miscommunications

[Teroedni]

I'm afraid I don't understand how the Doc is not competing against the Official Wiki. I absolutely see the benefit of taking useful docs from the forums and placing them on a wiki...I just don't see at all why you need a separate wiki, regardless of whether or not you cross-link. In fact, the cross-linking thing sounds like something that would impact efficiency.

I have not tried to create a competition.
But the Gwos doc is just so much better and easier to navigate in than the Wiki.
Why is this so bad?. Theres nothing stopping you from copy our wiki or vice versa.
I cant se any bad in documentation building up.


Is it only the wiki team who got this right or?

[az]

I have not tried to create a competition.
But the Gwos doc is just so much better and easier to navigate in than the Wiki.
Why is this so bad?. Theres nothing stopping you from copy our wiki or vice versa.
I cant se any bad in documentation building up.


Is it only the wiki team who got this right or?

The point is that the documentation on the ubuntu wiki serves *all* of the ubuntu community. People often go there before they try the forums or mailing lists.

An effort should be made to record the useful documentation that the forums produce on-the-fly and put it where the rest of the community can use it. The current project that the forum wants to adopt kills any effort from the stuff getting directly onto the wiki. You really have to be a forum member to know about that project.

Of course, no one is stopping anyone from cutting and pasting the documentation but it seems to me that what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation.

A lot of people can pitch in. Their efforts should be guided to the official site of documentation first. That goes with the principle of being the official forums, right?

No, the wiki team do not only have the right to this help, but they should get it by default. Give back to the community you represent before giving to someone else.

At the very least, there should be a forum project that runs in parallel to this private one, so that people who want to help (and not just those who are "in" and who have gotten secretly asked to be part of an elustrious team) can contribute to the wiki. For what reason was that effort canned?

[kassetra]

An effort should be made to record the useful documentation that the forums produce on-the-fly and put it where the rest of the community can use it.

Funny, that is exactly what the doc does. It's our knowledgebase.

The current project that the forum wants to adopt kills any effort from the stuff getting directly onto the wiki.

Why? Have all the wiki people disappeared?

You really have to be a forum member to know about that project.

No, actually. We have the doc pasted in announcements, signatures, and I'll stick a link somewhere on here too, just for the casual user to grab - so that anyone that even glances at the forums can see the knowledgebase.

Of course, no one is stopping anyone from cutting and pasting the documentation but it seems to me that what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation.

A lot of people can pitch in. Their efforts should be guided to the official site of documentation first. That goes with the principle of being the official forums, right?

Hmm... Ok, we're the official forums, but our knowledgebase is a third party effort. Well that's contradictory.

And saying that our storage facility works against the community is absurd - it's our knowledgebase, a logical extension of the work we do.

Give back to the community you represent before giving to someone else.

We are. We're giving back to all of the users that have ever lost the thread they were looking for.

there should be a forum project that runs in parallel to this private one, so that people who want to help (and not just those who are "in" and who have gotten secretly asked to be part of an elustrious team) can contribute to the wiki.

This is a forum project. Doc is the forum knowledgebase; it is not a private project.

[az]

Funny, that is exactly what the doc does. It's our knowledgebase.

Clearly, "our" should read "ubuntu's"!

Why? Have all the wiki people disappeared?

No, you are snubbing them. Great teamwork.

No, actually. We have the doc pasted in announcements, signatures, and I'll stick a link somewhere on here too, just for the casual user to grab - so that anyone that even glances at the forums can see the knowledgebase.

Right. Like what I said.... If you are not on the forums...

Hmm... Ok, we're the official forums, but our knowledgebase is a third party effort. Well that's contradictory.

The wiki is one, the forums are two and the other site is three. Third party.

And saying that our storage facility works against the community is absurd - it's our knowledgebase, a logical extension of the work we do.

You need to read the more of the whole sentence. Here it is:

"what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation"

We are. We're giving back to all of the users that have ever lost the thread they were looking for.

...and not to any other ubuntu users.

This is a forum project. Doc is the forum knowledgebase; it is not a private project.

It is not part of the ubuntu community and has not made anny effort to be. Is it on the official website. Has it even asked Canonical for the permission to use the Trademark?

[KingBahamut]

Andrew - third-party source of documentation.

The Doc itself is not just a third party source of documentation. Again all you see is something to go against the Wiki. I see a collection of data , some that may duplicate the wiki, other data that doesnt. Its existence will only be forced down because I choose it. Are you taking the rights I have to express myself, to allow others to express themselves , away?

Not very Humanistic , Zajak. You my dear friend sound like a person trying to take choice away.

Freedom is not about Manipulation, Control, or taking choices away. Its about giving the user choice and alternative. You simply are so clouded in your judgement to see it, that its beyond you.

Right. Like what I said.... If you are not on the forums...

A simple google search breeds a number of blogs and other resources OUTSIDE the forums that refrence the doc. Shall I post all the documentation I have that shows how many OUTSIDE referals I get on the doc? Is 110,000 page views in just over a month the sign of something thats only known by a select few on the forum?

No, you are snubbing them. Great teamwork.

I have made a marked number of statements, requests, and even asking what I can do, to both mdke(mattheweast) and Mark shuttleworth himself. I dont call that snubbing. I try to amend my communications with the Doc/Wiki team. Watch it azz when you accuse people of not doing things, when people as myself are already trying to make the situation more liveable. You yourself exacerbate the problem by speaking without knowing first.

--

I think your initial attempts to "building" bridges may or may not have been ones of success. Largely because thats what the users see, is a Official member that has had very little interaction with the Community as a whole , at least on the forum level, coming in and making what they feel are demands about how things are run, and what is a wasted effort and what isnt (remember Matthew, bad choice of words not meaning, you should be careful with that). It is the very nature of human being to question such things. I admire your attempts at achieving effeciency. It is just here in this area, that I feel in my own interest its not nessecary. I wouldnt have the forums backing me -- The users, The Moderators, The Admins themselves if I thought that your brand of effeicency was needed. I dont feel it is. I simply aggree to disaggree with you. The site as a whole , for its living on a crappy Fedora Core 3 install on a Duron 900 with 256 megs of ram, is if anything someone of an aspect of pride for me. Ive had over 80,000 hits on it since I put the wiki up (this has just barely hit a 30 run time, in 30 days that much traffic isnt bad for a site for all intents and purposes isnt largely known by others than just the Forums). I dont see that as a wasted effort, which Im aware in your evidence was a bad choice of words rather than its actual meaning. So hes going to live on.

You have liscencing issues with it, I understand that, I have been more than willing to correct such things in an attempt to facilitate your ways and means. Just I as run links to already existing content onto your own wiki. Ulitmately I would desire to create large amounts of such cross linking but I think its if anything premature to state that kind of intent based on what you want to do with it.

You have desires of me to perform certain tasks, just ask.

[kassetra]

Informative comparison. Thanks. One clarification...what happens if the original author does not want her or his material on the Doc?

it doesn't go - we're not forcing people to post here on the forums, either.

of course - for the most part - everyone that has contributed to the forums and written a howto/etc. has been very enthusiastic about their work going into our knowledgebase.

[macgyver2]

it doesn't go - we're not forcing people to post here on the forums, either.

of course - for the most part - everyone that has contributed to the forums and written a howto/etc. has been very enthusiastic about their work going into our knowledgebase.

As I expected...but the option has to be there for the handful who aren't.

[KingBahamut]

That issue goes back to a concept of what liscense the Forums run under, does it not?

[kassetra]

Clearly, "our" should read "ubuntu's"!

No, I meant OURS. As in the FORUMS.
We have users, not ubuntu developers, here on the forum. USERS write posts and threads here - therefore, it is NOT "ubuntu's."

The wiki is one, the forums are two and the other site is three. Third party.

Nope. Forums/Doc = one source, one project.

You need to read the more of the whole sentence. Here it is:

"what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation"

...and not to any other ubuntu users.

It is not part of the ubuntu community and has not made anny effort to be. Is it on the official website. Has it even asked Canonical for the permission to use the Trademark?

It is part of the ubuntu community as much as the forums are - there is no separation between the forum and it's knowledgebase. period.

[manicka]

it doesn't go - we're not forcing people to post here on the forums, either.

of course - for the most part - everyone that has contributed to the forums and written a howto/etc. has been very enthusiastic about their work going into our knowledgebase.

I also inform the author through the discussion on the thread. No one has objected so far and as kass has said, are enthusiastic about its inclusion.