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Thread: Future of Microsoft?

  1. #111
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    Quote Originally Posted by richbarna
    Aysiu and Azazel, maybe when this happens :-............

    .........it will finally be the Linux year ........
    .... For the UK and China ?
    On that note, I stumbled upon this at Linux Watch

    The Software Wars map
    http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS6586515742.html
    The idea of copyright did not exist in ancient times, when authors frequently copied other authors at length in works of non-fiction. This practice was useful, and is the only way many authors' works have survived even in part. -- Richard Stallman

  2. #112
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    Quote Originally Posted by richbarna
    Aysiu and Azazel, maybe when this happens :-............

    .........it will finally be the Linux year ........
    .... For the UK and China ?
    America will be the last to adopt Linux on the desktop, for sure. I have been keeping abreast of Microsoft's fallout with China, actually. I also know about South Korea's "Linux city" and the $100 laptop project.

    Things are happening. They are. I just don't see it happening overnight.

    If China forces people to use Linux, though, the Linux desktop marketshare will shoot up, just by virtue of China being 1/5 of the world's population!

  3. #113
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    Yeah, they do. Which amounts to 'Hey use windows server'. Thanks for playing.
    No, it amounts to, yes we know how popular Linux is becoming, we know that the trend is to start using Linux, but please give us a chance. You know this so stop arguing the point its obvious that they recognize linux as a competitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges

    Yeah, I did neglect to mention that. I guess because they are two and three year old ports of games available on other platforms? That's like someone making a casual comment "compared to PSP and Nintendo DS, the Nokia N-Gage has no games" and then you pointing out the 14 or so ports that it does have, as if that person literally meant "it has zero games" and not "it is a complete joke and no one cares about it".
    Ah, but here is a direct quote of what you originally said

    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    It has no games to speak of, the only way to find any is to use terrible windows emulation to run the 5% of the games that you can get working, at 5% the speed they would run under windows.
    I won't even aruge that point anymore it's a dead issue. All you will say is that I should have been smart enough to read through to what you meant and that you were comparing the two and I should have figured it out. But this is a forum you must say what you mean and mean what you say, and for the record when UT2007 comes out it too will most likely support Linux.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    Oh please, get over yourself. The only thing that you let "get to you" was me making a criticism of Linux. Too bad in your anger you apparently didn't bother to read, like so many other users here, since you and others continue to make arguments against things you've imagined. Nice apology though. If it weren't so obviously fake and generally corny, someone might have taken it as something other than a cheap attempt at taking the moral high ground.
    Ah, except it was sincere, and I was attempting to take this discussion to a more mature level, you just proved that you're here to argue, were you more mature you would have simply taken the moral high ground yourself and it would have made you look slighly more credible, obviously you didn't do that, fine by me. I will not sink to your level again. I was not angrey I was annoyed, you don't know me, stop telling me what I thought. The truth is, had you been more mature and not so insulting I would have thought better of your argument and at least made a better attempt to see it from your point of view, that is not the case. Finally don't ever attempt to make me sound like I am a lieing scoundrel who attempts to fake apologies just to look good, I truly should not have sunk to your level and for that I apologize. You need to learn to understand something, some people are sincere, that does not make them fake or corny because you may perhaps lack that sincerity, does not mean that everyone else does. In any case the point of this (thread) is not my persoanlity or yours, it is the future of microsoft so let us stick to that and not things like how intelligent someone may or may not be.


    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    Then what is this argument? Because "Linux is not as good as it could be" is pretty much what I said, and so is "it most certainly does not suck" when I repeatedly pointed out that I use it (I pointed it out over and over and over and over as a matter of fact, but it disproved half the posts against me so I guess it was willfully ignored). The multimedia Linux does not "lack", the multimedia things are just not there by default, and that hurts it. Games, however, are completely absent (I know there are two or three and a few crappy windows emulators that can barely run Deus Ex, don't bother pointing them out, I and the rest of the gaming community don't care), and until Linux picks up large market share, they will continue to be. And as long as they are absent, it will be incredibly difficult for Linux to pick up large market share.
    I agree with most of that, but could you point out what exactly it disproves? I got the impression that you did not like Linux at first because you continually pointed out the negatives in Linux and postives in Windows, now that you have clarified this it makes your argument much more understandable, as it turns out there is not much of an argument as to "what is" but more of a disgreement as to the extent that "it is". Fill "it" in with whatever the issue being being discussed is.


    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    I don't believe it's inferior. As a matter of fact, I've said several times that it's a better OS than windows and that I use it almost exclusively, more than most of the people on this board can say. I use it so much because Ubuntu is a great OS and I just like running it. It's fast, it's virus and ad-ware free (thanks to it's low market share, not any inherent security features, it'd be as bad as windows if it were as big a target), it's got the software that I want, it looks nice, it's just a really nice product. To be honest, Ubuntu is so good that depending on the cost I would even pay for it, and it's given out for free. I love Ubuntu, I don't think it's inferior as an operating system at all, certainly not to Windows, and it can go toe to toe with MacOS. However, I'm also not so blindly in love with it that I think it's going to kill Microsoft while lacking a lot of the basic things that people want out of their computers. Synaptic is great, the little "add software" deal under the applications menu is great.....but having pretty much every piece of software in the world run on your PC, and being able to just do a google search and click on the first link for the software you need, is a whole lot better, and a lot of casual users are going to miss that. How many people are actually going to prefer Gimp over Photoshop? From a few polls I've seen, even the hardcore linux community doesn't prefer Gimp over photoshop. How many people are actually going to prefer Anjunta or MonoDevelop to their .NET suite? Not any that I've seen. And it goes on and on and on from there. From my perspective, Linux by and large has (better) alternatives to (almost) anything you can find on Windows. But from the perspective of the average user, the user you're going to need behind you for the sort of stuff being talked about in this thread like removing windows from it's dominant position or getting universal driver support, from their perspective Linux is difficult to find software for, it doesn't have the software they want 9 times out of 10, and it doesn't work with the hardware they have more often than windows as well (a quickly disappearing problem, I'm well aware of that). That's why I said what I said, which, without it right in front of me, I believe in context was something along the lines of "Linux sucks for the average user". And it most certainly does.
    I think other have already answered this part of your post and there is little I have to add except this. How many people actually use the .NET suite? I have not met too many, besides the .NET suite is very handicapped in terms of allowing the user to program for multiply platforms. That said for what it is ment to do, it is a very good piece of software. IMO more people use photoshop then the .NET suite but I doubt that the "average" users does. I don't think Linux will gain amazing market share in the US any time soon, where Linux will really take off is in foreign Countries, (I think someone else already pointed out Bill Gate's trip to Brazil. ) Microsoft really began to take off (from my understanding) with Windows 95. By 98 they had essentially dominated the PC OS market within the United States. That gives them about 3 years. IF Linux can do the same with the developing countries (which seems to be what is happining) then some time in the near future Linux will develop a formidable Marketshare outside the US (and probably Europe). Which given the trend towards globalization will lead hardware companies and software developers to include Linux support for their products in order to grab a bigger share of the world's economy. In areas where Windows is dominante i would hope that the progression would be slower because people will need to learn to forget the sloppy pracitises the Windows has fostered in them, where as in other countries the people will be taught good computing practise from the begining.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    I see all kinds of flaws in Windows. I spend more time removing infections/annoying spy and ad-ware than I do playing around/working, "service packs" only serve to break things that I have working, things never seem to uninstall when I tell them to, or for that matter, do anything I tell them to after a few months of operation, etc. That's why I switched to Ubuntu save for Civilization IV, because Ubuntu is far superior. As for starting a distro, I wouldn't mind that at all really, though I'd much prefer to just whine about things until they get changed, since that saves me from needing to learn how to program things in something other than visual basic and visual C#. And "fixing things", I can't. There isn't anything I can do really to make publishers start putting games out for Linux, to make OEMs start putting out a few Linux machines, to make drivers magically appear, and I know that there's nothing the Ubuntu team (for the most part) can do either. But that doesn't change the fact that those problems are still there, and are still going to impede progress and stop Linux from ever hurting Microsoft.
    Infact many people have been sucessful in finding work arounds to uncooperative hardware vendors. For example the Ndiswrapper devs. and the people who are working on the rtx00 drivers for the ratlink wireless cards. The gaming issue is another one entirely and one that should be resolved in time, I discussed that issue earlier.


    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    First of all, Linux is only a tougher OS for the average user, whom judging from my experience doing tech support for a few hundred people, are complete morons who will never open a help program or read a manual or use google or a forum or do anything to make themselves less of a high blood pressure causing moron. There's more precise typing and less random clicking around (which needs to change, not replace the typing because I like cutting and pasting into a terminal, but there needs to be a random clicking option to accomplish tasks as well), so yeah, it's a more difficult OS for the average user. For someone who knows they can cut and paste into a terminal and where to find the stuff they need to cut and paste, or for someone fresh off of windows/a mac and willing to learn, it's actually pretty easy. Your other points, yeah, you could do that to IE6, but your page and all the others that are like it would be less than 1%. Meanwhile, at least 10-15% of the pages I see on a weekly basis have some sort of problem with Firefox, whether it's text running off the page, images stretching too far, things not getting rendered, weird errors, etc. It's not quite the same thing. And neither is comparing OGG and MP3 support. One is an obscure format that support for only really matters to linux zealots who think of open source as some sort of philosophy, a format that has hardly any support from the music industry (from what I've seen, I don't go around checking file formats on every song released), a format that most people have never even heard of and couldn't care less if they have support for it, and the other is the recognized "standard" of music formats. Support for the one is a lot less important than support for the other. One is so important that it's just assumed to be there by most people, and the other is so unimportant that most people don't even know it exists, and couldn't care less that it does. As for viewing file systems....what? Does anyone really care about viewing a file system outside of the one your computer is using (ie, being able to view your files)? Do you honestly give a crap about that? I can't imagine that anyone does
    Obviously SOMEONE does otherwise people would not have attempted to make a tool that alows ext2/3 to be viewable from inside Windows, you may have meant by that statment that the average user does not care about it, and in that respect your probably right. (Though we could be wrong) On the issue of your webpages not displaying correctly, I have seen ONE website that did that with me, so i agree it exsists, however 10%-15%??????!!!! I think that is a little high, could you please point us to at least, I dunno ten? Ten really useful websites that are not viewable via a Linux native browser. Many have already answered the music format issue, I'll just add that perhaps we can include a link in Ubuntu that directs people to the proper locations. Have you used Yast? It's a tool in SUSE that IMHO is more useful then the Control Panel in Windows. The point n click soultions that you talk about are becoming available, however I do belive that they should be implmented with caution. Linux is an entirely diffrent Operating System, I belive people will need to learn to use Linux WITH the command line,(hence I favor slower growth in the US and Europe) as we all already know the problems with executables. Just a point that I would like to make here, not neccessarly in context of this issue, many of the suggestions that are made for "beating" Windows tend to want Linux to do things like Windows, this is a bad idea, Linux is NOT Windows you will have to LEARN a little at the beggining. This will become less of a problem as the number of people who are born with a computer in their house increases.(again this is not necessarly directed at you Shodges).

    Edit: One more thing about mp3, Linspire has many proprietary format, has that really helpped their market share? No. Also to the issue of whether or not Windows is paying attention to Linux,the have a "Linux Lab", and they sued Linspre when it was Lindows. So yea they are keeping an eye on Linux. Does this imply that they are scared, no not by itself, but their are other indications they are at least wary of the OS that is slowly moving in on their territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    I will admit that I jumped to insults right off the bat, but that's because I've seen these arguments before and I've seen the kind of reaction this community has for ANYTHING critical you say about Linux. They're incredibly nice when you ask for help usually, but the second you point out something that should obviously be there and is not, suddenly you're a troll and the antichrist of open source. I can recall at one point being called a "troll" because when I was first beginning to use Linux I said I'd prefer to double click and go through an install wizard when installing things that aren't there in synaptic rather than jumping through all these terminal hoops. It's amazing that these people talk about the improvements that dapper made (and it did, I'm not saying otherwise) even though it was the follow up to an apparently perfect operating system sent from the heavens.
    Hmm, well in this case it may not have served you well to lose patients as I otherwise would have been more symapthetic to what you have said, (even though I would have still disagreed) In the end it seems that is where we are heading as Dapper now has gDebi (is that what it is called) and that is now what you do essentially.


    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    Anything can be used to make a political statement of some sort, that doesn't mean that it's about something. Linux is software. It's sole purpose/meaning behind it's existence is to make computer use "cooler" for lack of a better word. I can drink water in protest of every company that makes a non natural beverage of any kind anywhere on the earth. That doesn't mean that my local city water service is involved in some conspiracy against Pepsi and Coke, or that water itself is "about" anything. At best, one could say that Linux is "about" open source, which is in turn "about" releasing code so that you can get free labor from more people to do some of the work rather than needing to use paid labor supplied by less people to do all of the work.
    And I am not arguing about that. I agree. However I don't see why it should matter to you when someone does apoint a phiosphy behind something and pushs it further, after all the "father of GNU" Richard Stallman is "an activist".


    Quote Originally Posted by SHodges
    I don't view myself as some weird "e-messiah" here to bless everyone with the truth and bring them over to myside over night, I don't really care that I can't change everyone's mind, I don't even aim to. I post when I'm bored or when I need tech support for Ubuntu, I couldn't care less who's convinced of what
    Ah, well thanx for clariflying that I was confused my self.
    Last edited by ihavenoname; June 8th, 2006 at 05:23 AM.

  4. #114
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    Quote Originally Posted by azazel-

    ...and are there "restore disks" for Linux? I've not seen any. Yet another negative for Linux on the desktop. Keep diggin' that hole.
    There are scripts for installers such as the ones anaconda, and autoyast. The fact is that there are (to the best of my knowledge) not computers that come from the manufacturer (Dell,HP,Gateway..etc) that already have Linux on them, so why in the world would linux have a restore disk? If your talking about a Linux installer that does install everything by itself, then theres is the blag install, u just need to type blagblagblag and it install the most common installation. When Linux comes pre-loaded on computers then a restore disk would be very simple to make, the tools are in place all that would be needed is for the installer to by directed to use the autoscript. (autoyast w/e) and those scripts to be properly formated.

  5. #115
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu
    America will be the last to adopt Linux on the desktop, for sure. I have been keeping abreast of Microsoft's fallout with China, actually. I also know about South Korea's "Linux city" and the $100 laptop project.

    Things are happening. They are. I just don't see it happening overnight.

    If China forces people to use Linux, though, the Linux desktop marketshare will shoot up, just by virtue of China being 1/5 of the world's population!
    true

  6. #116

    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu
    I agree that 3 years is overly optimistic, but your logic's a bit flawed. Just because the boy cries wolf every day, it doesn't stop the wolf from actually coming next week!

    Why don't you give these "normal" people a Ubuntu-preloaded laptop and a copy of Windows XP and see how well they do with that?

    Your huge rant about "normal people" this and "normal people" that amounts to one thing and one thing only: normal people don't install operating systems. They use what was on there when they bought the computer.

    and
    I've installed XP and 2000 from scratch myself, and it sucks worse than any Linux install I've done.
    I just have to say how true that is. Windows xp and 2000 do have some built in drivers, but not all. What happens when you need a driver? You donwload it. Kind of hard to do when Windows doesn't intall the driver for your Nic So you run the driver install CD that came with your Motherboard, and it complains about needing Direct X 9 because it's one of those all in one installers, and offers to download it for you!!! Duh, no net Good luck finding the driver on the disc because the directories all labled 0,1,2,3... What about your built in video card? Is it a sis, trident, Via, intel? The device manager in windows gives 0 details about that. Your sound card also, let's say you have a built in VIA sound card, head over to the manufactures website to get the driver, there are 3-5 different ones listed, with no way to dectect which one you have installed without figuring out the model # of your motherboard and getting the pdf for it. You have no clue how many FCC reference checks I've done to figure what kind of modem was install, and MAC lookups for NIC cards.

    And then the updates, OMG!!!!! windowsupdate.com, wait... checking system.....wait some more..... you must install these 3 components to use windows update. Restart.... update.... restart.... update.. (get the picture ). Then all of the software you need or want. Search all over the net for it, winamp.com, divx.com, download.com, don't forget your antivirus and spyblocker too.

    It's a royal pain in the *** to install Windows. Takes me on average 3.5-4 hours to do a Windows install from scratch. It takes 1-1.5 hours to Ubuntu to the way I want it, and only 2 restarts not 12.
    Last edited by disturbed1; June 8th, 2006 at 05:18 AM.
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  7. #117
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    i bravely foretell the future, microsoft will continue to flourish.

    why?

    1. People will continue to use pirated Windows and never be introduced to Linux.
    2. There are a lot of quality FREE software for Windows than Linux.
    3. Major hardware manufacturers continue to see the world through Windows.
    4. Every running pirated Windows is a potential Microsoft customer.
    5. Computer educaiton (at least in our side of the world) uses Windows and teaches Visual Basic.
    6. Quality Linux-based apps are being ported to Windows (i know, it's supposed to familiarize them with software available in Linux but that's not how the average user thinks).
    7. Linux is understood only by geeks, techies, and profesionals.

    The only problem of mr. gates is how to stop piracy and i have one good suggestion how to do it... HE SHOULD PROMOTE LINUX!

    peace!



  8. #118
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    eventually they will give it away if it means that more people get into their drm or patented formats

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    Talking Re: Future of Microsoft?

    After reading all the threads, I came to one conclosion MS is not going anywere soon( there here to stay for the longterm.), The way I see it, ubuntu and other linux distro's are getting easer and easer to use and more apeling.The way I also see the world economy going, more and more people have less and less money. So if 1+1=2 more people will start using linux and that includes the so called therd world countries. And when that starts to happen, linux will get stronger and stonger as an OS, it will be like a snow ball affect.

    But MS will strike back with stronger DRM, and incompetible wmv & wma, and also muscle hardware companies to work mustly with MS products etc,etc.
    I think we can wait to see what comes out of countries like china.But also here in europe I see alot of companies moving to open souce because there not willing to give so mutch money out for there OS's,It read in one of the posts that MS has a lot of money, that may be true but alot of companies are moving slowly to open souce and I take the example of a city here in holland were the meyar switch form MS to open souce and that redouced the costs of the city. So yes it's all about the money and ubuntu is free and getting stronger every day.
    And that was my 2cents worth. =D> Ubuntu to the people.
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  10. #120
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    Re: Future of Microsoft?

    I think that ms's future will be a drunken and down-on-his-luck Steve Balmer on a beach somewhere in South America or the far east, trying to convince bored american tourists that he used to be important.
    The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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