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Thread: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

  1. #141
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    Re: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

    Quote Originally Posted by aimwin View Post
    Dear 23meg,

    Please comment if there is any negative effect if we have a better warning, especially your "statements" or "warning" which I quoted as a "better warning in beta"

    Thank you, with great respect.
    I'm not sure it's feasible to include a different warning during the pre-release phase, since during that phase we also need to test Update Manager itself the way it will work in a stable release.

    If what you mean by "better warning" is bigger, flashy letters shouting at testers that Update Manager is about to break their system, I don't think that will be beneficial. And going too far in that direction may cause people to simply refrain from updating some packages indefinitely, and asking for assistance on whether or not to remove them every time, the same way they do now. As long as people don't learn how to figure out what needs to be done when a package is being held back or removed, the problems will remain.

  2. #142
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    Re: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

    Quote Originally Posted by 23meg View Post
    I'm not sure it's feasible to include a different warning during the pre-release phase, since during that phase we also need to test Update Manager itself the way it will work in a stable release.

    If what you mean by "better warning" is bigger, flashy letters shouting at testers that Update Manager is about to break their system, I don't think that will be beneficial. And going too far in that direction may cause people to simply refrain from updating some packages indefinitely, and asking for assistance on whether or not to remove them every time, the same way they do now. As long as people don't learn how to figure out what needs to be done when a package is being held back or removed, the problems will remain.
    How can not warning the user that they are about to break their system going to help things? You say you want people to understand what a partial upgrade does, and then you say you don't want them to know it will break their system because you want to test out Update Manger. That doesn't jive.

    I think there should be more information on that dialog than just the words "Partial Upgrade", which nobody will understand unless they go and research and find out that an innocuous sounding thing is actually probably going to destroy their system (potentially). I think there should at least be a link to help or somewhere online to explain what it does. Keeping users in the dark isn't a good practice.
    Last edited by flipper9; October 28th, 2009 at 05:46 PM.

  3. #143
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    Re: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

    No, 23meg is saying that you have been warned, you need to know how to check into these things your self and that changing the system more defeats the purpose of testing as UM would no longer be the one we use in the Final release.

    None of this is hard to understand. It is plainly stated, in clear language.

    I am having trouble understanding these continuing troll attacks on 23meg as if there is some personal harm being done to you because 23meg will not come to your computer and guard you from yourself.

    Give it a damned break. These juvenile looping arguments are a waste of forum space and silly, besides being insulting to 23meg who started this thread so that people would have exactly the type of warning and support you, apparently, want hand delivered by your nanny.
    Dell 480 XPS 3G ram Quad Core 2.40GHz, Radeon HD 2400 PRO, Audigy1, 3x320G HDD, 320G External, Debian Testing for use, Debian Squeeze for secure use, Debian Sid for FUN

  4. #144
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    Re: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

    I'm attacking no one. I'm suggesting changes to the system that I would think benefit the users. Take a break or something.

    And if we can't speak our minds about a topic that is important to us, or there is some kind of hiearchy where certain users can speak and others have to yield to the wishes of others, then what's the point of the forum? No disrespect to 23meg, who appears to be important, but I disagree with his thinking. If that's insulting him, then there is a problem with the Ubuntu system where we can't disagree.
    Last edited by flipper9; October 28th, 2009 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #145
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    Re: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

    Quote Originally Posted by flipper9 View Post
    How can not warning the user that they are about to break their system going to help things? You say you want people to understand what a partial upgrade does, and then you say you don't want them to know it will break their system because you want to test out Update Manger. That doesn't jive.
    I'm not advocating not warning people that a "Partial Upgrade" can be dangerous if they don't know what they're doing. "Can be" is the part you seem to miss.

    What I'm saying is that a "Partial Upgrade" is not necessarily harmful, and is actually needed in many cases, and that bigger, flashier letters shouting "I'm about to break your system - Would you like to continue?" at testers is not a solution. The solution, as I've stated a few times, is to redesign the entire way the Partial Upgrade is presented to pre-release testers and stable release users, perhaps separately, and work harder and do better at educating semi-regular and irregular testers on what they should do when faced with one.

    Quote Originally Posted by flipper9 View Post
    I think there should be more information on that dialog than just the words "Partial Upgrade", which nobody will understand unless they go and research and find out that an innocuous sounding thing is actually probably going to destroy their system (potentially). I think there should at least be a link to help or somewhere online to explain what it does. Keeping users in the dark isn't a good practice.
    There's already more information than just the words "Partial Upgrade", but it doesn't work well enough.

  6. #146
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    Re: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

    Thanks 23meg. I think I understand. Maybe necessary partial upgrades can be detected, and ones that cause problems (due to being mid-way in an update with not all updates available) can be detected and the message can be different depending. As long as these types of updates never come up during the regular life of a release then I guess it's not too big of an issue.

    I only brought it up because, as a power user, the description and title presented seemed to be pretty innocuous, and no more dangerous than running a alpha/beta/development release that we all accept when we use such a system. Guess education is the key, but as we know not everyone gets their education until something goes wrong, and some will just choose not to listen.

    Thanks again, and glad to hear someone is considering these issues.

  7. #147
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    Ubuntu Karmic Koala (testing)

    Re: Update Manager Offers a "Partial Upgrade"? Read This.

    Wohoo! We'll be getting the final release today! So no need to worry about Partial Upgrades from now! xD

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