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Thread: Just a Question from a man

  1. #21
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Ok here is two episodes from my life experience that tells a bit about how weak and defenceless woman are.

    I know from that I worked on a farm where the woman and man did equally work outside and the man sat down tired and unable to do more that day while the woman still had the entire household to take care off I would say that man and women are a bit different . woman does work harder at any day I seemed to have noticed.

    Woman are not small little defenceless creatures in my family either. I have a family member that once stabbed her husband with a fork because that was the closest thing on the table and he still try to tell the story as it was a big kitchen knife she had used. that hurt his ego a bit that episode.

    my sister deals with sexual unwanted attention in a bit different way than most men would expect. she has beat more than one man up and there is several bars she is not allowed to come to because she has broken some ones nose or arm or whatever.

    so .... I guess that all imaginations I sometimes see that the woman are not equally strong intelligent or what ever is something that is simply not true. at least from my perspective.

    based on this I would say that in all relations it is better to meet others with respect and never to talk down to anyone. not even a child as children has still a free will and a mind of its own. I think it is all in all as simple as that.
    please buy this online only compilation to support victims of japan. http://www.punk4japan.com/

  2. #22
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachstelze View Post
    Of course you're qualified to judge how others should behave, and in that particular case (and lots of others), you should do just that. Refusal to "judge" others, because after all, it's just a matter of "cultural values" is a plague and has led to countless atrocities. If you had a mutilated woman right in front of you, would you tell her "I'm not qualified to judge, it's just cultural values"?
    in that example, i am involved in the "conversation" whether i like it or not.
    now imagine your argument in reverse, where someone from a different culture is not abusing someone, even though your culture says they should. would you be required to "Judge" and thus abuse that person?

  3. #23
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    I think the key thing here is to not make assumptions about anyone based on broad categories that person fits into (gender, nationality, ethnic affiliation, native language, economic status, formal education level).

    It doesn't matter what generalizations you think have some grain of truth to them. Imposing stereotypes on other people is unfair.

    I wrote at length about this on my blog: Let nature do its own work

    I can't know just from the fact that a person is female that... that anything. I can't know if she's attracted to men or women or both or neither. I can't know what movies she likes. I can't know how physically strong or weak she is. I can't know what interest or lack of interest she has in technology. There is nothing I can tell about a person from just knowing that person's genitalia.

    And, frankly, I get annoyed the other way, too. I'm biologically male. But I don't do a lot of stereotypically male things, and I don't like it when people try to box me in that way.

    I don't think it's that difficult to recognize that most people on a Linux forum will be male while also acknowledging that females are also here and should not be ignored and should not have to pass as male to be treated with dignity.

  4. #24
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by cmay View Post
    I can remember one time a mod called laroza had somewhere in the forums told that she was a girl. and then after that I saw that she in a post also mentioned that this episode had to some of the forum members mend that they interacted with her differently-.
    LaRoza revealed gender? LaRoza always said "I am borg. Borg have no gender."
    I however think its a shame how all the threads that brings this subject up gets closed. I have very little to say other than I dislike sexism and racism. it is too me the same thing but why could we not just make a tread that could allow all the different views no matter how heated things might get to once and for all settle this .
    I think the issue is that the non-sexist people are in the minority So
    we go in there going "hello! Women are not incapable of using computers!" and get drowned out in a thread full of "yeah, women are all inherently bad with computers. It's biology."

    LinuxChix | Linux User #432169 | Ubuntu User #8495 | IRC: maco @ irc.linuxchix.org or irc.freenode.net

  5. #25
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by Bachstelze View Post
    If you had a mutilated woman right in front of you, would you tell her "I'm not qualified to judge, it's just cultural values"?
    What if she said "it's just cultural values", aren't women the ones who are the primarily doing FGM?

    I feel contempt and hatred for religion and yet many women run along with it, so I am mostly ashamed to be human.

    One of the biggest things that is putting me off is the amount of drama coming from a small group of hardcore anti-sexism people who jump like the world is falling in at every little thing, Mark Shuttleworth's linuxcon speech was 10/10, and one of the few speechs I have watched in full, seeing the 'anti-sexism parade' response was the last straw, if it had been Grandpa or dad, or the grandpa test, or if Mark was a girl and said, "it would be easier to explain to guys what we do" I would have not even noticed.

    I'm over it.

    http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/39826

    Is just embarrassing.

  6. #26
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by macogw View Post
    LaRoza revealed gender? LaRoza always said "I am borg. Borg have no gender."
    LaRoza was/is a man. There was quite a long thread in the Community Cafe about it, over a year ago I believe.

  7. #27
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by ikt View Post
    One of the biggest things that is putting me off is the amount of drama coming from a small group of hardcore anti-sexism people who jump like the world is falling in at every little thing, Mark Shuttleworth's linuxcon speech was 10/10, and one of the few speechs I have watched in full, seeing the 'anti-sexism parade' response was the last straw, if it had been Grandpa or dad, or the grandpa test, or if Mark was a girl and said, "it would be easier to explain to guys what we do" I would have not even noticed.
    But he didn't say that, and that's what people are upset about. You can't live in a cultural vacuum.

    People in FOSS communities are not as likely to say "It would be easier to explain to guys what we do" or "grandpa" or "dad" as they are to say "It would be easier to explain to girls what we do" or "grandma" or "mom."

    Here's a great example: Ubuntu – good enough for grannies and girlfriends

    The blog post is about how the author's girlfriend is tech-phobic and fine with Ubuntu. So suddenly that extends to all girlfriends? And grannies, too?!

    There is definitely a stereotype prevalent in the Ubuntu community (yes, on these very forums, too) that females are somehow as a whole tech-deficient. So when you say "It would be easier to explain to girls what we do" you are reinforcing that stereotype and that notion. You are also subtly making the men the "we" and the girls the "them," when really "we" should be the whole Ubuntu Linux community, which includes (even though they are a minority) women, too. Likewise, "them" consists of both men and women in great numbers (people who do not understand Linux in general or Ubuntu Linux specifically).

    Really, though, it becomes a big deal only if people are in denial that it's a problem.

    If someone says "I took issue with Mark's remark for these reasons." And you say "Yes, you're correct." Then it blows over. If, however, you say "It's not a problem. What's with all this political correctness. I found it funny. Can't you take a joke? If I don't mind insults why can't everyone not mind insults? If he substituted in 'guys' for 'girls' it wouldn't be a problem," then you're the one making it a bigger deal than it is. It then becomes this huge argument.

    And I really get sick of this whole idea of "If I don't get offended by it, why should you?" mentality. It makes no sense. You are not the center of the world. There are other people in it, too.

    So you get offended by anti-sexism folks? Well, what if I said I'm not offended by them? Do I get to totally dismiss your feelings?

    We don't live in a cultural vacuum.

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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by oldos2er View Post
    LaRoza was/is a man. There was quite a long thread in the Community Cafe about it, over a year ago I believe.
    I remember the thread, and LaRoza posted a "topless" picture. The Borg Queen, separated at the waist.
    Quote Originally Posted by ikt View Post
    TuxMachines person made it pretty clear in that post they hate Ubuntu and are looking for an excuse to boycott.

    LinuxChix | Linux User #432169 | Ubuntu User #8495 | IRC: maco @ irc.linuxchix.org or irc.freenode.net

  9. #29
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu View Post
    You are also subtly
    Yes, it was so subtle it didn't even register on my mind or anyone else who I linked to the video, I mean I've seen some of the previous things on geekfeminism that are without a doubt worthy of hitting the rage bottle, naked women in a slide at a professional conference is atrocious, implying sexism when mark says he'd like to impress girls by having more usable software is stretching it.

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu View Post
    then you're the one making it a bigger deal than it is. It then becomes this huge argument.
    Actually I'm pretty sure it's not me, after all I watched the video and are now just expressing my disapointment at the responses to the video, if people watched the video and didn't nitpick the hell out of it there wouldn't be a big deal, I'm not happy about the nitpicking, the porno slideshow is a big deal and definitely is worthy of a response.

    I think they would better spend time going back over old microsoft speeches by bill gates to see if he implied any sexism subtly.


    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu View Post
    And I really get sick of this whole idea of "If I don't get offended by it, why should you?" mentality. It makes no sense. You are not the center of the world. There are other people in it, too.
    No, I'm outright saying what he said was not offensive, that is I believe they are nitpicking.

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu View Post
    So you get offended by anti-sexism folks?
    Nope, in fact I was 110% behind anti-sexism.. which means I could back track 10% and I'd still be 100% behind anti-sexism.. and saying that.. I am still 110% behind anti-sexism, it's stupid and pointless.

    Why would I get offended by anti-sexism, working with women has been a positive experience for me and I enjoy it very much, I work in an industry which has more women than men (retail) thus I work with a lot of great women.

    I mean again, I struggle to get offended about something so small and I'm trying to rationalise it, I'm trying to be offended.. it's not happening though, I see are so many women willing to accept Christianity or Islam (the 2 most sexist things in existence) but mark says "guys" a lot and all of sudden it's the worst most sexist thing ever.

    maco

    @evan from what folks there said, he was making a joke and girls == women

    maco

    @evan like as in trying to impress/pickup chicks
    I can't find the outrage in the above.

    I thought he was going to get more outrage about the "Shut the **** up protocol"

    :/

    Quote Originally Posted by macogw View Post
    I remember the thread, and LaRoza posted a "topless" picture. The Borg Queen, separated at the waist.


    TuxMachines person made it pretty clear in that post they hate Ubuntu and are looking for an excuse to boycott.
    I just noticed you are the same maco as the one who posted what I quoted, what are your thoughts on this? I'm really trying to see it.
    Last edited by ikt; October 1st, 2009 at 10:41 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Just a Question from a man

    Quote Originally Posted by ikt View Post
    I mean again, I struggle to get offended about something so small and I'm trying to rationalise it, I'm trying to be offended..
    Why does everything have to be only offensive or not offensive? That is a false dichotomy. Forget about offense. You don't have to get caught up in the term of offense or offensive. Mark chose certain words to express a point and better words could have been chosen that would be less exclusive. Has Mark committed a grave offense? Should he be locked up in prison? Is he a chauvinist pig? No, no, and no.

    Does that mean nothing could be suggested for him to change in his speeches to better include those who are usually excluded in FOSS communities? Again, no.

    I don't really care what offends you or doesn't offend you. I do care if Mark can express the same point in a more inclusive way that he consider doing so.

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