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Thread: Will kde run on mir at all?

  1. #11
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by ELD View Post
    That's so pathetic and has just made my thoughts of KDE go down hill.
    Seems reasonable to me actually. Why should they spend time and effort maintaining support for one distribution? If two distributions decide to use Mir, then it makes sense to merge it upstream so that work isn't duplicated, but when only one distribution uses it, then they can do it themselves.

  2. #12
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by ELD View Post
    That's so pathetic and has just made my thoughts of KDE go down hill.
    Why? No project would go out of it's way because a single downstream has it's own plans. While the whole Linux ecosystem has been discussing Wayland, Canonical is going its own way without counting on anyone else, even some Ubuntu Community members are angry with the way Canonical is behaving lately, why should KDE developers patch their software to accommodate Mir?
    Last edited by tartalo; March 9th, 2013 at 09:48 PM.

  3. #13
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    The reason it's pathetic is because the wiser choice would simply be to withold judgement until it becomes clear whether Mir or Wayland is the superior system. Why not let them pass and fail on relative merit? If Mir turns out to be simpler and more flexible and usable on more platforms, why wouldn't it be supported? If it crashes and burns, then it's ok to reject it.

    This naysaying in advance just strikes me as childish.

  4. #14
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    It's a given fact that Ubuntu is the most popular Desktop distro, they (KDE) could potentially lose out on a lot of users couldn't they?

    I am looking at this from a user perspective only it just seems pathetic. It just seems very unfriendly of KDE and quite childlike of that person to not accept patches.

    I fail to see how accepting patches is going out of their way.

    Quote Originally Posted by llanitedave View Post
    The reason it's pathetic is because the wiser choice would simply be to withold judgement until it becomes clear whether Mir or Wayland is the superior system. Why not let them pass and fail on relative merit? If Mir turns out to be simpler and more flexible and usable on more platforms, why wouldn't it be supported? If it crashes and burns, then it's ok to reject it.

    This naysaying in advance just strikes me as childish.
    This +99999999.

    It's very schoolyard stuf "oh no he's gone off without us, let's not let him back in!!".

  5. #15
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by llanitedave View Post
    The reason it's pathetic is because the wiser choice would simply be to withold judgement until it becomes clear whether Mir or Wayland is the superior system. Why not let them pass and fail on relative merit? If Mir turns out to be simpler and more flexible and usable on more platforms, why wouldn't it be supported? If it crashes and burns, then it's ok to reject it.
    But he is withholding judgement. He says that if another distribution uses Mir then they will revisit the problem. If Mir turns out to be technically better than Wayland then I'm sure other distributions will adopt it. That all seems very reasonable to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by ELD View Post
    It's a given fact that Ubuntu is the most popular Desktop distro, they (KDE) could potentially lose out on a lot of users couldn't they?

    I am looking at this from a user perspective only it just seems pathetic. It just seems very unfriendly of KDE and quite childlike of that person to not accept patches.

    I fail to see how accepting patches is going out of their way.
    Accepting patches means accepting stewardship of the code and maintaining it even as downstream changes, which requires time and effort, so yes it is going out of their way.

  6. #16
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by tartalo View Post
    While the whole Linux ecosystem has been discussing Wayland, Canonical is going its own way
    Not really. Chrome OS doesn't use Wayland, Android doesn't use Wayland. Canonical talked about using Wayland, but have come to the same conclusion as Google that the best alternative to X is a new display server. If you take Google, Ubuntu and servers out of the "Linux ecosystem" you're not left with a great deal. So Wayland doesn't look like it'll ever be deployed very widely.

  7. #17
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paqman View Post
    Not really. Chrome OS doesn't use Wayland, Android doesn't use Wayland. Canonical talked about using Wayland, but have come to the same conclusion as Google that the best alternative to X is a new display server. If you take Google, Ubuntu and servers out of the "Linux ecosystem" you're not left with a great deal. So Wayland doesn't look like it'll ever be deployed very widely.
    Two things. Google is not part of the "Linux ecosystem". They're well known for going their own way and causing problems for people in the community - see Chrome/Chromium which causes packaging problems. It works out fine for them because Google is a massive corporation with proven revenue stream and ridiculously smart engineers. That's why they can pull off things like Android and ChromeOS and reinvent the wheel a couple times. This brings us to my second point: Canonical is not Google. Canonical is not provably profitable and their engineers are no better than the X devs (and from what we know, certainly worse when it comes to display servers). And display servers are a very hard problem, which is why we only have one that is currently in widespread use. Frankly, nobody with any technical knowledge thinks they can pull this off.

    What has struck me about this debate is that there has been a clear divide between people with some technical background and people who don't (plus Canonical). Anybody who knows anything about software development and the current state of FOSS can see why Mir is a bad idea and have given reasons for why. Defenders of Mir simply fall back on the idea that "Canonical can do whatever it wants" which nobody disputes, "Everybody else is just bitter" which is not a technical argument, and "Let's wait and see how Mir develops" while ignoring our reasons for why we think Canonical has set itself up for failure.

  8. #18
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDShu View Post
    Two things. Google is not part of the "Linux ecosystem".
    Says who? They contribute a lot of code to Linux, sponsor lots of outside development, own the overwhelmingly dominant Linux distro in the mobile space, have released a desktop Linux distro, and use Linux very extensively. What more would they have to do for you to consider them part of the club? Change their logo to a penguin?

    Canonical is not Google.
    Agreed. They may be smaller fry overall, but in the small pond of desktop Linux they're a pretty big fish.

    Anybody who knows anything about software development and the current state of FOSS can see why Mir is a bad idea
    Not "anybody". Are Canonical's leadership not included in those who "know anything about software development"? Is Mark Shuttleworth? How do you know they haven't researched and prototyped this to the point where they've decided it's feasible? I doubt the decision to abandon Wayland and start afresh was taken lightly, and I'm sure they're well aware that they've got a huge mountain to climb.

    Maybe they're wrong to do so, maybe Mir will indeed fall on its face, but writing a project off before you've seen the output from it simply because the task is difficult is premature and defeatist.

    Since you can't change what they're going to do, what's the point in complaining about it anyway?

  9. #19
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paqman View Post
    Says who? They contribute a lot of code to Linux, sponsor lots of outside development, own the overwhelmingly dominant Linux distro in the mobile space, have released a desktop Linux distro, and use Linux very extensively. What more would they have to do for you to consider them part of the club? Change their logo to a penguin?
    I think I'll just give you this because arguing the semantics of the "Linux Ecosystem" is pointless. The fact that Canonical is not Google is more important.

    Agreed. They may be smaller fry overall, but in the small pond of desktop Linux they're a pretty big fish.
    Their relative size doesn't matter, the point is that it's extremely unlikely they'll pull a big project like Mir off.

    Not "anybody". Are Canonical's leadership not included in those who "know anything about software development"? Is Mark Shuttleworth? How do you know they haven't researched and prototyped this to the point where they've decided it's feasible? I doubt the decision to abandon Wayland and start afresh was taken lightly, and I'm sure they're well aware that they've got a huge mountain to climb.

    Maybe they're wrong to do so, maybe Mir will indeed fall on its face, but writing a project off before you've seen the output from it simply because the task is difficult is premature and defeatist.
    HAHAHA this is an easy one. You haven't done a lot of research into this have you?

    Ok, to be fair I should have said "Nobody with any technical knowledge who is not from Canonical". But I thought that went without saying.

    On to the real substance. The reasons they gave on their wiki for not using Wayland were actually incorrect. The wayland devs called them out on it and they apologized and edited the wiki. Perhaps they put a lot of thought into abandoning wayland, but none of that was technical. The reason for Mir is certainly political. It's about Canonical's need to control everything on Ubuntu. That's valid and I don't personally blame them for it. However the fact that they couldn't even get a basic understanding of Wayland right makes it quite clear that they don't know what they're doing on the technical front.

    Do you think a group of people who can't even properly evaluate existing solutions could actually implement their own? In one year?

    Since you can't change what they're going to do, what's the point in complaining about it anyway?
    I'm not complaining, I'm saying they're going to fail. How badly they'll fail is an open question. That said, I can see why some people are angry, Canonical has acted very badly (well, worse than usual) this time around.

    EDIT: Oh, and I'm explaining why the KDE devs are free to not include Mir patches upstream. The way I see it, it's Ubuntu fans who are complaining.
    Last edited by JDShu; March 10th, 2013 at 02:19 AM.

  10. #20
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    Re: Will kde run on mir at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDShu View Post
    The reasons they gave on their wiki for not using Wayland were actually incorrect.
    I was aware of that. However, I'm also wary of taking any he-said she-said back-and-forth in the FOSS blogosphere at face value when we're in the middle of another "drama". The real story tends to come out somewhat down the track once heads have cooled in my experience.

    Do you think a group of people who can't even properly evaluate existing solutions could actually implement their own. In one year?
    Well if you think they made the decision for non-technical reasons then it shouldn't have any bearing on their ability to produce code.

    Canonical has acted very badly (well, worse than usual) this time around.
    I'm really not seeing that. What exactly have they done wrong? They don't have to use or support Wayland. Nobody does.
    Last edited by Paqman; March 10th, 2013 at 02:34 AM.

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