Has anyone else noticed that the big wig dudes are (bad word here)

[Mike54]

I will agree the more intelligently a question is presented, the easier it will be to answer.

However there are those times when a user's level of experience may not allow the question to be framed as well as some would like. Does that mean the question, or the person asking it, are any less valid? When the level of Ubuntu experience also determines the validity of a person's question, I think something is seriously wrong.

I appreciate the fact there are so many people here with so much knowledge. Collectively, they gave me the confidence to explore the freedom to choose the operating system I use. And each day, I learn a bit more. I hope the time will come when I will be able to help others as much as I have been helped. What I have been able to gain from others is valuable enough to make me want to pay it forward. Isn't that what these forums are all about? Or is it really me that seems to have lost the plot?

I just hope I never get to the point where the nature of my own responses to others begins to sound demeaning, dismissive or condescending. Because I think that is when I will have lost sight of what the spirit of Ubuntu is all about and will have become just another Linux snob.

[doas777]

Originally Posted by scorp123 Intelligent questions produce intelligent answers. That's all there is to say.

I have to disagree. the threads that have "Help!!!" as a title and a terrible description, get far better results than the ones i draft extensively and provide copious documentation on.
Ie: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=851626
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1123839

in fact it seems like the more intelligently you ask the question, the fewer the worthwhile responses you get.

[scorp123]

Originally Posted by doas777 I have to disagree. the threads that have "Help!!!" as a title and a terrible description

I for example ignore those. So do many others here whom I'd attest a high level of knowledge. So no idea who gets attracted by such threads ... Many knowledgable people definitely stay away from such threads.

So I have to disagree with you.

And quantity does not equal quality. Just because you added a ton of logs doesn't necessarily mean that it's useful. It may just as well be overkill or not be related at all to the problem and then reading all that stuff would be a pain.

[doas777]

Originally Posted by scorp123 It may just as well be overkill or not be related at all to the problem and then reading all that stuff would be a pain.

my point exactly. Unfortunately not all problems can be summed up with "no audio in flash". in these cases, it seems favorable to pretend to be stupid, and let everyone drag the diagnostic information out of me, rather than to provide it up front.

[scorp123]

Originally Posted by Mike54 However there are those times when a user's level of experience may not allow the question to be framed as well as some would like.

Well ... writing in proper English for example would be a good start. That's one of the minimum things I ask for. So if you know proper English then you are hopefully also capable of formulating your question and/or describing your problem in such a way so that I who cannot sit in front of your screen get a chance of grasping what is going wrong. That's one characteristic of an "intelligent question": people who are willing to help get a chance to understand what you are talking about. Is that asking too much? I don't think so. Even if you are a total beginner and don't really know or care to know how exactly your OS works --I don't ask for that-- but you should be able to at least write in a proper language.

I just randomly picked a thread .... :
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...31#post8009331

I don't mean to be insulting ... but that OP does not ask his question in an intelligent way.

1. horrible English
2. poor description of the problem
3. those who want to help have to guess what even the problem is in the first place

So ... that was an example of NOT asking in an intelligent way, IMHO.


Another thread ... randomly selected:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...35#post8096135

So yes, the problem description is there in the title .... But honestly: Having to read the first posting is asking for too much. No punctuation. Horrible writing style, the posting is full of irrelevant bits. It would have been easier to read if OP there had focused on the problem instead of adding lots of "chatter".

Don't get me wrong. Again: I don't mean to insult anyone. But: For me English is an acquired language. I had to learn it. So having to decypher proper English is already putting a "CPU% load" on my brain cells ... having to decypher such postings is like reading a totally foreign language and makes my CPU% load go through the roof ... e.g. I get a headache from reading such stuff. And yes, that posting was even "harmless" compared to things that other people post.

So that posting too wasn't exactly "intelligent" IMHO. It did contain some technical info yes, but the bad writing style basically makes sure that people like myself will stay out of that thread.


Counter-example ... Randomly picked from my list of subscribed threads. Here an OP who IMHO asked his question in an intelligent way:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=616707

Clear descriptions. Clear wish list of things that should be included in the solution. Proper English. Easy to read. No swearing, no hysteria, just the facts. A bit further down OP gives more clarifications of what he does not want ("... Not quite what I had in mind.") or really does want (" ... Getting warmer here, though it's still a lot of CLI stuff. I'd rather use a GUI tool ... ")

So yes, that's "asking question in an intelligent way" IMHO. Now see what I mean?

And again my apologies, I didn't mean to do any "finger-pointing" here. I am not calling anyone "stupid" here or anything like that. The examples above were just that ... examples for the sake of discussion. OK?

Originally Posted by Mike54 When the level of Ubuntu experience also determines the validity of a person's question, I think something is seriously wrong.

I never said that. See above.

Originally Posted by Mike54 I just hope I never get to the point where the nature of my own responses to others begins to sound demeaning, dismissive or condescending. Because I think that is when I will have lost sight of what the spirit of Ubuntu is all about and will have become just another Linux snob.

Well ... there are two kind of "newcomers" aka "noobs". Noob type #1 is the one who asks questions in an intelligent way and who is willing to learn a thing or two. I never had any trouble with that kind of "newcomer".

Type #2 "noob" is the one who complains about almost everything. And no matter what you tell them, it's always your fault, the "product is broken" (product ???? A free Linux distro?) and best of all: Some of those guys will treat you as if you owed them anything. "I am your customer -- SUPPORT ME. RIGHT NOW." Customer??? On a forum for a free Linux distro?? Yes, I was getting postings like that e.g. on the Mint forum. Private messages even. Lots of them. Not that I really care. But if you ask for help on a free forum but treat the ones who volunteer to help you like sh** you have it coming sooner or later and condescending comments (and even flame wars) are bound to happen.

So much for defending the snobs

[scorp123]

Originally Posted by doas777 my point exactly. in these cases, it seems favorable to pretend to be stupid, and let everyone drag the diagnostic information out of me, rather than to provide it up front.

I see.

[Mike54]

Originally Posted by scorp123 Well ... writing in proper English for example would be a good start. That's one of the minimum things I ask for.

Thanks for sharing. And please do try to have a nice life.

[scorp123]

Originally Posted by Mike54 And please do try to have a nice life.

ha ha, funny. I just tried to explain what I meant with the "intelligent question" bit, that's all.

Please try to read and understand stuff before going sarcastic on other people (that in turn would help them to have "a nice life" ... )

[ConXtionS]

Originally Posted by scorp123 ha ha, funny. I just tried to explain what I meant with the "intelligent question" bit, that's all. Please try to read and understand stuff before going sarcastic on other people (that in turn would help them to have "a nice life" ... )

Mr Scorp Sir,

I have already thrown away two replies because I was simply too angry in them.

While I tried to make light of your reply to me ... Something reguarding did I ask an "intelligent question"... the fact is your words angered and hurt me personally.

5 years ago I was a hard working person who by all accounts was intelligent. Then this disease got ahold of me and I am now disabled. I cant work, my family has suffered for years watching my slow decline as well as financialy... Many days it is the best I can do to get out of bed and not drool on myself. My brother has moved in with my wife and I to help care for me.

I have a bet with my friend for 50 dollars that I cant make a linux machine watch TV and serve it to others I camp with. My friend Eric accomplished the same task in less than a day on a windows machine.

Now I know the bet is just to get my mind working on something, and I also know that many of the questions I ask are repetitive and sometimes nonsensical, but they are my questions....

I served my country for most of my life, I have bled not only for my freedom but for most of the free worlds....

Im am appauled that my wanting to learn LINUX and asking STUPID questions is beneath you, and your fellow linux buddies. I was just trying to learn and make friends....

I am sorry that my language (which is perfectly acceptable in my church) offends so many of you....

at least the people I have dealth with in the windows community NEVER made me feel less of a man because I was forced to ask noob like questions...

Several Linux users have....

just my two cents

Jim

[ConXtionS]

Originally Posted by rmccutchan Here is an excellent place to start: http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/index_main.html BTW-Did I mention the cost?

Hello sir,

Im sorry I skipped your post before. Thank you for the link, I have downloaded and read the PDF. However it has nothing at all helpful (as far as I can tell) that will help me fix the linux tv thing. I agree it is a nicely organized and explained basic command set however...

I am in the fortunate group that has alot of stuff to play with, so I currently have 5 computers up stairs all trying to run one form of linux or the other. The computers are from a couple years old to one old clunker IBM with win98 that simply wont die.

Now I will admit that all my stuff could be FLUKES, not likely but possible. Most of the machines wont even fully boot. Errors such as "closing devive SR-0 failed retrying" thats one of my favorites to just plain black screens have come with most of my tests. The few that do never seem to make it past the first set of upgrades.

Ubuntu I must admit did make it that far, I even have a PPC version running on an old Powerbook mac that I have dested for years.

So that is how I choose ubuntu, of the ones that worked Ubuntu seemed to be the best and had what I thought would be a nice support community.

Now .... If I use a certian dvd drive, and I hold my nose right mythbuntu will install. If I dont use that one type of drive I get the error closing device thing. And to be honest, I have made some progress getting mythbuntu to run. But its nothing compared to the windows versions I have seen and used.

I am glad that you have found such a good replacement source for what you do. And I admit that if all I wanted to do (not saying this is all you do because clearly your knowledge of photography is beyond my wildest dreams) was to get on the internet play a few games (games is another linux sore spot, as well as ventrillo) and use the INCREDIBLE office suite (that I agree is at least as good if not better than Bills Office) I too would be a happy camper....

I can get 9.04 to do all those things and from what I have seen it does the basic stuff as well as any of my windows machines. Heck for all I know it might do it better but I am only willing to agree to as well at this point.

However, the things I need to do or want to do are different than what you have found. I want to talk on ventrillo because the stupid space game I play on uses it. I dont want to have to become a OS GURU just to do something as simple as talk. I want to play my game which may or may not be playable using WINE... But again I dont want to be a GURU I just want Eve to play.... I want to be able to download and capture TV, change the format and store it and then hand it out to others to watch... Something that has been NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE for *ME* to accomplish so far.....

My gripe if I suppose I have one is that if you are a noob, and you are trying HARD to make any of these things work you are not treated very well by the FEW smart people who may be willing to help you. To be honest, its mostly people just like you who kindly hand out that booklet and tell me how great thier stuff works...... I am not trying to be mean.... I realize that your heart is in the right place... but from the STUPID GUYS point of view you are saying "Hey look I have all this stuff running and you can't" and then turning the knife just a little bit more with your, "hey read this book before you ask any other stupid questions."

So, again while I appreciate the fact that you can do great things with pictures in Linux that you couldnt or didnt do with windows, it simply doesnt help me much. Now if I was trying to take the red out of my dogs eyes you would be BANG ON I suppose. lol

Anyhow... I wanted you to know I did see your post, and I would love for all of us around Lafayette to meet, tell lies about our wives, and share the secrets we have learned the past month or two. Heck that is why I am in the ubuntu group, that is why I am asking the questions.....

But please dont make me feel even dumber by bragging what you have managed to do with your system until the smoke clears out from mine????? Ok Bro????

thanks for taking the time to respond, and I do want to meet up... One of us is going to have to be the GO TO guy to get things started.... aint gonna be me tho....

be well bro

Jim