Moderator troubles

[helpme]

Disclaimer: I asked Frodon for permission to post his pm and though he hasn't answered, nocturn gave me the go ahead, I assume after being in contact with frodon.

What happened:
Frodon was taking part in a thread in ubuntu cafe which discusses why some distros choose Gnome, though KDE seems to be more popular.

Frodon gave the following explanation:

A good explanation is GTK, for several years yet the linux developpers prefer use GTK libraries than QT and therefore most of the recent/active projects are design with GTK and that's why a default desktop environment with GNOME has been choosen by several big distros i think.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...38&postcount=6
I disagreed with this assessment:

I doubt that's the case, looking at the apps available for GTK and those available for QT.

To which Frodon replied:

But it is, i talked about recent/active projects, KDE has started before GNOME and was more used at the beginning therefore there are more apps for KDE, but look at all the recents projects, you will see by yourself (firefox for example).

I took the liberty to disagree again:

I was also talking about recent projects. Take a look at kde-apps.org, it's worth it.

And firefox does not really use gtk, so it's a rather bad example.

As a reply I did not get an other post, nor a nice pm, but the following:

About your post : http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...61&postcount=9

Please keep on topic, we are not there to say who is true, we don't care.
The original poster asked to users what in their opinion made some big distros choose GNOME instead of KDE despites that KDE is more used, so please don't troll his thread with some argumentations (good or not again we don't care) which are far from the topic which is not QT Vs GNOME.

I hope you understand what i mean.

I think the problems with frodon's behavior are clear to see:
First off, it really smacks of a moderator abusing his power simply because he can't take someone disagreeing with him. This surely shouldn't be acceptable and even if this wasn't the intention, moderators should take care that people don't even get the impression.

Second, accusing me of trolling, though all I did was answering his comments on the very topic of his comments, is simply insulting and I really feel he should apologize for this.

Finally, to make myself really clear (at least I try, I'm not a native speaker).
If he feels that GTK and QT should not be discussed, he shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
If he got the impression that the thread was being taken off topic (though it's in ubuntu cafe and I get the impression mods don't very often try to keep threads from going off topic there) he could have either said so in the thread, or he could have send me a nice, polite pm, telling me that he got the impression that we were taking the thread off topic and that we should simply agree to disagree, or something similar.

[kassetra]

Frodon gave the following explanation:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...38&postcount=6
I disagreed with this assessment:

I think the problems with frodon's behavior are clear to see:
First off, it really smacks of a moderator abusing his power simply because he can't take someone disagreeing with him. This surely shouldn't be acceptable and even if this wasn't the intention, moderators should take care that people don't even get the impression.

Your insistence that this is an abuse of power stems from the fact that you do not seem to understand he wasn't posting his opinion as fact, merely an opinion. When your reply escalated the situation, his reasons were "he saw that you would not be happy to let him have his own opinion" and recognized that the way to stop a war inside of the thread was to ask you to stop *arguing with his opinion* - *NOT* to stop disagreeing with him.

Just as you had assumed he was claiming to know fact when he was posting his opinion, you are assuming that he was asking you to stop because you disagreed with him.

frodon never claimed he was posting a fact, only an opinion. It is possible to have worded it better for you to understand that, however.

He was in the right asking you to stop aggravating the situation. If you wanted to disagree with his opinion, you should have simply said, I disagree with your opinion, and then posted your *own* opinion as to why, etc.

His PM, however, was not the right way to ask you to stop.

Second, accusing me of trolling, though all I did was answering his comments on the very topic of his comments, is simply insulting and I really feel he should apologize for this.

Naming you as a troll is not the correct thing to do. I have asked that he apologize for using the word in his PM to you. I have also asked that he more clearly state that it is his opinion he is posting when he posts his opinion, since you did not recognize that.

You were in the wrong to attack someone's opinion instead of simply stating that you disagree and why, and I will not ask him to apologize for trying to let you know that escalating the situation was inappropriate.

EDIT: for clarification here - what this means is that frodon was doing his duty, attempting to keep the thread from turning into an off-topic-flamewar regarding an opinion he posted. His PM however, was not properly constructed to show this clearly. I have shown frodon how his PM led to a very erroneous assumption, and how, in the future, he will need to word his PMs to avoid these kinds of situations.

Finally, to make myself really clear (at least I try, I'm not a native speaker).
If he feels that GTK and QT should not be discussed, he shouldn't have brought it up in the first place.
If he got the impression that the thread was being taken off topic (though it's in ubuntu cafe and I get the impression mods don't very often try to keep threads from going off topic there) he could have either said so in the thread, or he could have send me a nice, polite pm, telling me that he got the impression that we were taking the thread off topic and that we should simply agree to disagree, or something similar.

I have shown frodon some good examples for how to write his PMs and how to get his thoughts across more clearly. His PM was very clearly not what I would have liked to have seen. He agrees wholeheartedly and knows that it was not well-thought-out.

His PM wasn't trying to be about what should or should not be discussed, it was about attempting to get you to stop being confrontational in your disagreements regarding his opinion, which is the heart of the matter - preventing the thread from being hijacked into a flamewar regarding some tiny piece of a post someone made about their opinions regarding the answer to a question someone else posed.

I would ask that you apologize to him for arguing about his opinion - which everyone is free to have on this forum, and the next time you disagree with him regarding his opinion, simply state that you disagree with his opinion and post your own - then leave it at that.

Edit - for clarification - this means that disagreeing with someone is fine, everyone is free to disagree. All I was asking is for you to say, "hey, I didn't mean to say you're wrong personally, but that I disagreed with your statement." so as to completely end all miscommunications and mis-assumptions. I had also asked that he apologize for his PM and his replies.

The end result:
I've talked with frodon, and I've explained to him better methods of expressing himself and his duties. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but I hope you realize that neither of you two are guilt-free.

I would appreciate if you'd try to help in the future by being more careful with your wording as well.

[helpme]

Hi kassetra, thanks for taking the time to answer.

Your insistence that this is an abuse of power stems from the fact that you do not seem to understand he wasn't posting his opinion as fact, merely an opinion.

I'm sorry, but I specifically wrote that it smacks of an abuse of power and specifically refered to the possibility that this was not intended. I have a hard time seeing how this is insistence.
Also, I'm well aware that he was posting his opinion.

When your reply escalated the situation,

Excuse me? I simply voiced my disagreement, how is that escalating the situation?

he saw that you would not be happy to let him have his own opinion

I'm sorry, but could the forum staff stop insulting me? I'm more than happy with him or anyone else having his opinion, I simply disagreed with this opinion, or more acurately, with the factual statement he made.

and recognized that the way to stop a war inside of the thread was to ask you to stop *arguing with his opinion* - *NOT* to stop disagreeing with him.

I'm not a native speaker, so excuse the question, but could you elaborate on what you mean here?

Just as you had assumed he was claiming to know fact when he was posting his opinion, you are assuming that he was asking you to stop because you disagreed with him.

I'm sorry, but this gets weirder by the minute.
First off, he made a factual statement (More GTK programs are written than QT programs).
Second, I can only repeat that it's not what I assumed. As I said earlier, I even specifically said so in my initial post.

frodon never claimed he was posting a fact, only an opinion. It is possible to have worded it better for you to understand that, however.

Again, he made a factual statement and all I did was say that in my experience this statement was not true.

He was in the right asking you to stop aggravating the situation.

First off, I really take exception at being accused of aggravating the situation.
Second, as I specifically stated in my initial post, I would have had no problem with him approaching me in a polite way if he though our discussion was getting off topic.

If you wanted to disagree with his opinion, you should have simply said, I disagree with your opinion, and then posted your *own* opinion as to why, etc.

Again. he made a factual statement, I thought it was wrong and said so and said why. How should this be not permitted in a discussion forum?

You were in the wrong to attack someone's opinion instead of simply stating that you disagree and why, and I will not ask him to apologize for trying to let you know that escalating the situation was inappropriate.

I really have a hard time believing my eyes right now.
I did not attack him, I did not attack his opinion, I simply took the liberty to disagree.

His PM wasn't trying to be about what should or should not be discussed, it was about attempting to get you to stop being confrontational in your disagreements regarding his opinion, which is the heart of the matter.

Could you please show me specifically where I was confrontational? I simply disagreed.

I would ask that you apologize to him for arguing about his opinion - which everyone is free to have on this forum, and the next time you disagree with him regarding his opinion, simply state that you disagree with his opinion and post your own - then leave it at that.

I'm sorry, but if there is one thing I will not do it is apologizing for something that was not wrong. I wasn't being confrontational, I wasn't insulting, I didn't attack anyone, I won't apologize.

Further, all I did was voice my disagreement. If you'd kindly read the thread again, he was the one who didn't leave it with that, but felt compelled to state that his factual statement, which you insists was only an opinion, was indeed the truth.

[helpme]

When someone states an opinion, you can disagree with it. Telling them that they are *wrong* however, is confrontational, argumentative, and inappropriate for this forum.

If someone states a fact, then you can disagree and tell them it is wrong.

Let me quote again:

...for several years yet the linux developpers prefer use GTK libraries than QT and therefore most of the recent/active projects are design with GTK...

My reply:

I doubt that's the case...

You don't really want to tell we my answer here was "confrontational, argumentative, and inappropriate for this forum", do you?

Someone's opinion is never wrong - because it is their opinion, not fact.

I doubt opinions can't be wrong, however, that's simply semantics.

When you tell someone that their opinion is wrong, you are being confrontational toward them.

Again, see the quotes above. Do you really, honestly want to tell me I was being confrontational here?

If the other person responds to your assessment that their opinion is wrong, it is likely that they will attempt to explain to you why they believe the way that they do. If that is the course they take, they are not arguing the "fact" of it with you, but are instead attempting to show / justify to you their own opinion.

What?
You are really mixing up factual statements and opinions here.

If you were aware that he was posting his opinion, and then still proceeded to tell him it was wrong, then you are displaying inappropriate behavior and need to understand that it will not be accepted here.

This is really getting ridiculous.
Look again at the quotes above and tell me that you honestly believe that saying "I doubt that's the case" is inappropriate behavior and that I need to understand that it will not be accepted here.

If you mistakenly thought he was stating a fact, then you have simply misunderstood him and although your actions were not acceptable, they were due to a miscommunication.

Again, I find your suggestion that my actions were not acceptable to be ridiculous and insulting.
Further, no matter how you try to spin it, he made a factual statement (I can quote it again, if you want to) and I simply stated that "I doubt that's the case".

Saying, "I disagree with you, and this is my opinion" is stating a disagreement.
Saying, "You are wrong." is only appropriate when discussing facts, not opinions.

Again, we were discussing a factual statement, however hard you try to ignore this.
Further, saying you are wrong is just an other way to state ones disagreement. I'm not a native speaker, but even I am aware that saying that someone elses opinion is wrong is a normal figure of speech. And one neither considered inappropriate, nor inpolite.

If I tell you that my opinion is that blue is the least popular of all colors - you can disagree with me - that is acceptable, but telling me that my opinion is wrong escalates a situation with a confrontational reply.

If you tell me that blue is the least popular color you are making a factual statement. This is something completely different from merely voicing an opinion. So it's absolutely appropriate to say that the factual statement is wrong. In fact, it's the only logically possible answer, as disagreeing with facts is not possible.

What would be an opinion is if you stated that blue is the most beautiful color. I think it's plain to see that there is a clear difference between this (opinion) and a factual statement (This wall is blue).
However, it would of course still be totally unproblematic and not the least confrontational or inappropriate if I stated that your opinion was wrong, as red is in fact the most beautiful color.

[helpme]

Then I will not ask for frodon to apologize either. He was in the wrong to use the word troll; you were in the wrong to tell someone their opinion was wrong.

First off all, as I already pointed out, saying that someones opinion is wrong is simply disagreement.
Second, I reacted to a factual statement he made with "I doubt that's the case" and I don't feel inclined to apologize for this.
Third, if you think saying "I doubt that's the case" merits being insulted by a moderator, you really should think again.

If you had simply stated that you disagreed with his opinion, then you would have nothing to apologize for. But stating that :
does not say you are disagreeing with his opinion - you are saying that his opinion is wrong.

This is really getting outrageous.
No, saying that I doubt that's the case is simply saying that I doubt that his factuyl statement is true. This is neither confrontational, nor insulting, nor inappropriate, nor does it merit insults.

[ubuntu-geek]

This is really getting outrageous.

I would agree. After reading this post I don't it doesn't seem anything is going to get resolved where both parties are happy. So, before this escalates out of hand I'll make this as unresolved by *both parties and lock this thread.

The moderator in question has had the situation explained to him and will improved his PM language in the future and has been talked to about the situation in whole.

EDIT: *of the original situation.
-kassetra