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Thread: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

  1. #41
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by karellen View Post
    nobody forces the user to buy (or to use) windows. it's a business like so many others; and about the anti-freedom and not being open sourced...well most people don't care. for them computers are just tools, not credos, not ideologies. not everyone has the time, the willingness and the passion to fiddle with things so irrelevant to them as programs and operating systems. I've used Linux since 2003, but not because I hate Microsoft or Windows but because I like diversity, change and I wanted to find out more; it's just an alternative, not a religion. at least for me
    I think you draw a false dichotomy here; software freedom doesn't have to be important on the level of religion or personal freedoms to be important. And as for the "average person"... since when is public apathy a measure of the importance of a cause?

    It's funny, if you ask people if "computers" are important to our lives these days, most people would agree they are. Computers hold your bank account, your medical record, your voter registration, and your tax information. They calculate your paycheck, your credit card bill, your utility bills, and your taxes. For a lot of us, they hold our work, our hobbies, our family photos and movies, our music collections, movies, and games. Where I work most people sit at a computer 8 hours a day, and what they're doing is putting data into a computer.

    But you ask people if software is important and they act like you're some kind of geek weirdo. What is a computer if not software? Does the hard drive or processor really make a difference? Does it matter to you what kind of CPU is tallying the vote you cast in the last election? Or does it matter more what software is tallying those votes?

    Here's a thought: does anyone expect computers (and therefore software) to have *less* of an impact on our daily lives for the next 25 years?

    I am not an accountant; I don't understand tax law, I haven't even done my own taxes for the last 10 years. So do I care that the tax laws are published and publicly available? Would I be just as happy if the IRS calculated what I owe in a "black box" and just released a mysterious figure to me? Clearly, no; because I know that even if I don't understand how my tax figures came to be, I know that I can hire someone independent to calculate it for me using publicly available laws.

    Software freedom isn't an idealistic cause for me, it's not a religion; it's just a feature, and one that I've come to value highly because I have found that it has tangible pragmatic benefits.

  2. #42
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    I think you draw a false dichotomy here; software freedom doesn't have to be important on the level of religion or personal freedoms to be important. And as for the "average person"... since when is public apathy a measure of the importance of a cause?

    It's funny, if you ask people if "computers" are important to our lives these days, most people would agree they are. Computers hold your bank account, your medical record, your voter registration, and your tax information. They calculate your paycheck, your credit card bill, your utility bills, and your taxes. For a lot of us, they hold our work, our hobbies, our family photos and movies, our music collections, movies, and games. Where I work most people sit at a computer 8 hours a day, and what they're doing is putting data into a computer.

    But you ask people if software is important and they act like you're some kind of geek weirdo. What is a computer if not software? Does the hard drive or processor really make a difference? Does it matter to you what kind of CPU is tallying the vote you cast in the last election? Or does it matter more what software is tallying those votes?

    Here's a thought: does anyone expect computers (and therefore software) to have *less* of an impact on our daily lives for the next 25 years?

    I am not an accountant; I don't understand tax law, I haven't even done my own taxes for the last 10 years. So do I care that the tax laws are published and publicly available? Would I be just as happy if the IRS calculated what I owe in a "black box" and just released a mysterious figure to me? Clearly, no; because I know that even if I don't understand how my tax figures came to be, I know that I can hire someone independent to calculate it for me using publicly available laws.

    Software freedom isn't an idealistic cause for me, it's not a religion; it's just a feature, and one that I've come to value highly because I have found that it has tangible pragmatic benefits.
    This is one of the best posts I have ever read on Internet. Period.

  3. #43
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by pirate_tux View Post
    Everybody knows Windows is bloatware, crapware and bugware.

    So why are we having this discussion???
    I didn't know that yet. Thanks for enlightening me with such clearly referenced and logically supported claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    I think you draw a false dichotomy here; software freedom doesn't have to be important on the level of religion or personal freedoms to be important. And as for the "average person"... since when is public apathy a measure of the importance of a cause?

    It's funny, if you ask people if "computers" are important to our lives these days, most people would agree they are. Computers hold your bank account, your medical record, your voter registration, and your tax information. They calculate your paycheck, your credit card bill, your utility bills, and your taxes. For a lot of us, they hold our work, our hobbies, our family photos and movies, our music collections, movies, and games. Where I work most people sit at a computer 8 hours a day, and what they're doing is putting data into a computer.

    But you ask people if software is important and they act like you're some kind of geek weirdo. What is a computer if not software? Does the hard drive or processor really make a difference? Does it matter to you what kind of CPU is tallying the vote you cast in the last election? Or does it matter more what software is tallying those votes?

    Here's a thought: does anyone expect computers (and therefore software) to have *less* of an impact on our daily lives for the next 25 years?

    I am not an accountant; I don't understand tax law, I haven't even done my own taxes for the last 10 years. So do I care that the tax laws are published and publicly available? Would I be just as happy if the IRS calculated what I owe in a "black box" and just released a mysterious figure to me? Clearly, no; because I know that even if I don't understand how my tax figures came to be, I know that I can hire someone independent to calculate it for me using publicly available laws.

    Software freedom isn't an idealistic cause for me, it's not a religion; it's just a feature, and one that I've come to value highly because I have found that it has tangible pragmatic benefits.
    A tremendous +1

    This illustrates everything I love about open source software.

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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    I am not an accountant; I don't understand tax law, I haven't even done my own taxes for the last 10 years. So do I care that the tax laws are published and publicly available? Would I be just as happy if the IRS calculated what I owe in a "black box" and just released a mysterious figure to me? Clearly, no; because I know that even if I don't understand how my tax figures came to be, I know that I can hire someone independent to calculate it for me using publicly available laws.
    Well put.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    Interesting how people make statements like "I don't care about access to source code, I just want it to work", as though the two were mutually exclusive.

    Naturally, proprietary apps often work, and sometimes open source ones don't work or don't work as well; so I understand where the statement is coming from. But access to source code is all about making a computer "just work". That's the point, not some geeky obsession with gazing at someone else's C handiwork.

    If you have used a computer for a long time (as in, though multiple platform/version transitions) and for more than just web browsing and playing games, probably some of these things have happened to you:

    - Had to purchase new software because the file formats changed and your version didn't support the new format
    - Had to buy a new OS because the new application version you need doesn't support your OS version.
    - Had to buy a new computer or upgrade your hardware because the new OS you required (for the reasons above) didn't support your hardware.
    - Had to find a replacement for a program you relied on because the vendor went out of business, or decided they didn't want to keep supporting/publishing that title.
    - Were prevented from switching to a competitor's superior software because you have GB of files in the current vendor's format, and there's no conversion utility.
    - Were unable to do what you needed with a program because of an arbitrary (rather than technical) limitation imposed on your software because you bought the "lite" or "home" version, rather than the "pro" or "ultimate" version.
    - Were driven to use one company's software because of compatibility issues, rather than choosing them on the basis of price/features/quality.

    I could go on, but basically these are the kinds of fundamental problems with information technology that the free software movement was created to combat. Forget Microsoft, it's an issue of the proprietary "product" model vs. an open source "support" model. e.g., if your business relies on selling copies of a product, you only make money if people buy more copies of your products. The worst thing that can happen is someone buy your product and run it for 10 years happily. You need them to pay for an upgrade every 1-2 years, or buy an additional product, or buy more licenses of your product in order to stay profitable.

    Recommended reading:

    http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/

    http://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software
    I would have thanked for this post, but I don't have the button in this thread... You are so right...
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  6. #46
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    I put multiple quotes because they are all relevant and somewhat in the same level...

    Quote Originally Posted by rickyjones View Post
    I'm interested - how exactly does Microsoft crush freedom? What kind of freedom are you discussing? Interesting concept, I'd like to see the points.

    Thanks,
    Richard
    Microsoft limits use of its software, if you are upgrading the hardware of your PC. Maybe the installed Windows "thinks" that it is installed on another computer, and does not work any more, and forces you to buy another copy. Or maybe you want a newer computer and use the older MS software but you are not allowed to do that: in their vision, you should buy a new MS license, even your older computer is "put to rest", so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnsie View Post
    To be fair those license agreements don't mean anything to anyone. Nobody even reads them lol. Most people just do whatever they want on their computer and are happy with that. And they always have the freedom to not use that operating system if they don't want to be 'limited'.
    The fact you don't know the law is no excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by piousp View Post
    I disagree. License is something you accept or have, and in our world it implies a legal responsability. Maybe a lot of windows users have never read the license, and they could care less. But THATS NOT THE POINT. In fact, i think you are violating your own freedom by not reading the license.
    Yes, the law is enforced as long as it is valid, even if you don't know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnsie View Post
    No, I am saving time by not reading the license. It's not that big a deal because they are not enforced anyway. I'm not going to get into a troll fight with you guys. So let's just agree to disagree and move on.
    Yes you are saving time, by renouncing at your freedom. You think you are safe, but you are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icehuck View Post
    Those license agreements do mean something in terms of law. The GNU license has been tested in court and is upheld.
    This is good news, GNU licenses finally tested in court.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsali View Post
    I read the licenses. I never click accept without reading what I am accepting.

    I've never found them to be restrictive.
    Oh they are: you can not use one copy on more than one computer, even if you want to transfer it from an older to a newer one, you are limited on the number of processors your computer can have to use it, you are limited to how many connection can be made at a time to your computer, you are limited to how many hardware upgrades can you make to your computer before MS programs and OS's cease to function.

    Quote Originally Posted by karellen View Post
    nobody forces the user to buy (or to use) windows. it's a business like so many others; and about the anti-freedom and not being open sourced...well most people don't care. for them computers are just tools, not credos, not ideologies. not everyone has the time, the willingness and the passion to fiddle with things so irrelevant to them as programs and operating systems. I've used Linux since 2003, but not because I hate Microsoft or Windows but because I like diversity, change and I wanted to find out more; it's just an alternative, not a religion. at least for me
    Yes, nobody forces now to buy/use windows, but it was a time when the price was included on new computers, even if they came without windows . And Microsoft is exactly against that diversity you speak of: they want only Windows on computers, and only MS Office, no one else should use anything else, and that is their credo and ideology, and maybe they don't have the time, but for sure they have the willingness and passion to fiddle with such things worldwide...
    Last edited by Liviu-Theodor; February 3rd, 2009 at 08:39 AM.
    The Odor
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending small a degree of it. -- Thomas Jefferson
    Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD.

  7. #47
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    I am not an accountant; I don't understand tax law, I haven't even done my own taxes for the last 10 years. So do I care that the tax laws are published and publicly available? Would I be just as happy if the IRS calculated what I owe in a "black box" and just released a mysterious figure to me? Clearly, no; because I know that even if I don't understand how my tax figures came to be, I know that I can hire someone independent to calculate it for me using publicly available laws.
    I don't accept your analogy because I have no choice about paying taxes. I do not get to weigh the value of that return against the service I'm getting.

    However, with any OTHER item that I am free to choose if I want to use it, I can weigh that out; Do I think that this piece of closed source software offers enough value for what it costs me?

    In the case of many Microsoft and other closed source programs, YES they DO offer superior value.

    But you ask people if software is important and they act like you're some kind of geek weirdo. What is a computer if not software?
    A computer is a tool or appliance that performs a service. Most don't care HOW. They DON'T differentiate between the software and hardware. They DON'T care where the CPU or hard disk is located or how they work.

    It's about like asking if people care about the metallurgy that went into making a screwdriver. They don't - they just want to use the tool.
    Last edited by tsali; February 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 AM.

  8. #48
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Liviu-Theodor View Post
    Originally Posted by rickyjones View Post
    I'm interested - how exactly does Microsoft crush freedom? What kind of freedom are you discussing? Interesting concept, I'd like to see the points.

    Thanks,
    Richard

    Microsoft limits use of its software, if you are upgrading the hardware of your PC. Maybe the installed Windows "thinks" that it is installed on another computer, and does not work any more, and forces you to buy another copy. Or maybe you want a newer computer and use the older MS software but you are not allowed to do that: in their vision, you should buy a new MS license, even your older computer is "put to rest", so to speak.
    1. "does not work anymore" - Like when you perform a motherboard upgrade and it thinks that it has been copied to a new computer and asks you to re-activate it? It still works.
    2. Your older software can be installed on your newer computer as long as the old computer is no longer using it. It's in the EULA if I recall correctly.

    As for being unable to use, for example the Home edition, on more than one processor - this is a known limitation to get people to use the professional versions. I don't agree with this but this is not limiting your use of your hardware - you can always get the version that you need for your PC.

    Thanks,
    Richard
    I use both Windows and Linux. Is that a crime? || Ubuntu User # 16597

  9. #49
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by lykwydchykyn View Post
    I think you draw a false dichotomy here; software freedom doesn't have to be important on the level of religion or personal freedoms to be important. And as for the "average person"... since when is public apathy a measure of the importance of a cause?

    It's funny, if you ask people if "computers" are important to our lives these days, most people would agree they are. Computers hold your bank account, your medical record, your voter registration, and your tax information. They calculate your paycheck, your credit card bill, your utility bills, and your taxes. For a lot of us, they hold our work, our hobbies, our family photos and movies, our music collections, movies, and games. Where I work most people sit at a computer 8 hours a day, and what they're doing is putting data into a computer.

    But you ask people if software is important and they act like you're some kind of geek weirdo. What is a computer if not software? Does the hard drive or processor really make a difference? Does it matter to you what kind of CPU is tallying the vote you cast in the last election? Or does it matter more what software is tallying those votes?

    Here's a thought: does anyone expect computers (and therefore software) to have *less* of an impact on our daily lives for the next 25 years?

    I am not an accountant; I don't understand tax law, I haven't even done my own taxes for the last 10 years. So do I care that the tax laws are published and publicly available? Would I be just as happy if the IRS calculated what I owe in a "black box" and just released a mysterious figure to me? Clearly, no; because I know that even if I don't understand how my tax figures came to be, I know that I can hire someone independent to calculate it for me using publicly available laws.

    Software freedom isn't an idealistic cause for me, it's not a religion; it's just a feature, and one that I've come to value highly because I have found that it has tangible pragmatic benefits.
    Superior +1. Finally someone bring the discussion to the original topic.
    We are not talking about prices or productivity. We are not talking about whether or not the people care about the licenses they are "accepting". Heck, this is not even about you have the freedom of choosing any other OS over MS Windows.

    P.S. By the way, since english is not my 1st language, please correct me if i write something wrong. This will help me improve my english
    Ubuntu Printer Support | Restricted Formats
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  10. #50
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    Re: Microsoft/Windows - anti-freedom

    I will give you 3 advantages in using Windows XP
    and not Ubuntu 8.10.

    1) Skype does not work on Ubuntu - yet.
    2) My favourite game Soldier of fortune II runs only on Windows XP
    - or does it?
    3) Fiddle with entries in mstab to view other partitions and hard drives
    is a pain with Ubuntu
    - very satisfying when it works.

    Cannot think of any more. Otherwise can do everything with Ubuntu 8.10.
    Well done Mark Shuttleworth for assembling a Linux distribution that I can handle.

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