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Thread: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-forum?

  1. #81
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    Quote Originally Posted by ventrical View Post
    I think this sums it up as far as all the bad press-

    'If you’ve done what you want for Ubuntu, then move on. That’s normal – there’s no need to poison the well behind you just because you want to try something else.'

    We can see Mr. Shutleworths frustrations rise up here. After all, in all fairness, is it not he who is actually the work-horse that is doing all the heavy lifting?
    I've been involved one way or the other with FOSS for over 15 years, and it has always bothered me the way the egos clash, and the venom spews. I totally understand Mark's frustrations. He has a certain goal of quality and coherence that he wants to achieve, and if upstream can't/won't accomodate this in a timeframe that he finds acceptable, he'll have Canonical take it on. If anyone doesn't like that, well, fine. But the backbiting and conspiracy theories just make the FOSS community look like a bunch of whiny whiners [full disclosure: I must admit I have been one of them at times (cough*Unity*cough) ]

    The other thing that really gets my goat is the sense of entitlement some people seem to feel. Yes, a lot of us have put in a lot of volunteer time over the years, and one would like to know what's going on. But at the end of the day, we are getting an awful lot of excellent free software to work with and play with. Mark has always pointed out that there's "the community" and there's "leadership". If you want to achieve a certain goal on a certain timeline, you need leadership, and can't dither around trying to assuage everyone's feelings. That's just the nature of the beast, and yes, for sure it feels suckful sometimes. Hey, there's always Debian!

    But some of the idiotic stuff that people have be spouting about Ubuntu, Canonical, and Mark really makes me sick. Half of it is because Ubuntu is popular and successful, and the FOSS community can't stand it. I've seen this again and again in the FOSS world - something becomes successful, tear it down! One of the constant cries I've heard down the years when people don't like a change is "they're forcing it down our throat". No, they're not. They made a change. Don't like it? There are umpty-jillion alternatives.

    This is turning into a rant that I didn't intend, so... </rant>

  2. #82
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    Cononical did change focus from software provider to software provider and software maker and i guess this is the transition phase where there are still a lot of rough edges to iron out. Decisions made today will be seen in few year time and it's probably wise to sometimes see what will actually happen then to presume what will/would happen.

    Being upfront and transparent is probably the best strategy and interested parties can then choose if they want to follow that path or not.

  3. #83
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    Quote Originally Posted by sgage View Post
    I've been involved one way or the other with FOSS for over 15 years, and it has always bothered me the way the egos clash, and the venom spews. I totally understand Mark's frustrations. He has a certain goal of quality and coherence that he wants to achieve, and if upstream can't/won't accomodate this in a timeframe that he finds acceptable, he'll have Canonical take it on. If anyone doesn't like that, well, fine. But the backbiting and conspiracy theories just make the FOSS community look like a bunch of whiny whiners [full disclosure: I must admit I have been one of them at times (cough*Unity*cough) ]

    The other thing that really gets my goat is the sense of entitlement some people seem to feel. Yes, a lot of us have put in a lot of volunteer time over the years, and one would like to know what's going on. But at the end of the day, we are getting an awful lot of excellent free software to work with and play with. Mark has always pointed out that there's "the community" and there's "leadership". If you want to achieve a certain goal on a certain timeline, you need leadership, and can't dither around trying to assuage everyone's feelings. That's just the nature of the beast, and yes, for sure it feels suckful sometimes. Hey, there's always Debian!

    But some of the idiotic stuff that people have be spouting about Ubuntu, Canonical, and Mark really makes me sick. Half of it is because Ubuntu is popular and successful, and the FOSS community can't stand it. I've seen this again and again in the FOSS world - something becomes successful, tear it down! One of the constant cries I've heard down the years when people don't like a change is "they're forcing it down our throat". No, they're not. They made a change. Don't like it? There are umpty-jillion alternatives.

    This is turning into a rant that I didn't intend, so... </rant>
    I think it is a rant that we all need to hear. Shuttleworth and Canonical have to move on. It's the nature of the buisness but in the process he leaves the FOSS community with a real coherent and comprehensive operating system that the whole world can enjoy - and he makes the very clear point that it is because of all of *us*. This then does not speak about the "I"s but, rather the "we's" (err umm I know that don't sound right but I think most get my drift). Mark is a genius in buisness, computer sciences and in his wordsmithing but I think that this is where the abyss may be. Devs and beta-testers are , (for a greater percentage of the time) working on whats under the hood. Beta testers for sure, swapping hard-drives, processors and trying out all sorts of hardware. But Mark speaks in a higher bar than most of us and it is difficult (at times) to understand his core reasoning. He is trying to mobilize a concept with words. (I am often guilty of this myself). This is very enthusiastic and has great motivational potential for the most part but it is hard to understand from the point of veiw of being on the assembly line or at the receiving end of the Turing machine.

    It's like a CEO of an automotive company going on the floor of his buisness and telling his workers;
    "Ok .. guys .. you are doing really great work , but, guess what!!, we decided that the current engine does not meet our requirment needs and so we are going with a new engine, The new engine is not built yet but it will be more efficient and more powerful that the current one. We will keep the current engine in the line until the new engine is built. This new engine will help us compete globally and be the frontrunners in the automotive buisness..... The new engine will be sexy , punchy and beautiful. It will deliver a new experience to drivers that they have never had before..."

    So you see.. this just does not work because by this time all the workers on the line have their jaws dropped to the floor and haven't got a clue what the boss is talking about. Designers and developers are in a spin and the marketing team is ready to move south.

    Computer concepts are very well left up to the conceptualists , programming to programmers, developers to developing and hacking to hackers. In between it all there has to be an intermediary to catalyze all those efforts into a goal based vision - and Mark has been that man .. but I think that more common ground is needed with the language. The best programs are usually small and simple - na's pa?
    Last edited by ventrical; March 8th, 2013 at 12:45 AM.
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  4. #84
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    It's new territority, and it's a balancing act for sure...

  5. #85
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    OK, the latest news:

    https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ch/036872.html

    Hi all,

    There has been a lot of discussion and impact around the strawman
    proposal for changing our release cadence that I sent last Thursday.
    There was a misconception that the proposal was a decision that I was
    masking as a call for discussion. I want to reassure everyone that I
    really did mean it as a discussion. I feel passionately that we need
    to change and innovate in this area, but a change like this cannot
    succeed, or in fact be made, without discussion in the community and
    proper governance.

    Discussion of this topic on the mailing list and at UDS this week was
    wide ranging. There were a lot of divergent opinions and ideas. The
    discussion seems to have resulted in roughly three different forms of
    proposals.

    1. Move to a rolling release similar to what I proposed in the
    original straw man.
    2. Continue to release interim releases but only support them until
    roughly the next interim release 6 months later.
    3. Dramatically increase the rate of our releases to, say, once per month.

    I've attempted to capture the essence of these proposals (and
    associated sub-proposals) along with a structure for points and
    counterpoints in wiki format to support honing and organizing. They
    are currently stubs, so will need detailed content and continued
    honing, but the wiki format invites collaboration on that honing.

    See:
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseCadence
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseCadence/RollingRelease
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseCaden...InterimRelease
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseCaden...onthlyReleases

    I'd like to invite everyone who is interested to get their input into
    these pages by March 18th (or thereabouts). Then I'd like to work with
    interested people to select what we consider the best proposal to take
    to the technical board for guidance.

    Part of the straw man proposal was to convert 13.04 into a Rolling
    Release in order to allow us to go faster on the converged OS starting
    immediately. Given the work that is left to achieve a proper proposal
    for the tech board, I don't foresee such a proposal being completed in
    time to make such a radical change to 13.04.


    Cheers, Rick

  6. #86
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    So that mean 13.04 will be supported untill this October, right? So there'll be 13.10 release in October?

  7. #87
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    Quote Originally Posted by serdotlinecho View Post
    So that mean 13.04 will be supported untill this October, right? So there'll be 13.10 release in October?
    No, at least not yet. It only means that three proposals have been put forward. No final decision has been made.

  8. #88
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    Thanks kansasnoob.

    I will look through those links. <disclaimer> I have not been following this thread</disclaimer> I do not think that anyone has posted a link to this at QA home page

    http://qa.ubuntu.com/

    And it is testing and how we fit in that concerns this section of the forum. Here are some of my thoughts.

    1) code branches
    1a) 12.04 LTS branch
    1b) Development branch (13.10 rolling) becoming 14.04 LTS branch
    1c) May 14.04 development branch (rolling) becoming 16.04 LTS branch
    1d) May 16.04 development branch (rolling) becoming 18.04 LTS branch ... and so on
    2) ISO images and testing of same
    2a) 12.04 LTS point release ISO images
    2b) The development branch to be insync with the LTS point release cadence/schedule. That is a development point release every six months
    2c) The 6 monthly development branch release cadence becomes the next LTS (14.04) point release cadence
    3) Getting the development branch and updating the same
    3a) Download and install the latest 6 monthly development branch point release
    3b) Update daily, two weekly, monthly or never. No need to reconfigure the settings in Update Manager to be different from the stable (LTS) release.

    The present 13.04 code base is very different from the 12.04 code base. Consider them to be separate branches of the trunk. A development branch comes to its end when it becomes the next LTS release. The next month a new development branch is started and this branch is developed for 2 years until it becomes an LTS release. The 12.04 LTS will have 8 x ISO images by April 2014. So, a development branch will have the same number of ISO images. The last ISO image being the next LTS release image.

    When converting a snapshot of the code base to make an ISO image do not go strictly according to a calender schedule. Take into account the need to avoid untested upstream code that may be merged close to the end of the 6 months period. Do I need to say it? I see no point in a monthly snapshot or in doing monthly updates. Extra work.

    Well, there you have it according to Graham. Make sense?

    Regards.
    Last edited by grahammechanical; March 9th, 2013 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Added additional information
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  9. #89
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    I haven't seen this linked in this thread, but Mark doesn't seem to think that rolling releases are a very good idea. I think we can safely say that rolling releases won't become a reality without a lot more discussion, and then it has to go up before the Ubuntu Technical Board. If and when this happens, I'm sure we will get plenty of notice.
    Last edited by cariboo907; March 9th, 2013 at 11:42 PM. Reason: fixed broken link

  10. #90
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    Re: Suggestion: Rolling / monthly release. What's going to happen on ubuntu +1 sub-fo

    Reading Mark's blog...i get the impression that he would prefer ubuntu come out say, about every 2 months or so instead of 6 months, and to make upgrading "bullet proof" (meaning without risk of any breakage) so that you could install ubuntu and keep upgrading that way...getting the rolling distro effect on a bit slower basis, but i guess in his mind, more reliable...

    I guess it would work something like this: you install ubuntu 13.04 then do upgrades for: 13.06 then 13.08, etc etc...so no re-installing needed, but getting new versions with updated software, and other stuff...
    in between you'd probably just get essential updates...

    And for someone downloading ubuntu initially, you'd find the latest 2 month image on there to download, so you start off current...

    Just my guess, as i said...based on the thoughts he expressed about it...
    Last edited by craig10x; March 10th, 2013 at 04:43 AM.

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