characterised by a lot of high emotion, and people say things they might later regret.

    Not sure what you're saying here. My point was that they clearly don't know what they're doing.
    They seem to have managed to bumble through most of the time. They run the most popular Linux distro, and get a release out the door twice a year. They can't be too useless.

    They said they would support Wayland a few years ago.
    Yep, then changed their mind. They're allowed.

    Developed something else in-house for nine months without telling anybody.
    So? That's how they develop a lot of stuff.

    Made no effort to contact Wayland developers.
    The Wayland devs knew Canonical were reviewing their support of Wayland, then they announced they'd decided to drop it. From the sound of it there wasn't really any close ongoing relationship between the two anyway.

    Came out with Mir
    Yes, damn those people who develop new open source software!

    and worst of all spread FUD on their wiki.
    FUD is a bit of an emotive term, it implies their intention was to somehow undermine Wayland. I don't think there's any suggestion of that.

    I think this whole thing (yet another) massive storm in a teacup. People always wail an gnash their teeth about any change to Ubuntu, whether it's buttons on the left, dropping GIMP from the ISO or developing a new shell for Gnome, but none of it has actually led to the sky falling. I'm not saying Canonical are in any way infallible, but the regular doom-laden predictions of their detractors don't seem to be playing out either.

    FWIW I do think trying to develop Mir is incredibly risky, but then so is the whole convergence project, of which a replacement for X is a key component. Canonical only have a limited amount of time to make Ubuntu profitable before they have to shut up shop, and it does feel like they're probably into borrowed time. This stage of the game was always going to be make or break. I think in five years time Ubuntu will have either made significant inroads into the home computing market or else Canonical will have gone bust and Ubuntu will be a fading star community project under the Ubuntu Foundation.

  3. #23
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paqman View Post
    Not when you're dealing with people. This is all about what people have said and done and why they've done it. There may also be factors behind Canonical's decision that we're not privy to, such as other projects that are still under wraps, or commercial negotiations/deals, etc. Who knows? Besides, these kind of FOSS spats tend to be characterised by a lot of high emotion, and people say things they might later regret.
    Canonical made a false claim. They made incorrect statements about the functionalitiy of Wayland. Are you denying this? Whatever "factors behind Canonical's decision that we're not privy to" there is, the fact is that they made incorrect statements and publicly posted them. I'm not talking about people here - come on are you just being purposely dense? The context is what Wayland can do. It can either do something, or it can't do something. I'll be even more specific: Canonical claimed that "Wayland input had all of X's security problems". Either Wayland has all of X's security problems, or it doesn't.

    They seem to have managed to bumble through most of the time. They run the most popular Linux distro, and get a release out the door twice a year. They can't be too useless.
    For how much longer I wonder.

    Yep, then changed their mind. They're allowed.
    They're allowed, sure. But they gave no warning. Doing something you're allowed to do to the detriment of other people is called being a jerk. In this case the detriment is that everybody was expecting eventual Wayland adoption by all the distros, and then Canonical suddenly throws a wrench in the plans.

    So? That's how they develop a lot of stuff.
    Yeah, and it sucks. In fact the stuff they develop tends to be pretty bad. That's another reason why many of us have no faith in them.

    The Wayland devs knew Canonical were reviewing their support of Wayland, then they announced they'd decided to drop it. From the sound of it there wasn't really any close ongoing relationship between the two anyway.
    Canonical made incorrect claims about Wayland when they could have simply asked. It really doesn't sound like Canonical made an honest effort to review Wayland.

    Yes, damn those people who develop new open source software!
    That is highly likely to cause fragmentation.

    FUD is a bit of an emotive term, it implies their intention was to somehow undermine Wayland. I don't think there's any suggestion of that.
    It literally stands for fear, uncertainty, and doubt. When you say that Wayland has input security problems, you are spreading FUD, and whether intentional or not, it's bad behavior.

    I think this whole thing (yet another) massive storm in a teacup. People always wail an gnash their teeth about any change to Ubuntu, whether it's buttons on the left, dropping GIMP from the ISO or developing a new shell for Gnome, but none of it has actually led to the sky falling. I'm not saying Canonical are in any way infallible, but the regular doom-laden predictions of their detractors don't seem to be playing out either.
    And I think Canonical has finally jumped the shark. Perhaps the sky hasn't fallen from any of the individual points stated above but the foundations appear to be crumbling.

    FWIW I do think trying to develop Mir is incredibly risky, but then so is the whole convergence project, of which a replacement for X is a key component. Canonical only have a limited amount of time to make Ubuntu profitable before they have to shut up shop, and it does feel like they're probably into borrowed time. This stage of the game was always going to be make or break. I think in five years time Ubuntu will have either made significant inroads into the home computing market or else Canonical will have gone bust and Ubuntu will be a fading star community project under the Ubuntu Foundation.
    I agree, although I don't think replacing X is as important as Canonical claims. More importantly, I don't see why Canonical couldn't simply fork Wayland. That way they would both have control and avoid reinventing wheels. Still, as long as Mark Shuttleworth has money, I expect Canonical to keep hobbling along, making grand promise after grand promise.

  4. #24
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    I dont understand what the problem is.
    I think it's a great idea that Canonical strives to get their hands dirty. If anything, it's about time. Too much of what they envision for Ubuntu is currently in conflict with what is readily available in terms of software. Putting out their own WM would serve their own needs far better than anything else out there at the moment. And it's fairly obvious to everyone apparently that X just isn't enough for the next step.

    So why not? I'd rather have Canonical put in 100% effort into their vision and get it right (or fail trying to) rather than to just stick to whatever is out there and continue to fail getting anywhere.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paqman View Post
    What exactly have they [Canonical] done wrong? They don't have to use or support Wayland. Nobody does.
    Well, this thread heated when someone said that KDE developers where doing something wrong about Mir, so I guess we have reached a point of agreement.

    By the way Paqman, has Google said something about adopting Mir? That would be really interesting plot twist, but on the meantime Mir is what it is https://launchpad.net/mir No more, no less.

  6. #26
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by fontis View Post
    And it's fairly obvious to everyone apparently that X just isn't enough for the next step.
    Not to everyone, there are quite a few that don't think that replacing X is a good idea at all. And in my opinion they are gaining points lately.

  7. #27
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    I think there's a good point made in this article:


    Wayland Still Working On Minimizing, Maximizing


    "Support for minimize and maximize requests is still being worked on the for the Wayland protocol. Yes, this is to allow windows to be minimized or maximized within the Wayland environment. [...] This work will likely be integrated in time for the next release of Wayland and the reference Weston compositor. This shows how long it takes to design and implement well a full-featured modern display server, with Wayland having been developed for about five years now while Canonical hopes Mir will be ready by later in the year and ready for all form-factors by next April."

    source:
    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTMyMjQ
    Last edited by Dry Lips; March 10th, 2013 at 12:29 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    While I don't fault Ubuntu for going with Mir, I do fault them for the false claims they made against Wayland. Very, very poor job fellas. I've been a life long Ubuntu fan and even I was the first to say that out loud. That said, it's given me some considerable thought to try out other desktop environments. Ironically, I ended up on Kubuntu with KDE. To say I'm happier here is an understatement. I don't care what KDE uses, but I do support KDE with whatever they use just as much as I support Ubuntu/Canonical with whatever they use. It's just the false claims that were made that really, really disappointed me. I don't blame KDE in the slightest for showing disinterest with Mir. Canonical has to understand that they cannot brew up a DS and assume the rest of the world will be anxious to follow and help out. They haven't exactly held the best reputation in the OSS community to attract such behavior from developers of other camps. I hope to see it land and succeed 100 times over again, but I also do believe they're a bit in over their heads, at least based on what I know with Wayland and what kind of development has gone into it already. It'll undoubtedly be interesting to see how it goes though, but part of me thinks the final revision that we see next year will just be a half baked spin off... sort of like Ubuntu Touch running on Cyanogenmod. But in the name of open source software, I'm anxious to see what happens, and I hope it flies.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Well as with everything I will wait patiently and see what happens since I don't understand a lot of it. I just hope it all works out for the better for the users and not for Canonicals personal business gains.

  10. #30
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDShu View Post
    Canonical made a false claim. They made incorrect statements about the functionalitiy of Wayland. Are you denying this?
    No, but frankly who cares? Unless you're involved with either Wayland or Ubuntu then it's someone else's argument. I don't really see why us bystanders need to get emotionally invested in it.

    They're allowed, sure. But they gave no warning.
    Yes they did. Jono Bacon said in an interview to OMGubuntu that Wayland didn't suit their needs back in Jan.

    It really doesn't sound like Canonical made an honest effort to review Wayland.
    You don't really know that.

    It literally stands for fear, uncertainty, and doubt. When you say that Wayland has input security problems, you are spreading FUD, and whether intentional or not, it's bad behavior.
    FUD is a technique for smearing competing products in the media. Simply stating what you think something flaws are isn't FUD, even if you're wrong. It would be FUD if they were doing so with the intention to undermine support for Wayland, but that's not the case here.

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