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Thread: Jack won't start

  1. #21
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Piovesan - You and I are in broad agreement.

    I've come back to using Ubuntu after a period of almost a year using Windows. I find that while things are better than they were, they haven't improved as much as I'd hoped.

    Once I understood the changes, Jack and Firewire were easier to set up (for me). For many users, Jack is still a headache, as a cursory glance through this forum will show. Another glance will show that criticism of Jack is unacceptable for some reason.
    Ardour, which is the program I like to use, doesn't do midi yet. Nor does it use multiple processor cores. These things are coming but aren't here yet.
    I still can't see how to advance my midi timing so that audio from external sources, triggered by midi from QTractor, will be in time with other audio when recorded into Ardour.
    I'm forced to use a2jmidi to use Qtractor's midi with Jack while using my Firewire interface. There is a need for more programs to use Jack Midi for us Firewire users, given that Jack is so pivotal to Linux audio.
    As someone who tries to use Ubuntu using only software from the repositories as much as possible (Ubuntu 10.10), I've lost my realtime kernel. Some Linux users like to point to the realtime kernel as a great way to achieve low latency and as something that is unique to Linux and gives Linux users an advantage for manipulating audio and midi. If this is true, it should be practically the first inclusion in a Studio distro.
    Jack and Pulseaudio still aren't the best of friends.

    None of these things has stopped me using Ubuntu so far and I intend to continue using it.

    Incidentally, my main reason for sticking to software from the repositories as far as possible, is so that when I'm talking to others about using Ubuntu, I can show them how it works without resorting to the terminal too much. Like it or not, lots of Windows and Mac users don't or won't use a terminal. In fact, I'm not very fond of it myself . I've found that showing them a working, dual-booting Ubuntu system that echoes their current experiences while allowing them to fallback to their original OS, is more likely to encourage them to try Linux than showing them how to use the terminal.

    Saying to them:
    Stuff like adding lines to /etc/sysctl.conf, adding options to /etc/fstab, not shipping packages like apt-xapian-index, adding udev rules for hardware timers, adding/removing init.d scripts, maintaining real-time kernel packages etc.
    leaves them feeling browbeaten and unlikely to join the Linux ranks.

    I happily concede to Autostatic's superior knowledge of Linux, the processes and people involved in producing a distro of any flavour. In fact, I'm happy to concede that to everyone on this forum

    I'm still entitled to express my opinions.

    Arbitrarily dividing users into pro and hobbyist beforehand is pointless. People and their needs come in all shapes and sizes. Talking down to people using jargon is just about the quickest way to lose friends and influence people.

    Of course, there might well be political issues as well. As far as I can tell, at it's simplest, most of this revolves around who is setting the agenda for the various distros. Vested interests operate in similar ways, whatever the field. None of it should be used to justify perceived under-performance of a distro. Outside of those directly or closely involved, I don't suppose too many people give a damn.

    Anyway, just giving my opinion as someone coming back to Ubuntu with a fresh pair of eyes
    Last edited by howefield; December 23rd, 2015 at 11:41 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Dawiba, I think everyone on this forum is already aware of the faults you mentioned, and areas for improvement within Linux audio. Unfortunately, mentioning these issues does not help them improve.

    I find that while things are better than they were, they haven't improved as much as I'd hoped.
    Open source does not improve unless people like you and me actively help out, which you can do by donating your time, money or skills. Good software costs time and money, not for the user, but for the developer. If you want improvements you will have to get involved.
    Ubuntu is designed with user friendliness and aims for a higher market share, but the developers of Linux audio software may not share this principle. In practice they just write the software they like and if others want to join in, they are free to do so.
    Another glance will show that criticism of Jack is unacceptable for some reason... I'm still entitled to express my opinions.
    There is no need to feel so defensive about what you post, AFAIK, no-one is censoring your opinions and no-one has requested you stop posting.

    Saying to them:
    Quote:snip

    leaves them feeling browbeaten and unlikely to join the Linux ranks.
    Talking down to people using jargon is just about the quickest way to lose friends and influence people.
    I don't understand the hostility here, Autostatic is possibly the friendliest poster on this forum and if you want these tips further explained I'm sure he would do so. In addition he was giving you a specific answer to a specific question you asked, and not quoting jargon just to prove he knows more than you.
    I still can't see how to advance my midi timing so that audio from external sources, triggered by midi from QTractor, will be in time with other audio when recorded into Ardour.
    Why not use Qtractor for MIDI and audio? Then timing will not be an issue.

  3. #23
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    Re: Jack won't start

    These are my remarks:

    Quote Originally Posted by dawiba View Post
    Jack is still a headache, as a cursory glance through this forum will show. Another glance will show that criticism of Jack is unacceptable for some reason.
    I don't think that the Jack headache is exclusive to Ubuntu. Jack is pivotal to Linux audio as you mentioned, and support for Jack is widely marketed by most audio-oriented distros. It is 3rd party software and dealing with 3rd party software is never as straightforward as people tend to think. Slower communication (they are different teams, managed differently), a fix for a given distro not being prioritized as it should be (as they support many distros with competing release dates, besides running their own roadmap), the issues of addressing problems in the distro itself instead of fixing them at their origin (which is always better and less prone to side effects, despite being the most difficult way). It is very different from supporting a single system. This is how I see it as a developer.

    Same thing to Ardour, Jack Midi, and compatibility to Pulseaudio. They are not Ubuntu or Ubuntu Studio exclusive. I think these limitations are expected to come to any Linux distro adopting them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dawiba View Post
    Saying to them (...) leaves them feeling browbeaten and unlikely to join the Linux ranks.
    No matter how user-friendly Ubuntu is, it still cannot stop being Linux. It aims to be simple for everyone, yet in some cases it cannot afford not suffering from the "competing support demands" syndrome. In the cause of audio production, I understand it is a consequence of having to integrate many subsystems instead of using a monolithic solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by dawiba View Post
    Of course, there might well be political issues as well. As far as I can tell, at it's simplest, most of this revolves around who is setting the agenda for the various distros. Vested interests operate in similar ways, whatever the field. None of it should be used to justify perceived under-performance of a distro.
    As you can see, there are competing interests (not even political -- I would say logistical) that I believe to justify it.
    Last edited by piovezan; February 6th, 2011 at 03:53 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Hi cchhrriiss121212

    Quote Originally Posted by cchhrriiss121212
    I think everyone on this forum is already aware of the faults you mentioned, and areas for improvement within Linux audio. Unfortunately, mentioning these issues does not help them improve.
    Unfortunately, not talking about them doesn't help either

    Quote Originally Posted by cchhrriiss121212
    Open source does not improve unless people like you and me actively help out, which you can do by donating your time, money or skills.
    I know this. I have done so and will continue to do so

    Quote Originally Posted by cchhrriiss121212
    AFAIK, no-one is censoring your opinions and no-one has requested you stop posting.
    I know this also. You didn't need to explain it, but thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by cchhrriiss121212
    I don't understand the hostility here, Autostatic is possibly the friendliest poster on this forum
    Perhaps you're reading my replies as over-sensitive (I'm not usually). I wasn't being hostile (honest, guv), but I was sticking to my guns. I'm not interested in denting anyone's popularity or upsetting anyone. I've already said I'm not looking to argue. I am up for a discussion though .

    Thanks for the advice about using QTractor for audio and midi. I have tried but the timing issue still exists. It exists because midi has to leave my computer, be converted to audio which then has to return to my computer. The delay is very slight and is easily fixed by manually aligning the recorded audio. I'd still like a way to advance my midi timing though

    Please note, lots of smileys
    Last edited by howefield; December 23rd, 2015 at 11:41 AM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by piovezan
    Is the Jack headache exclusive to Ubuntu? I'm afraid not.
    Agreed. I never claimed otherwise. I do use Ubuntu though

    In summary for the rest of your post, in broad terms I pretty much agree. I don't think this is Ubuntu Studio specific.
    Last edited by howefield; December 23rd, 2015 at 11:42 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Scrappy user digivolves to Smiley guy. Good!

    So now that you get the big picture, let's finish our OT discussion. My soundcard is aching to talk Duplex to Jack. If someone sees technical restrictions to make a Linux distro work for both pro and hobbyist users, I'd be glad to hear them. The challenge posed by supporting multiple OS's is well clear, however I'd like to come to a conclusion whether improving a distro to suit the different latency demands from pro and hobbyist users would be technically feasible or not. Saying "Distro X or Y doesn't do the low latency stuff well, but then again which audio distro does?" is just not enough for me.

    Regarding the Jack issue, I have improved my Quickscan reports; the latest is quite smooth now. I have even dropped overclocking in my machine so that the only complaint coming from the report is about kernel optimizations (no real-time capabilities and no 1000hz clock), everything else is status green now.

    Yet Jack won't run in Duplex or Capture Only mode

    Code:
    == GUI-enabled checks ==
    Checking if you are root... no - good
    Checking filesystem 'noatime' parameter... 2.6.35 kernel - good
    (relatime is default since 2.6.30)
    Checking CPU Governors... CPU 0: 'performance' CPU 1: 'performance'  - good
    Checking swappiness... 10 - good
    Checking for resource-intensive background processes... none found - good
    Checking checking sysctl inotify max_user_watches... >= 524288 - good
    Checking access to the high precision event timer... readable - good
    Checking access to the real-time clock... readable - good
    Checking whether you're in the 'audio' group... yes - good
    Checking for multiple 'audio' groups... no - good
    yes - good.
    Checking the ability to prioritize processes with chrt... yes - good
    == Other checks ==
    Finding current kernel config... found /boot/config-2.6.35-25-generic
    Checking for Ingo Molnar's Real-Time Preemption... not found.
    ** Kernel without real-time capabilities found
       For more information, see http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration#installing_a_real-time_kernel
    Checking for high-resolution timers... found - good.
    Checking for 1000hz clock... not found.
    ** Try setting your clock to 1000hz
       For more information, see:
       * http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration#installing_a_real-time_kernel
       * http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/wiki/frequently_asked_questions#what_does_system_timer_resolution_is_too_low_mean
    Checking for High Resolution Timers... found - good.
    Checking filesystem types... ok.
    not found.
    ** Warning: no tmpfs partition mounted on /tmp
       For more information, see:
       - http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration#tmpfs
       - http://lowlatency.linuxaudio.org

  7. #27
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Hi,

    What audio card are you using? Is it an onboard? What are the terminal outputs of arecord -l and aplay -l?

    Have you tried with jackd1 instead of jackd2? (sudo apt-get install jackd1)

    I second Autostatic that you should give tango studio a try. It is a wonderful distro, based on and fully compatible with ubuntu/ubuntustudio 10.04, but better suited for audio work, imho.

    EDIT: The terminal is fine. It is not intuitive but it gives you flexibility and it is faster for some purposes. For example (a biased example because vlc is a three-letter word and it is in the repos ) it is faster to type sudo apt-get install vlc, than open the sotware center, search vlc and click to install it. And both methods are way faster than most windows users would do: open a web browser and so on.

    Another example, for helping through the forums, the info in plain text is more accurate and extensive than what you can see in screenshots, and it is a matter of copy-paste text.

    Cheers, Pablo
    Last edited by Pablo_F; February 6th, 2011 at 10:27 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Jack won't start

    The terminal is fine. I prefer not to use it. Speed is not an issue for users used to the terminal. It takes me ages to do anything in the terminal

    I'm not bothered how quickly I download or install a program. I concede that for some, this will be important. I try to encourage users to Linux by showing them just how much they can actually do without opening a terminal window. They seem to like that
    Last edited by howefield; December 23rd, 2015 at 11:42 AM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo_F View Post
    What audio card are you using? Is it an onboard? What are the terminal outputs of arecord -l and aplay -l?
    Yes, it is an onboard card. 'HDA Intel' according to the terminal. The mobo spec mentions an ICH7 chipset, which is supported by ALSA/Jack through the snd-hda-intel driver, despite also mentioning an 8-channel VIA VT1708B HDA Codec (which may be trouble, but it seems to be already supported as well).

    Code:
    piovezan@ubuntu:~$ arecord -l
    **** Lista de Dispositivos CAPTURE Hardware ****
    placa 0: Intel [HDA Intel], dispositivo 0: VT1708B Analog [VT1708B Analog]
      Dispositivo secundário: 2/2
      Dispositivo secundário #0: subdevice #0
      Dispositivo secundário #1: subdevice #1
    piovezan@ubuntu:~$ aplay -l
    **** Lista de Dispositivos PLAYBACK Hardware ****
    placa 0: Intel [HDA Intel], dispositivo 0: VT1708B Analog [VT1708B Analog]
      Dispositivo secundário: 2/2
      Dispositivo secundário #0: subdevice #0
      Dispositivo secundário #1: subdevice #1
    placa 0: Intel [HDA Intel], dispositivo 1: VT1708B Digital [VT1708B Digital]
      Dispositivo secundário: 1/1
      Dispositivo secundário #0: subdevice #0
    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo_F View Post
    Have you tried with jackd1 instead of jackd2? (sudo apt-get install jackd1)
    Yes I have. And just tried once more via terminal. No issues during installation apparently, yet same results as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo_F View Post
    I second Autostatic that you should give tango studio a try. It is a wonderful distro, based on and fully compatible with ubuntu/ubuntustudio 10.04, but better suited for audio work, imho.
    Yes it's plan B. I'll be sure to try it and I really appreciate the recommendation.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by piovezan; February 7th, 2011 at 01:20 AM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Jack won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by dawiba View Post
    Some might. Some might not. That wasn't the point of my question. Different people have different gear. This is largely irrelevant. What I consider a hobbyist and a professional in this context is totally irrelevant. You haven't described how their needs are different, specifically, in the context of this thread. In this context, all users need their computer to accept audio and/or midi signals, process this and then produce a finished product to their satisfaction. All in a way that they understand and are comfortable using and which makes them productive. How many mics someone has is irrelelvant to this.
    Hello dawiba. True. I should have phrased it differently. What I wanted to say is that for me the difference between a hobbyist and a pro user is that a pro user is willing to invest time, money and effort into getting everything set up so he can create the things he wants. Gear can be one of those investments. But it could also relate to investing time and energy to get to know the platform you're using and the software that is available for that platform.

    Quote Originally Posted by dawiba View Post
    For the record, I wasn't looking to start an argument.
    Me neither. It was not my intention to raise an argument. I do understand though my previous post could be interpreted as such so therefor I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by dawiba View Post
    It is perfectly possible to produce a single working environment that will meet the needs of all users wishing to record and process audio/midi in their computers, whether they are hobbyists or professionals.
    This is imho not possible. A hobbyist probably prefers a system that works right away and that might clash with the demands from pro users.

    Quote Originally Posted by dawiba View Post
    Undoubtedly, there are developers working towards this end right now, even as I type. Good for them.
    Unfortunately they're not. Ubuntu Studio has no or very few developers, they rely on the developers from the MOTU team. And they're focusing on things that I find of lesser importance for a pro user, like getting NetworkManager to behave well in a real-time low latency environment. Afaik there are very few Linux audio pro users that use this tool. They either disable it right away and use something else or use a completely different Desktop Environment that doesn't use NetworkManager as a WiFi networks manager.

    Best,

    Jeremy

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