The shell way or the highway [long rant]

[t0p]

.
Yet I'm still afraid of the terminal.

When a noob like meself asks a question on the forums, it will most likely get a response. The solution will most likely involve running some commands over the terminal. It will most likely solve the problem in hand. This is certainly a good thing.

But i keep recalling the old phrase - give a man a fish, you have fed him for today.. Teach a man to fish, and you have fed him for a lifetime.

Like i said, i been happily using ubuntu for about a year now, but every time i ask a question on the forums, and someone responds with "wget this and that" and "tar -xzwf" - i get the chills..

You are very welcome to point out that I haven't read the man pages about tar, but i am a lazy guy, and after a year of going solo on ubuntu, i still don't know what -xzfw means. I'm not even sure if i remember that right.

I do acknowledge the fact that guiding some helpless noob like me is far easier through a series of shell commands, compared to posting in screenshots- doing it the lame way.

It also ascertains a distinction among "classes" of ubuntu (or linux) users - if you know the shell, you're in.

If you are afraid of the shell (like meself, not because I now feel more comfortable with a graphic environment, but because I feel less comfortable with typing in commands i dont know what they mean) - well, dunno, you're afraid of the shell.

Basically what i mean to say is - when you provide a bunch of terminal commands to solve whatever the question is, you're not really helping, unless you explain what those commands do, and what the other options are.

So when someone tells you to run such-and-such a command... don't do it. Instead, look up that command's manpage. Don't run the command until you are sure you know what you are doing. The manpages are installed on your computer. What's the problem?

Do you really expect, when you ask for help, that someone is going to take you by the little hand and teach you the intricasies of the subject? Do you really expect volunteers on a volunteer forum to go into such detail?

You ask for help, you get help. You want to know more, the manpages and Google are your friends.

Sheesh.

[yknivag]

Hi yknivag

Show me one post on this forum where anyone does that.

<snip>

If I had to explain my reasoning behind every suggestion i give
i would stop being a contributor.No one has that kind of time.
This isn't a job.

And (in my personal view) therein lies the problem. Why do we have so many duplicate posts? So many people who post the same thing after each upgrade and are told to blindly run the same commands. If they were told what they do then they stand a chance of doing it again on their own.

How much more time does it take to provide a one line explanation of what the command does?

When a Doctor gives you a prescription, do you expect him
to tell you how he arrived at that diagnosis?
Of course not.

Of course not. I know what diagnosis he did! I was there being prodded and poked whilst he was doing it!

Blueridgedog you hit the nail on the head.

Here's a scenario for you.

Complete noob needs to compile from source.
Walking them through this is going to be extremely
difficult due to lack of familiarity with the CLI.
If we can accomplish this daunting task we are all happy.
Now, imagine having to explain to the noob exactly what all
those commands mean and what they do

Hey, be my guest and explain them all to a noob

# tar xvzf package.tar.gz (or tar xvjf package.tar.bz2)
# cd package
# ./configure
# make
# make install

Quite easily as follows:

First unzip and unpack the tarball with

tar xvzf package.tar.gz

then change directory to the package

cd package

and run the following three commands which configure, compile and install the package.

./configure
make
make install

It is worth pointing out that this process will work with any such package downloaded.

I really don't see how that takes that much longer or removes the opportunity to help others.

[SunnyRabbiera]

To be honest the terminal is becoming less needed as time goes on in linux, but people will always give out terminal tutorials no matter what in linux as they try to play neutral.

[yknivag]

The other advantage of explaining (however briefly) what is happening also helps those people searching forums before posting their own thread to find something which answers their question. Or something which answers a question very similar to theirs with enough information for them to be able to work out a solution.

A good thread should not just serve the OP but those reading it with the same issue. This also serves to reduce the number of repeat requests for the same problem.

It's all well telling people to search before posting (which means we all have to repeat ourselves less) but if the answers given are too brief to be of use to them then they will post again anyway.

I'm not suggesting anyone should shy away from CLI solutions - quite the opposite. Just suggesting that a few seconds invested now may reduce many hours of repeating oneself in infinite threads to come.

[alphaniner]

If you take the position that linux should only ever be for those that have a good, clear understanding of its technical guts

This isn't the point I intended to make. I certainly think Linux should be usable by anyone and everyone. But using and administering are different things.

And it isn't even necessarily a matter of knowledge or understanding, but rather initiative. The OP admitted he is too lazy to even check a man page. Such a person should not be administering an OS, Linux or otherwise.

[snowpine]

Aaaand in the time we all took writing this thread, we could have helped 36 noobs with their problems.

[lykwydchykyn]

Aaaand in the time we all took writing this thread, we could have helped 36 noobs with their problems.

Yes, but we could only have helped so many by using CLI commands, the practice of which is apparently "holding linux back". So, by not helping noobs, we've been allowing Linux to move forward.

Or, something like that.

[benj1]

For a distro like Ubuntu however it is not acceptable. Ubuntu is aiming to be "for human beings" to be for the masses, and bug #1 is all about increasing market share. Those of us who are strong technical users with a good understanding of computing/cli/programming etc will NEVER be the majority, and consequently we will never further the aims of the disto if we adopt that kind of attitude.

We have to be aiming to make it as easy as possible for users who are never going to write code/scripts/hack drivers etc to get around the system and understand what is happening as much as they can...and this must happen on their terms not ours, or we will remain entirely stuck at the margins.

Now there are plenty who will argue that those aims are wrong and that the nature of OSS requires its users to be technical and engaged in order to be a useful and therefore welcome member of the community...I can't be bothered having that argument again, because the views on both sides tend to be intractable. Regardless of that however, for this distro, the decision has been made to go for the mass market, and that requires that we cater to those who are less technically able, and do so in the way that helps them learn the most that they can, so that they actually feel that they have some understanding of their computer.

The current system where undocumented cli responses prevail has lots of reasons behind it (many of them good) but it is fundamentally holding back the aims of the distro, and I personally think that those who run this forum should endeavour to find some form of solution - not that an easy one seems to actually exist.

I have to disagree, everybody here is volunteering their time, neither the forum staff, canonical or newbies can demand that we spoon feed people, if they want that then they can pay for support.

Aaaand in the time we all took writing this thread, we could have helped 36 noobs with their problems.

true I would defend it tho, because i don't come here purely to help newbs, yes i will when i come across a post but im sure i would probably visit less if it were just a purely technical forum.

[issih]

Yes, but we could only have helped so many by using CLI commands, the practice of which is apparently "holding linux back". So, by not helping noobs, we've been allowing Linux to move forward.

Or, something like that.

Thats just silly.... I started out by saying that the best response for a user is to investigate and to ask things if they want to know...

But its a double edged sword.. if there is a best practice for new users, then there is also a best practice for those of us that offer help.

Clearly any help is better than no help, but I am trying to point out that the OP has a point in criticising the use of undocumented CLI commands. It is inevitable that it will happen, and I have owned up to doing it myself. Nonetheless people should think about the reasons why it might not be the optimal way to solve problems.

Oh and I said it was "holding back the aims of the distro" if you use quotation marks you should actually quote things

As for benj1's comments.. I actually entirely agree, there is no onus on anyone to offer anything, as we do it out of kindness, but if you want to help people, then helping them in the way that helps them the most is better than helping them in the way that is easiest for you.

If the extra time that takes makes it not worth your while, then its entirely up to you to decide to do it the quick way, or indeed to choose not to do it at all.

Nonetheless we should think about the shortcuts we take and the impact that they have.....

P.S. By alphaniners logic the vast majority of windows users shouldn't be administering their pcs....and yet they are. That is the fundamental point, there are millions upon millions of people who are administering their pcs without having half the knowledge that ideally they should have to be doing that job. If ubuntu wants to be a large market share distro (which is its stated aim), it has to cater for them, because they are not going to suddenly develop those skills overnight just because they download an iso.

[benj1]

P.S. By alphaniners logic the vast majority of windows users shouldn't be administering their pcs....and yet they are. That is the fundamental point, there are millions upon millions of people who are administering their pcs without having half the knowledge that ideally they should have to be doing that job. If ubuntu wants to be a large market share distro (which is its stated aim), it has to cater for them, because they are not going to suddenly develop those skills overnight just because they download an iso.

does that mean we should aim to keep them ignorant, a la windows ?