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Thread: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

  1. #71
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    Quote Originally Posted by VeeDubb View Post
    I would say there's really only two reasonably likely outcomes.

    a. Wayland falls by the wayside.

    b. Ubuntu fails.


    Every significant desktop linux distro out there runs X.

    Having different distros running different display servers would cripple the entire linux community.

    It appears that most of the major distros have recognized that X needs to be replaced, and up until now, Wayland seemed to be the new direction.

    By abandoning Wayland in favor of MIR, Ubuntu is putting all their eggs in one basket and hoping that it will be so awesome that every major distro follows them or gives up and dies. If that happens, then great. More people running one distro means better support, a more active community, and most importantly it means that software developers will focus more on Ubuntu. It's a giant bag of win. The problem is that if everybody else moves forward with Wayland, Ubuntu will be the odd-man out. Commercially produced software will be non-existent, and the community will suffer, wither and die.

    Effectively, canonical is playing chicken with the rest of the linux world.
    I think it's a little thick to consider that Ubuntu (or the Linux community) could die. Worst case scenario is I see both Wayland and Mir co-existing just fine, however which one will be commercially supported is another story.

    Does anybody have any sort of idea what Mir would be licensed with? (likely a silly question due to the young announcement). Reason I ask is some people are like no big deal it'll be open source etc. What concerns me is to what kind of open source license it'll be. Didn't Canonical license Unity in a way that would force developers to contribute upstream to Canonical only or something? I thought I remember reading that the Unity license was open source with a twist. I wonder if Mir will be the same way.

    I can't help but to continuously look at Red Hat during all of this. Not to point any fingers, but don't the majority of Gnome developers work for Red Hat/Fedora to begin with? One could argue that this sort of in-house catering is already done elsewhere. I suppose a display manager could be a different beast, but a desktop environment is far from minor.
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  2. #72
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    Quote Originally Posted by Roasted View Post
    I think it's a little thick to consider that Ubuntu (or the Linux community) could die. Worst case scenario is I see both Wayland and Mir co-existing just fine, however which one will be commercially supported is another story.
    I never intended to suggest that the linux community as a whole would die. I was referring specifically to the Ubuntu community. That said, many distros have died out over the years, and many others have faded from the limelight to obscurity. There's nothing thick about looking at historical precedent and drawing reasonable conclusions based on established patterns.

    I can't even begin to count the number of times that I've helped or been helped by someone running a different flavor of linux. If we ever reach a point where Ubuntu is running MIR and everybody else is on Wayland, that comes to a screeching halt. We become an isolated community.

    Further, while I don't believe it would kill the linux community, I do believe that a world with "Wayland and Mir coexisting just fine" would set back the commercial availability of software by years. One of the biggest complaints of commercial developers has been how deeply fractured the linux world is. This can make it difficult create an application that works without any headaches across multiple distros. That's gotten MUCH better over the last few years, but developers hesitant to port their work to an already small community (by comparison) are going to be even more hesitant when they have to either do it twice or choose which of two even smaller communities to support. Those that do continue to develop commercial software will either pick whichever is more prevalent (not Mir) or they'll continue to write software for X, which will be sub-par in XMir or XWayland.

    Granted, Mir could take the linux world by storm and crush Wayland. I'd be fine with that. But if it doesn't, I just don't see this ending well for Canonical.
    Last edited by VeeDubb; March 6th, 2013 at 08:38 PM.
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  3. #73
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    Quote Originally Posted by Roasted View Post
    Does anybody have any sort of idea what Mir would be licensed with?
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...1#post12542431

  4. #74
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    Quote Originally Posted by VeeDubb View Post
    Further, while I don't believe it would kill the linux community, I do believe that a world with "Wayland and Mir coexisting just fine" would set back the commercial availability of software by years. One of the biggest complaints of commercial developers has been how deeply fractured the linux world is. This can make it difficult create an application that works without any headaches across multiple distros. That's gotten MUCH better over the last few years, but developers hesitant to port their work to an already small community (by comparison) are going to be even more hesitant when they have to either do it twice or choose which of two even smaller communities to support. Those that do continue to develop commercial software will either pick whichever is more prevalent (not Mir) or they'll continue to write software for X, which will be sub-par in XMir or XWayland.
    Most software development isn't targeted for X, it is written using a particular toolkit such as GTK or QT.

    Once GTK and QT have been developed to a stage where they can use Weyland, Mir or X as a backend then software doesn't need to know or even care what display server you are running, as all of the communication with the display server is handled by whichever toolkit you are using.
    Cheesemill

  5. #75
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    Quote Originally Posted by VeeDubb View Post
    developers hesitant to port their work to an already small community (by comparison) are going to be even more hesitant when they have to either do it twice or choose which of two even smaller communities to support. Those that do continue to develop commercial software will either pick whichever is more prevalent (not Mir) or they'll continue to write software for X, which will be sub-par in XMir or XWayland.
    But, don't GTK and QT toolkits save those headaches to the app developers? How many user apps talk directly to X?

    The graphic card drivers are however a different issue, Mir plans to use the Android driver infrastructure, and that would be different to X or Wayland, in this area the kind of problems you predict seem more possible to me.

    EDIT: Beaten by Cheesemill

  6. #76
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    Quote Originally Posted by tartalo View Post
    But, don't GTK and QT toolkits save those headaches to the app developers? How many user apps talk directly to X?
    Window managers, for one.

    Applications that don't use GTK or QT, or require older versions of these toolkits, will be in trouble.

  7. #77
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    It will be interesting to see the results when implimented.

    Brave move or not , when we have lowpower / Mhtz cpu with high power graphics , then if something stands in the way , something will give.

    here is an aspect to look at , If got the lastest highest spec machine and the graphics don't run any faster than an Amiga from 80's,

    we have to be asking ourselves a question.

    I know what I will be doing.

    BR

    Alex

    PS I saw somewhere about support for x11 , this should enable developers enough time to adjust , will it or will it not.
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  8. #78
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    I think this puts a lot of pressure on the Wayland devs to get Wayland ready quickly. They will be ready before MIR is ready by a long shot imho. Lets face it, Ubuntu has over promised and under delivered too many times to be believed. I'm not saying I am against the move to MIR. I'm just stating the obvious. I have a feeling Ubuntu will have MIR ready for the mobile but the desktop will suffer greatly. They will lose a huge amount of their users and that will alienate corporate interest because Ubuntu's track record of decision making and following through can't be relied on. Without their user base they have nothing to push adoption by manufacturers. This is a very risky move for them. They really need to reassure their users. I don't think empty words will do.

  9. #79
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    Quote Originally Posted by BigCityCat View Post
    I think this puts a lot of pressure on the Wayland devs to get Wayland ready quickly.
    Ready for what? They have a stable version (currently 1.0.5) and both GTK+ and Qt support it.

    Wayland is ready but there are still no binary drivers for it (from nVidia and AMD). The situation could change but now they'll continue to make drivers for X.Org most likely waiting for the war to end. And this is how Mir will hurt everyone in the Linux community. Not just Ubuntu users, not just Wayland developers, everyone.

  10. #80
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    Re: MIR will be the new display server, and Unity will be ported to Qt

    I too wonder what will become of Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, and Ubuntu Studio when Ubuntu makes the move to Mir. Not only that, what will become of the tons of Ubuntu-based distros out there, especially Linux Mint? I know Ubuntu will still support X for those apps that require it,but how long will it continue to support X before all those distros have to decide? Are they going to go with Mir as well? And that brings forth another question... will Mir support all the different desktop environments (GNOME, KDE, Xfce, LXDE, E17, Pantheon, Openbox, etc.) out there like X currently does? If it will, and there's enough legacy support for older hardware, older software, etc.... then there shouldn't be too much to worry about. But for now, there are far FAR more questions, lots of FUD, etc. regarding Ubuntu's decision to develop their own display server.

    There are definitely some big changes ahead for all of the Linux community in light of this news... way bigger than even the implimentation of systemd in some of the big distros (i.e. Fedora and Arch). Wayland was already promising itself to be the next big thing, possibly as the replacement for X. That in itself was going to be a big step in the evolution of Linux. Now the problem is we have Canonical bringing out Mir, another display server thrown into the fray, making Linux even more fragmented than it already is. The problem is: When Mir does take off, where will software and hardware support development go and who will they favor? Will it lean more toward Ubuntu and thus Mir, will it lean toward Wayland if it does finally take off, or will it stick with X? The biggest questions as far as software development and hardware support will definitely be aimed straight at AMD and NVidia. Are they going to end up choosing a side, and thus dictate which direction the Linux community goes, or will it support multiple display servers? And in addition to that... will they still support older hardware on whatever display server they decide to favor? I know AMD already doesn't support their older hardware with their newest Linux drivers.

    It'd be quite interesting to see what happens to the Linux community whenever Mir takes off. Though I do wonder:

    What does Linus Torvalds think about all this?
    Last edited by viperdvman; March 7th, 2013 at 05:25 AM.
    Don't like Unity? Hate it? Not your cup of coffee? Ubuntu does provide choices. There's GNOME Shell, KDE Plasma, Xfce, LXDE, and now MATE and Cinnamon. Take your pick



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