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Thread: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

  1. #61
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    Ubuntu 10.10 Maverick Meerkat

    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    Quote Originally Posted by idigchess View Post
    Which one? OCZ vertex 120gb? I was looking at that but I thought that the used performance didn't look great compared to the intel drives and we still don't know if trim will really work all that great. Is the trim support in thos drives stable? I need 100gb, so I can't really go with anything smaller.
    Read the threads at OCZ forum (two SSD sections). Lots of people give benchmarks.
    http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/index.php

    I don't think used performance is a big problem, maybe intel used is better I dunno. Pretty sure recent anandtech article did benchmarks. TRIM and garbage collection is supposed to take care of that. You should end up with 90% new speed. Anandtech recommends 20% drive free space for optimal speed (and probably wear leveling).

    With OCZ you can use TRIM or Garbage collection firmware. Since TRIM only works on win7, if running linux you'd want garbage collection firmware until linux support improves.

    TRIM on OCZ is stable as far as I know. But linux doesn't support TRIM fully yet, so you'd be better off with GC firmare until ubuntu 10.04 release (unless TRIM for linux stabilizes a lot).

    Demand is high, supply low for SSD, so they are still expensive (similar prices as March 2009). You pretty much have to wait for a big sale for a decent price.

    Check out OCZ vertex 120gb price history at newegg
    http://diskcompare.com/disk/666/ (graph on left side)
    The new firmwares (TRIM) out for SSD have caused demand increase.

    Intel prices are no better. Still ~$60 above suggested price from 3 months ago...
    Last edited by andrewabc; October 28th, 2009 at 10:45 PM.

  2. #62
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    81

    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    trim works on linux, use wiper.sh every day. Where is the problem?

    Make a daily cronjob for wiper.sh (and comment out line 511-517 in wiper-2.5 for the "do you really want..")
    as /etc/cron.daily/wiper:
    Code:
    #!/bin/sh
    
    test -x /usr/local/bin/wiper.sh || exit 0
    date >> /var/log/wiper.log
    /usr/local/bin/wiper.sh --commit / >>/var/log/wiper.log
    /usr/local/bin/wiper.sh --commit /home >>/var/log/wiper.log
    w7/vista is not needed for partitioning. Use "fdisk -H32 -S32 /dev/sda" for 512k alignment or use "fdisk -u" to set the sector numbers like men, like real men!!!

    used performance after wiper with Supertalent Ultradrive 128GB Firmware 1819
    Code:
    root@locutus:~# iozone -I -a -s 256M -r 4k -r 64k -r 512k -i 0 -i 1 -i 2
    	Iozone: Performance Test of File I/O
    	        Version $Revision: 3.308 $
    		Compiled for 64 bit mode.
    		Build: linux 
    
    	Contributors:William Norcott, Don Capps, Isom Crawford, Kirby Collins
    	             Al Slater, Scott Rhine, Mike Wisner, Ken Goss
    	             Steve Landherr, Brad Smith, Mark Kelly, Dr. Alain CYR,
    	             Randy Dunlap, Mark Montague, Dan Million, Gavin Brebner,
    	             Jean-Marc Zucconi, Jeff Blomberg, Benny Halevy,
    	             Erik Habbinga, Kris Strecker, Walter Wong, Joshua Root.
    
    	Run began: Thu Oct 29 00:42:25 2009
    
    	O_DIRECT feature enabled
    	Auto Mode
    	File size set to 262144 KB
    	Record Size 4 KB
    	Record Size 64 KB
    	Record Size 512 KB
    	Command line used: iozone -I -a -s 256M -r 4k -r 64k -r 512k -i 0 -i 1 -i 2
    	Output is in Kbytes/sec
    	Time Resolution = 0.000001 seconds.
    	Processor cache size set to 1024 Kbytes.
    	Processor cache line size set to 32 bytes.
    	File stride size set to 17 * record size.
                                                                random  random    bkwd   record   stride                                   
                  KB  reclen   write rewrite    read    reread    read   write    read  rewrite     read   fwrite frewrite   fread  freread
              262144       4   52588   59931    49144    49201   29894   15370                                                          
              262144      64  115506  122981   229070   229314  133219  129767                                                          
              262144     512  145350  140268   259870   260296  216764  146239                                                          
    
    iozone test complete.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin

    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    Quote Originally Posted by antiram View Post
    trim works on linux, use wiper.sh every day. Where is the problem?

    Make a daily cronjob for wiper.sh (and comment out line 511-517 in wiper-2.5 for the "do you really want..")
    as /etc/cron.daily/wiper:
    Code:
    #!/bin/sh
    
    test -x /usr/local/bin/wiper.sh || exit 0
    date >> /var/log/wiper.log
    /usr/local/bin/wiper.sh --commit / >>/var/log/wiper.log
    /usr/local/bin/wiper.sh --commit /home >>/var/log/wiper.log
    w7/vista is not needed for partitioning. Use "fdisk -H32 -S32 /dev/sda" for 512k alignment or use "fdisk -u" to set the sector numbers like men, like real men!!!

    used performance after wiper with Supertalent Ultradrive 128GB Firmware 1819
    Code:
    root@locutus:~# iozone -I -a -s 256M -r 4k -r 64k -r 512k -i 0 -i 1 -i 2
    	Iozone: Performance Test of File I/O
    	        Version $Revision: 3.308 $
    		Compiled for 64 bit mode.
    		Build: linux 
    
    	Contributors:William Norcott, Don Capps, Isom Crawford, Kirby Collins
    	             Al Slater, Scott Rhine, Mike Wisner, Ken Goss
    	             Steve Landherr, Brad Smith, Mark Kelly, Dr. Alain CYR,
    	             Randy Dunlap, Mark Montague, Dan Million, Gavin Brebner,
    	             Jean-Marc Zucconi, Jeff Blomberg, Benny Halevy,
    	             Erik Habbinga, Kris Strecker, Walter Wong, Joshua Root.
    
    	Run began: Thu Oct 29 00:42:25 2009
    
    	O_DIRECT feature enabled
    	Auto Mode
    	File size set to 262144 KB
    	Record Size 4 KB
    	Record Size 64 KB
    	Record Size 512 KB
    	Command line used: iozone -I -a -s 256M -r 4k -r 64k -r 512k -i 0 -i 1 -i 2
    	Output is in Kbytes/sec
    	Time Resolution = 0.000001 seconds.
    	Processor cache size set to 1024 Kbytes.
    	Processor cache line size set to 32 bytes.
    	File stride size set to 17 * record size.
                                                                random  random    bkwd   record   stride                                   
                  KB  reclen   write rewrite    read    reread    read   write    read  rewrite     read   fwrite frewrite   fread  freread
              262144       4   52588   59931    49144    49201   29894   15370                                                          
              262144      64  115506  122981   229070   229314  133219  129767                                                          
              262144     512  145350  140268   259870   260296  216764  146239                                                          
    
    iozone test complete.
    Real trim would be automatic, OS based, without needing a script to manually do it. And if the tool works, it works. It doesn't matter how it's done.

  4. #64
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    Nov 2008
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    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    @antiram

    great performance indeed!

  5. #65
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    Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin

    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewabc View Post
    Read the threads at OCZ forum (two SSD sections). Lots of people give benchmarks.
    http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/index.php

    I don't think used performance is a big problem, maybe intel used is better I dunno. Pretty sure recent anandtech article did benchmarks. TRIM and garbage collection is supposed to take care of that. You should end up with 90% new speed. Anandtech recommends 20% drive free space for optimal speed (and probably wear leveling).

    With OCZ you can use TRIM or Garbage collection firmware. Since TRIM only works on win7, if running linux you'd want garbage collection firmware until linux support improves.

    TRIM on OCZ is stable as far as I know. But linux doesn't support TRIM fully yet, so you'd be better off with GC firmare until ubuntu 10.04 release (unless TRIM for linux stabilizes a lot).

    Demand is high, supply low for SSD, so they are still expensive (similar prices as March 2009). You pretty much have to wait for a big sale for a decent price.

    Check out OCZ vertex 120gb price history at newegg
    http://diskcompare.com/disk/666/ (graph on left side)
    The new firmwares (TRIM) out for SSD have caused demand increase.

    Intel prices are no better. Still ~$60 above suggested price from 3 months ago...
    correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that the OCZ garbage collecting firmware worked on non-NTFS partitions.

  6. #66
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    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    garbage collection has nothing to do with ntfs. gc is needed on every ssd with write combining = log structured (eg. indilinx, intel).
    http://lwn.net/Articles/353411/

    it is only the question how much garbage must be cleaned. Most garbage cleaning means heavy writing and wear out for good performance without trim. The ssd lives longer with trim.

  7. #67
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    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    Quote Originally Posted by antiram View Post
    garbage collection has nothing to do with ntfs. gc is needed on every ssd with write combining = log structured (eg. indilinx, intel).
    http://lwn.net/Articles/353411/

    it is only the question how much garbage must be cleaned. Most garbage cleaning means heavy writing and wear out for good performance without trim. The ssd lives longer with trim.
    Okay, I think I might not get this. I thought that garbage collecting was an indilinx-specific firmware algorithm that allowed the ssd to figure out which files had been deleted and remove them, similar to trim, when the computer was idle for 2+ hours, completely independent of the OS. I was pretty sure that Intel had nothing of the like.

    Yeah, based on this article:
    http://www.anandtech.com/storage/sho...px?i=3631&p=14
    it appears that only samsung and indilinx have this right now. So I don't think that it's needed on every ssd with write combining. But anyway, I still am pretty sure that the indilinx one can't work on an ext4 fs.

  8. #68
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    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    the ntfs feature has only samsung. anand talks about a "cleaning lady"
    http://www.anandtech.com/storage/sho...spx?i=3631&p=4
    which is the garbage collection as basic technical necessity.

  9. #69
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    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    Quote Originally Posted by antiram View Post
    the ntfs feature has only samsung. anand talks about a "cleaning lady"
    http://www.anandtech.com/storage/sho...spx?i=3631&p=4
    which is the garbage collection as basic technical necessity.
    Okay, we're talking about different things. What I was talking about was the idle garbage collection, not the cleaning lady. As here, it is not necessary because only Indilinx and samsung have it right now, but not Intel. And, at least for samsung (probably Indi) it only works on NTFS.


    Impact of Idle Garbage Collection

    The other option that Indilinx provides its users to improve used performance is something called idle or background garbage collection. The idea is that without any effort on your or the OS’ part your drive, while idle, will defragment itself.

    The feature was actually first introduced by Samsung for its RBB based drives, but I’ll get to the issues with Samsung’s drives momentarily.

    It either works by looking at the data on the drive and organizing it into a less fragmented state, or by looking at the file system on the drive and attempting to TRIM based on what it finds. Both Indilinx and Samsung have attempted to implement this sort of idle garbage collection and it appears they do it in different ways. While the end result is the same, how they get there determines the usefulness of this feature.

    In the first scenario, this is not simply TRIMing the contents of the drive, the drive doesn’t know what to TRIM; it must still keep track of all data. Instead, the drive is re-organizing its data to maximize performance.

    The second scenario requires a compatible file system (allegedly NTFS for the Samsung drives) and then the data is actually TRIMed as it would be with the TRIM instruction.

    Details are slim, but the idle garbage collection does work in improving performance:
    PCMark Vantage HDD Score New "Used" After TRIM/Idle GC % of New Perf
    Corsair P256 (Samsung MLC) 26607 18786 24317 91%



    Presumably this isn’t without some impact to battery life in a notebook. Furthermore, it’s impossible to tell what impact this has on the lifespan of the drive. If a drive is simply reorganizing data on the fly into a better (higher performing) state, that’s a lot of reads and writes when you’re doing nothing at all. And unfortunately, there’s no way to switch it off.

    While Indilinx is following in Samsung's footsteps with enabling idle garbage collection, I believe it's a mistake. Personally, real TRIM support (or at least the wiper tool) is the way to go and it sounds like we’ll be getting it for most if not all of these SSDs in the next couple of months. Idle garbage collection worries me.
    Citations: http://www.anandtech.com/storage/sho...px?i=3631&p=14

  10. #70
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    Re: Will Karmic Koala automatically have trim in effect ...

    I'm 100% certain that Garbage collection will work on non NTFS. It will work on ext4. GC has nothing to do with filesystem or operating system.

    Also garbage collection starts working within minutes. You no longer have to put computer idle for several hours (although it will allow GC to work better and more thorough eg. you fill, then empty the drive several times).

    What settings do I need to make garbage collection work?

    There are several threads at OCZ forum about this.
    GC works automatically, and on any filesystem or OS.

    GC goes to 95% performance in 1 hour

    So either the people working at OCZ are complete liars and no one bothered to refute their claims (there is a kernel developer there...), or it does what they say.
    Last edited by andrewabc; October 30th, 2009 at 03:21 AM.

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