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Thread: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

  1. #11
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    Sigh, change for change's sake. I go back in computing a bit longer, so from the late 70s on, a Kilobyte (kB) was 1024 Bytes, a Megabyte (MB) was 1024 kb or 1024*1024 bytes (earlier too, but that I don't remember).

    Some marketing guy at a hard drive manufacturer came up with the "1000 byte = 1 kB" cr*p - and it stuck, to the point that we got nonsense constructions like Mibibyte (sp?) or "MiB" and some computer-analphabets "made it the norm".

    Fortunately, most filesystems ignored this rubbish and stayed with the base2 byte count, not even Microsoft messed it up.

    Now Ubuntu does it - of course without telling anybody and of course, causing a lot of FUD in the process. So my question now: how the f**k can I reconfigure Lucid to behave sanely (1 MB = 1024B)?

  2. #12
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    Well, I for one am happy to read this thread. It will save me some irritation.

    Thanks kansasnoob.
    Dell 480 XPS 3G ram Quad Core 2.40GHz, Radeon HD 2400 PRO, Audigy1, 3x320G HDD, 320G External, Debian Testing for use, Debian Squeeze for secure use, Debian Sid for FUN

  3. #13
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    @recluce: Well, to revert back those changes you would have to recompile some libraries (I know that glib has been patched but it's most likely not the only library).

  4. #14
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    Quote Originally Posted by kklimonda View Post
    @recluce: Well, to revert back those changes you would have to recompile some libraries (I know that glib has been patched but it's most likely not the only library).
    That is a lot of work, if you don't know which libraries are broken, ahem, sorry, have been patched. Thank you for the information. While I don't have much hope, maybe somebody will come up with a workable solution.

    I am considering to switch to another distro - is Debian messing around with file size calculation as well?

  5. #15
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    @Recluce, you asked, "is Debian messing around with file size calculation as well?"

    ATM Squeeze still uses the old (IMHO proper) behavior. Now, before I get jumped on, when I say "proper" I've already explained that to non-techies like me (and most of us) I buy discs and they say 700MB (not MiB) so when both Nautilus and Brasero tell me an image is over 700MB I'd think "oh crap" time to bust out a DVD or USB stick.

    But I have installed presently Hardy, Jaunty, Karmic, Lucid, Fedora12, Mint7, WinXP, and Squeeze - of those only Lucid has this "odd" behavior.

  6. #16
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    @recluce: No, from what I can tell debian hasn't yet made a decision to either go with the change or don't. I'm pretty sure that even if they decide to follow us it won't happen before squeeze release. The change is indeed somewhat controversial but it's not a "change for the sake of change" - there are real problems that developers try to fix (I think one of better examples of the broken behaviour is this screenshot: http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.or....cgi?id=155865). Even if you decide to switch over to Debian or other distribution this change may still affect you.
    @kansasnoob: Brasero has already been discussed in this thread.

    The current behaviour is broken - only because it has been broken for years is not a reason not to fix it.

  7. #17
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    Brasero has already been discussed in this thread.
    I'd think I'm aware of that since I'm the one that brought it up. But Brasero is displaying the same "size" reported by Nautilus.

    And I've already made clear the difference between "technically correct" and "user friendly". If I go buy CD's they're marked 700MB, is that not correct?

    If I right click an iso in Nautilus to check properties and it says the iso is in excess of 700MB does that not create confusion?

    If you refer to my bug report you'll see that Chris Coulson said:

    Your issue is that the web page is using the SI prefix for presenting a base 2 number, which is incorrect (718 * (10^6/2^20) = 685)
    So if those posting the size of an iso image use the "correct" method won't most people think that if the image is over 700MB it will NOT fit on a 700MB disc?

    I'd mentioned previously that maybe we can get the whole industry to start relabeling their discs

    I really don't think I can be any more clear than that, or as Forrest Gump would say, "that's all I have to say about that".

  8. #18
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    I lied, I guess I wasn't done after reading the last response at launchpad. Here's what I had to say:


    I just want to clarify a couple of things here for those who may not follow the discussion on the forums:

    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1428022

    I'm just an end user with no actual computer training and I respect your opinions as developers with true technical knowledge in this field. I hope you can respect my opinion as well. As I'm the only subscriber to this thread ATM I assure you I have no intention of debating this ad nauseam, now that I understand what's up I'll adjust to it, but I just want to point out how this effects the common end user such as myself.

    Point #1: CD's are marketed and labeled as 700MB. (I've never bought discs that would make me aware that, "Your CD is actually 734 MB = 700 MiB." BTW that quote is taken from Endolith's post here:

    http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...63&postcount=9

    Point #2: Currently the devs that put up the Ubuntu, Xubuntu, and Kubuntu daily builds show the size incorrectly according to Chris Coulson: "Your issue is that the web page is using the SI prefix for presenting a base 2 number, which is incorrect (718 * (10^6/2^20) = 685)". That comes from post #2 of this report. So they must all change to using your new "correct" method?

    Point #3: If the daily builds, the iso testing builds, and the release announcements themselves all adopt this standard, as described above, won't most end users, such as myself, think they would then need to use a DVD or Flash Drive? How would that work? I'd really like an answer to that one!

    Point #4: At this time I'm multi-booting Win XP, Hardy, Jaunty, Karmic, Lucid, Mint Gloria, Fedora 12, and Debian Squeeze. I even tried the current Lucid Thunar and it still follows the old behavior. Only Lucid's Nautilus employs this new policy, is this really a good move given points #1, #2, and #3 above?

    In conclusion, as an "uneducated" end user, I must say I don't see how this can work without getting the disc manufacturers to clarify the difference between MB and MiB, do you really think you can bring that about?

    I guess we'll all need to get re-educated to keep using Ubuntu.
    Link:

    https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...us/+bug/538165

  9. #19
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    Quote Originally Posted by recluce View Post
    Sigh, change for change's sake.
    Nope.

    I go back in computing a bit longer, so from the late 70s on, a Kilobyte (kB) was 1024 Bytes, a Megabyte (MB) was 1024 kb or 1024*1024 bytes
    Nope. It was never consistently used that way.

    Some marketing guy at a hard drive manufacturer came up with
    People keep saying this, but as far as I know, it's an urban legend. I've never seen anyone produce any evidence of it. Show some advertising or a manual from an old hard drive that marketed a measurement in base 2 units that wasn't just rounding. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix#Disk_drives

    Were the networking manufacturers in on the conspiracy? How about tape drives and disk drives? A 56K modem was 56,000 bits per second, not 57,344. The Memorex 650 disk was marketed as "1.5 megabit", using mega = 1,000,000. The "1.44 MB" disk, on the other hand, was 1.44 x 1024 x 1000 bytes, which is wrong no matter how you look at it.

    The "good old days" when K always meant 1024 and M always mean 1024 x 1024 exist only in your mind. It has always been inconsistent and confusing.

    how the f**k can I reconfigure Lucid to behave sanely (1 MB = 1024B)?
    It's being made to behave sanely as we speak. The previous behavior was insane.


    Quote Originally Posted by recluce View Post
    is Debian messing around with file size calculation as well?
    http://wiki.debian.org/ConsistentUnitPrefixes

    Mac OS X already made the switch to proper decimal units. http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2419

    Yes, this will be confusing in the case of CDs in particular, because they're measured in MiB but stated as "MB" by the manufacturer. But everything else is measured in decimal and stated in decimal, including other optical disks. Disk drives, DVDs, Blu-Ray, USB flash drives, etc. are all measured in decimal. This is why I think they should show both measurements in Brasero, because it deals with both CDs and DVDs.
    Last edited by Endolith; March 13th, 2010 at 10:10 PM.
    "Please remember to do things the Ubuntu way. There is always more than one solution to a problem, choose the one you think will be the easiest for the user. ... Try to think as a green user and choose the simplest solution." — Code of Conduct

  10. #20
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    Re: Lucid reads file size wrong/what package to debug?

    This would have been much easier if they just changed the wording from MB to MiB instead of sticking with MB and then switching the numbers around. I'm sure if they did that virtually nobody would notice the extra 'i' and ubuntu could stay being consistent with previous expectations. Is this change pulled in from upstream or is it a ubuntu specfic patch?

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