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Thread: White House Linux Migration Petition

  1. #21
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by manzdagratiano View Post
    I never said Bug #1 is about trying to force people to use Linux anyway - I completely agree with said philosophy! But this Bug is a mission at the very least, if not a war... And the fact that the government should move to GNU/Linux is not something I would like to see for my personal gag-reel, but is something that is logically beneficial - at least in the long term - for reasons I have already iterated here.
    I don't believe that bug was the start of a war, but a motivation to propel Ubuntu to new levels. Word it how you want, but pushing a petition is a means to try to force someone into doing something.

    Do you realize how big and complex the US government is, and how much it would take to switch everything over to Linux? It's not going to be so simple as backing up their Word documents and having everyone learn how to use LibreOffice instead. And you'd better hope nobody in the US government uses MS Access. It would cost a lot in retraining everyone to use, administrate, and maintain systems. It would cost the taxpayers an untold amount in manpower hours of not just installing Linux, but changing how all of the databases, networks, etc. work. It would pretty much shut the government down during all of this changeover and testing. It would be hard enough for an office to change over, but we're talking about the US government, which is a giant monster.

    About security, do you really think that people can't hack Linux? They don't hack Linux because nobody important uses it. They don't give a rat's backside about creating trojans and malware for an OS that a relatively few number of geeks use. If the US government switched to Linux, people would be all over it in no time.

    Quote Originally Posted by manzdagratiano View Post
    Making Ubuntu awesome enough for people to want to use it is not enough - it already IS awesome enough.
    Ubuntu is awesome, but it is not "awesome enough". If it were awesome enough, it would be so great that everyone would be moved to get rid of what they have that already works and replace it with this thing that is so obviously better that it's worth the time and effort. Ubuntu is "awesome enough" for you and me, but not for the masses. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to be so awesome that people like my grandma would be willing to give up all of their windows-only software and setup that they're familiar with.

    Also, not every Ubuntu user even cares about Bug #1.

    I'm not saying I'd be disappointed if the government used Linux. But realistically, I know it's not going to happen, and that after they already have this much invested in their setup, it's not necessarily a logical move.
    Last edited by forrestcupp; April 6th, 2012 at 02:58 PM.
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

  2. #22
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    It would be hard enough for an office to change over, but we're talking about the US government, which is a giant monster.

    About security, do you really think that people can't hack Linux? They don't hack Linux because nobody important uses it. They don't give a rat's backside about creating trojans and malware for an OS that a relatively few number of geeks use. If the US government switched to Linux, people would be all over it in no time.

    Ubuntu is awesome, but it is not "awesome enough". If it were awesome enough, it would be so great that everyone would be moved to get rid of what they have that already works and replace it with this thing that is so obviously better that it's worth the time and effort. Ubuntu is "awesome enough" for you and me, but not for the masses. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to be so awesome that people like my grandma would be willing to give up all of their windows-only software and setup that they're familiar with.

    Also, not every Ubuntu user even cares about Bug #1.
    Moving over an entire government's platform is indeed a Leviathan task, and is not accomplished in a day's task, but it can be done starting out small - how about this approach? - Declare a public policy that the government intends to switch over to GNU/Linux. Then mark out a long-term plan - say 10 years if necessary - detailing how and in what concert who shall be switching in order that the government is not brought down; the NSA already used Linux - they developed SELinux after all. If some initial expertise is in place, one small unit/office at a time will, over a long period, achieve this goal - by no means will this be a trivial plan, but it is by no means impossible as well.

    Just like a Highway reconstruction project - you do not replace all of the Highway in a day by shutting it down; you isolate small areas and you cause a slight inconvenience to traffic, but the flow of traffic continues nonetheless. Having lived in New Jersey, I can assure you I see this in implementation pretty much every day, and it works! - the small effects coalesce to form the big gigantic effect you eventually want to see.

    Also, I duly concede Linux can be hacked - it would be absurd to think otherwise. The benefit here, though, as I said, is that of open ground. If someone can hack your system, you have the same tools to secure your system they used to hack it - at every level. With a closed source system, an attacker who can transparently see the internals of the system (the Chinese Government can, for instance, but it is not my statement that they are in the hacker's garb) definitely has the upper hand - they can exploit what you cannot fix!

    And about awesomeness - I beg to differ. Ubuntu IS awesome enough. I have tested this myself - with my Father- and Mother-in-law, neither of who is a programmer or even a technology enthusiast, and would probably not even recognize the words Linux or GNU if they saw it referenced (only the word `Ubuntu' is familiar to them). They do not miss their Windows systems one bit, and they have with Ubuntu what they wanted with a functional system - it boots up fast, has a sleek interface, has all these free games you can download with two clicks, connects to printers and the like just by plugging the printer in, and keeps on running no matter what; their Windows desktop had become abominably slow, to the point they wanted change. Sure they may not be able to or even wish to diagnose advanced problems, but then again, if they had a problem with, say, the network card in Windows, they would not wish to do so there either.

    People do not use free software not because it is not awesome, but because a monopolizing OS has managed to set itself up as a standard, and the scepticism that if one deviates from the standard suddenly things will "stop working" is all too powerful.

    Ubuntu users may not care about Bug #1, but here we are a community that does, and it is up to us to see it through.

    Remember BeOS? It exists in the modern avatar that is Haiku. At the time of its introduction, it was a revolutionary thing, offering a sleek interface like no other. It failed miserably, since Microsoft did not allow vendors to install it as a dual boot - even after BeOS had offered to give the vendors the licensing for free if they did so. Microsoft would not have vendors sell something that tampered with the Windows bootloader - they could install it on the system, but without tampering it they said. The result? When BeOS did ship installed on a partition that the end-user never saw because there was no way to get to it from the bootloader, it faded away as expected.

    If marketing were fair play and monopolies did not exist, and then someone pointed out to me that Ubuntu and GNU/Linux are not awesome enough to give up the Windows systems, I would concede, and back off. But that is not the case here, and is likely not to be the case until a huge power challenges this monopoly.

    We have tried rebuke in the form of antitrust laws with Microsoft - and we all know how that went. The only next thing possible is indifference - tell Microsoft that sure, they can exist and do what they want to, but the Government is not answerable to them, and will not play ball with something that does not offer the advantages a system with open ground offers.
    Last edited by manzdagratiano; April 6th, 2012 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Minor grammatical
    Be formless, shapeless... like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup; you put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; if you put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot... Now water can flow, or it can crash... Be water my friend

  3. #23
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by manzdagratiano View Post
    Moving over an entire government's platform is indeed a Leviathan task, and is not accomplished in a day's task, but it can be done starting out small - how about this approach? - Declare a public policy that the government intends to switch over to GNU/Linux. Then mark out a long-term plan - say 10 years if necessary - detailing how and in what concert who shall be switching in order that the government is not brought down; the NSA already used Linux - they developed SELinux after all. If some initial expertise is in place, one small unit/office at a time will, over a long period, achieve this goal - by no means will this be a trivial plan, but it is by no means impossible as well.
    I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. And if it were done, the process you laid out is how it would have to be done. Other governments have successfully switched over, but I doubt if any of them are as huge as the US government.

    I believe that if it were done like you say, it definitely could be done. I just highly doubt if you are going to convince the people that could make a difference that it would be worth it to go through that process, especially after they figured out how much it would cost to switch to this "free" OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by manzdagratiano View Post
    And about awesomeness - I beg to differ. Ubuntu IS awesome enough. I have tested this myself - with my Father- and Mother-in-law, neither of who is a programmer or even a technology enthusiast, and would probably not even recognize the words Linux or GNU if they saw it referenced (only the word `Ubuntu' is familiar to them). They do not miss their Windows systems one bit, and they have with Ubuntu what they wanted with a functional system - it boots up fast, has a sleek interface, has all these free games you can download with two clicks, connects to printers and the like just by plugging the printer in, and keeps on running no matter what;
    Hey, I agree that it is awesome. That's why I use Ubuntu. But you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of people who just use their computers as a tool, and they don't care one ounce about what OS is on it. If it already works the way it comes, it's just not worth it to go through the hassle of installing a whole new OS and setting it up to work how their computer already worked with Windows. Ubuntu isn't any better at viewing Facebook and emails than Windows is, and that's all a lot of people care about.

    I'm afraid that Ubuntu is always going to be an awesome, niche market. And it doesn't really matter to me what everyone else is using. I'm happy with what I am using.
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

  4. #24
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by manzdagratiano View Post
    Remember BeOS? It exists in the modern avatar that is Haiku. At the time of its introduction, it was a revolutionary thing, offering a sleek interface like no other. It failed miserably, since Microsoft did not allow vendors to install it as a dual boot. . .
    BeOS didn't fail because of any MS conspiracy theory. It failed miserably because it was feature-incomplete. At the time of its initial release it couldn't even print, and it was more of a slick developer preview than an OS. Apple considered using BeOS as the base for what would become OS X, but the combination of the massive amount of work necessary to complete it, combined with the price Gassée was asking (a decision he later admitted was a huge mistake) made it a non-starter. What if MS had allowed it to ship on PCs? People would've had the option between an OS which worked for day-to-day things and a cool-looking toy OS which didn't do much.

    And, by the way, the US Government already uses Linux. In fact, the government, including the DoD, uses just about every conceivable OS under the sun, including various flavors of Linux, Windows, OS X, VMS, *nix, etc. When appropriate, the government is as flexible as any enormous bureaucracy can be.

  5. #25
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
    I'm afraid that Ubuntu is always going to be an awesome, niche market. And it doesn't really matter to me what everyone else is using. I'm happy with what I am using.
    Quote Originally Posted by dpny View Post
    BeOS didn't fail because of any MS conspiracy theory. It failed miserably because it was feature-incomplete. At the time of its initial release it couldn't even print, and it was more of a slick developer preview than an OS. Apple considered using BeOS as the base for what would become OS X, but the combination of the massive amount of work necessary to complete it, combined with the price Gassée was asking (a decision he later admitted was a huge mistake) made it a non-starter. What if MS had allowed it to ship on PCs? People would've had the option between an OS which worked for day-to-day things and a cool-looking toy OS which didn't do much.
    I personally too would have been fine with GNU/Linux being the niche market - for one, I think it brings about more freedom with regard to development, etc, if you are not answerable to a larger base; and second, I think hackers/geeks thrive on the element of having this air of the underground, in which the development of GNU/Linux began. However, that would be the case when the market played fair, and monopolies were rooted out - no matter how much progress we've made, we always seem to dangerously linger at the precipice where the existence of GNU/Linux on the desktop is being threatened (I firmly believe that GNU/Linux is always going to be all-pervasive, and forever the king of the server market) - even a few months ago, the Secure Boot business could have potentially locked out GNU/Linux from vendor-sold laptops - we all know how much they respect the user's freedom when it comes to versus doing business with Microsoft. But noise was made, and now it seems like the lock-in conditions have been relaxed (except for ARM).

    Things like BeOS might not have been feature complete, and I am certain that if Steve Jobs' Unix based NEXTSTEP was not around, Mac OS X would have been based on BeOS. But promising projects like this are indeed stifled out if the market is not fair enough to give them a chance in the first place.

    The point of this petition, and others like this, is to keep making noise. In all probability this petition will not see the light of day. But that should not stop us from standing up. In Quantum Mechanics, this is precisely equivalent to tunneling probability - when beta decay happens in a nucleus, the decaying particle should probabilistically not be allowed to escape the nucleus; but if millions of such events happen, the cumulative probability goes up, and the decay does happen. Likewise, if we keep making noise, someday something will change.
    Be formless, shapeless... like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup; you put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; if you put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot... Now water can flow, or it can crash... Be water my friend

  6. #26
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Why would this be open to non U.S. citizens? I could completely understand if there was some noted expert that the White House wanted to reach out to, and they were a citizen of some other country, but as far as our Executive Branch taking any kind of marching orders from other countries... geez... that's kind of a breach of national sovereignty.

    It's just like, I'm a U.S. citizen, and so I'm in no position whatsoever to tell the Queen of England what she should do, nor to lobby a MP to do a particular thing. I'm not a citizen of their country, and so I don't get any say in their internal affairs, nor should I.

  7. #27
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    Hardy Heron (Ubuntu Development)

    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    We've seen from past discussions that the definition of "monopoly" is pretty subjective. Technically, Microsoft does not hold a monopoly because there are other viable options available. Nobody can argue that they don't have the upper hand, though. The problem is that they had the upper hand way before Linux was a viable option. They've had the upper hand since MS-DOS. Foundations and mentalities were already set, and I think because of that, it's not by some evil design that Linux doesn't have a chance in the desktop realm.

    The funny thing is that tables are turned in the mobile realm. Now, the Linux-based Android has the upper hand in the mobile realm, and Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 don't have a chance because they're too late.

    Even though I don't care a lot about Linux taking over the world, I wouldn't mind it either. I hope you find a lot of people who care enough to sign the petition.
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

  8. #28
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterGaribaldi View Post
    Why would this be open to non U.S. citizens? I could completely understand if there was some noted expert that the White House wanted to reach out to, and they were a citizen of some other country, but as far as our Executive Branch taking any kind of marching orders from other countries... geez... that's kind of a breach of national sovereignty.

    It's just like, I'm a U.S. citizen, and so I'm in no position whatsoever to tell the Queen of England what she should do, nor to lobby a MP to do a particular thing. I'm not a citizen of their country, and so I don't get any say in their internal affairs, nor should I.
    I wouldnt worry, neither the Queen or MP's do anything at all anyways
    Backtrack - Giving machine guns to monkeys since 2006
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  9. #29
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post

    I hope you find a lot of people who care enough to sign the petition.
    well it has increased by 4 in 2 days so its well on its way
    Backtrack - Giving machine guns to monkeys since 2006
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  10. #30
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    Re: White House Linux Migration Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by haqking View Post
    I wouldnt worry, neither the Queen or MP's do anything at all anyways
    She keeps her YouTube channel up pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by haqking View Post
    well it has increased by 4 in 2 days so its well on its way
    Lol.
    Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You. - Dr. Seuss

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