[SOLVED] Ubuntu Idea Storm?

[sicofante]

Originally Posted by aysiu People can ask for what they want.

As long as they're not shut up by someone else...

They may just not get what they want.

Only the really naive expect that when asked to vote for the most popular feature.

Someone can say, "Hey, I want Skype to be included in Ubuntu by default." It's not going to happen.

Why not? Maybe Mark decides someday it's worth it because two million of his users ask for it.

If that person understood Ubuntu's philosophy (commitment to free and open source software), she'd know it wasn't possible.

As with closed drivers?

Someone else could propose that Kubuntu, Ubuntu, and Xubuntu all be on one CD. If that person knew the CD is only 700 MB, she would know that just can't happen.

But a DVD might put them all in one place.

Even if an idea sounds good in theory, someone has to make it happen.

That's what developers are for, right?

Either a developer has to take interest in doing the dirty work or someone else who is interested has to pay the developer to take interest in doing the dirty work. Right now, the main "someone else" in the Ubuntu world is Mark Shuttleworth. If you want to start paying developers to do stuff, then you can start demanding they do what you want. Otherwise, they will do what Mark Shuttleworth says... or what they themselves take an interest in.

So there's no real reason to ask for ideas? Or is it?

As 23meg tried to explain in General Feasibility Guidelines for Gutsy Proposals, Ubuntu has certain principles and goals. It is not all things for all people (no piece of software is). If people want something other than Ubuntu, they're free to choose something else.

But if they're asked and they still want a different Ubuntu, maybe Mark or someone else decides it's time for a change.

They're even free to fork Ubuntu and make their own version of Ubuntu that "listens to the people" and is fully democratic in its development decisions.

It doesn't sound very polite: "Tell us your ideas, if we don't like them, go do your own stuff!!"

Ubuntu has never been a democracy from its inception. And not every idea has equal validity. Listening to suggestions doesn't mean complying with all suggestions.

But it means letting people say them freely.

An idea pool is not the same as an implementation pool. It is simply an idea pool.

An idea pool is not a validation check for pre-thought goals. I already said that's quite OK, but then just call it validation check, not idea pool.

[earobinson]

Originally Posted by sicofante Why not? Maybe Mark decides someday it's worth it because two million of his users ask for it.

Chances are that he would recommend a fork, or maybe even fork him self look at gnubuntu

Originally Posted by sicofante That's what developers are for, right?

Most devs are unpaid for there work. I would love to be paid to program for floss.

I also thought it was important to point out marks IRC nick sabdfl (self appointed benevolent dictator for life)

Originally Posted by sicofante As with closed drivers?

Ubuntu was founded stating that they would use closed drivers in order to make the software work.

[aysiu]

Originally Posted by sicofante As long as they're not shut up by someone else...

If your thread is closed, it means discussion on the topic is done. If your thread is thrown in the jail or deleted, then it's being "shut up."

Only the really naive expect that when asked to vote for the most popular feature.

And you think there aren't a lot of naive people out there?

Why not? Maybe Mark decides someday it's worth it because two million of his users ask for it.

Then Mark will have a lot of people jumping ship.

As with closed drivers?

Ubuntu has always included closed source firmware since the days of Warty. It wasn't some compromise that came along later. It was there since the beginning. Ubuntu is still committed to open source and free software and will use it whenever there is a version available for the same task. Since there are plenty of open source VOIP clients out there, there's no reason to include Skype by default.

But a DVD might put them all in one place.

And a DVD already has. You can buy it on Amazon or download it. I believe it's also included with certain books on Ubuntu.

That's what developers are for, right?

Yes, and that's why I explained about what motivates developers--either personal interest or money, not demands or a popularity vote on a feature.

So there's no real reason to ask for ideas? Or is it?

Of course there is. A developer or group of developers may see your blueprint and then take an active interest in the idea. Or Mark might see it and say, "Hey, I know no one wants to do this, but I think it's a great idea, so I'm going to pay you to do it." Ideas are just that--ideas. You can't come up with every idea yourself, but you may take an interest in an idea someone else came up with.

But if they're asked and they still want a different Ubuntu, maybe Mark or someone else decides it's time for a change.

Then Ubuntu will be forked, which is perfectly legitimate.

It doesn't sound very polite: "Tell us your ideas, if we don't like them, go do your own stuff!!"

I didn't put it that way. A lot of politeness has to do with how you phrase your sentiments, not the sentiments themselves. For example, it is polite to say, "Would you mind not smoking here, please?" It is not polite to say, "Put out your damn cigarette now, or I'll put it out for you!"

Compare these two approaches:

Microsoft and Apple: "We will implement what we want when we want to. You have no say in the features of our operating systems. If you don't like the way it is now, don't buy it. We won't offer you any similar alternatives to Windows or OS X, though."

Linux: "We will implement what we want when we want to. If you are a developer, you can help contribute code, and we might incorporate it into our own software. If you don't like the way our software is, you can fork it and make your own off the code we already have. You can pay us money to implement a feature through the creation of a bounty. And if you don't like what we put out, you can also use any of our competitors' products (other Linux distros)."

You tell me which approach is "more polite."

But it means letting people say them freely.

And I've already said that allowing people to keep talking about an idea that's not going to happen is disingenuous. It would be like a parent saying, "You children spend the next hour deciding where to celebrate Nicola's birthday. Then we'll go." Afterwards, the children have decided to go to Buster's, and the parent says, "How interesting. Well, I'd already decided an hour ago that we're going to Chuck E. Cheese's."

Wouldn't it have made more sense for the parent to just have told the children to begin with that Chuck E. Cheese was the celebration location without that hour of discussion?

An idea pool is not a validation check for pre-thought goals. I already said that's quite OK, but then just call it validation check, not idea pool.

An idea pool is a pool of ideas. If an idea isn't going to be implemented, there's no point in continued discussion about it. Maybe if Ubuntu does take a different direction, old "closed" ideas could be revived, but Ubuntu is still on its normal course for Gutsy Gibbon.

[sicofante]

Call me stubborn, but I still don't see solid arguments from your side against letting people freely discuss, vote and whatever, after it's you who asked for ideas.

Originally Posted by aysiu If your thread is closed, it means discussion on the topic is done. If your thread is thrown in the jail or deleted, then it's being "shut up."

Closing a thread is definitely shutting up people. If someone can't speak any further on a given topic, s/he's being shut up, no matter how pink you want to paint it.

And you think there aren't a lot of naive people out there?

I think there are lots of clever people out there, and you should never assume the opposite when deploying any type of popular consultation.

Then Mark will have a lot of people jumping ship.

He'll deal with it.

Ubuntu has always included closed source firmware since the days of Warty. It wasn't some compromise that came along later. It was there since the beginning. Ubuntu is still committed to open source and free software and will use it whenever there is a version available for the same task. Since there are plenty of open source VOIP clients out there, there's no reason to include Skype by default.

Maybe you believe Skype's features are perfectly implemented in open source alternatives. Many people believe the Gimp is a good alternative to Photoshop and there are even people who believe open source drivers for Nvidia are good enough. The point is, if you ask people's ideas/opinions, you must be open to hear every opinion/idea. Otherwise you're cheating.

And a DVD already has. You can buy it on Amazon or download it. I believe it's also included with certain books on Ubuntu.

Then you just tell the poster and you're done. No need to shut him up.

Yes, and that's why I explained about what motivates developers--either personal interest or money, not demands or a popularity vote on a feature.

If they're not motivated by demands or popularity of what their users want, I find it quite weird that they ask in first place...

Of course there is. A developer or group of developers may see your blueprint and then take an active interest in the idea. Or Mark might see it and say, "Hey, I know no one wants to do this, but I think it's a great idea, so I'm going to pay you to do it." Ideas are just that--ideas. You can't come up with every idea yourself, but you may take an interest in an idea someone else came up with.

If you shut up ideas in these forums even before they're properly discussed not Mark nor the developers will get a chance to look at them.

Linux: "We will implement what we want when we want to. If you are a developer, you can help contribute code, and we might incorporate it into our own software. If you don't like the way our software is, you can fork it and make your own off the code we already have. You can pay us money to implement a feature through the creation of a bounty. And if you don't like what we put out, you can also use any of our competitors' products (other Linux distros)."

I don't see a place for an idea pool in that picture. But if you want to put one there, just don't forget once you ask for ideas, you better listen to them instead of shutting people up, or all your politeness will vanish in the air in a minute.

And I've already said that allowing people to keep talking about an idea that's not going to happen is disingenuous.

But you still fail to prove is harmful, while I've shown you how harmful it is to ask someone to shut up.

It would be like a parent saying, "You children spend the next hour deciding where to celebrate Nicola's birthday. Then we'll go." Afterwards, the children have decided to go to Buster's, and the parent says, "How interesting. Well, I'd already decided an hour ago that we're going to Chuck E. Cheese's."

That's a very interesting comparison. I understand the forum rulers are the adults and the users are the children... By the way, this looks an awful lot like this pool of ideas: developers will do what users demand... as long as users demand what developers had in mind beforehand. (Sounds absurd? It is.)

An idea pool is a pool of ideas. If an idea isn't going to be implemented, there's no point in continued discussion about it.

If you're not ready to at least think of developing the ideas that become more popular, regardless of your prejudices, then you're not talking about a pool of ideas. By the way, in that case, asking for votes on what you're willing to offer/develop is much more productive and fast.

Maybe if Ubuntu does take a different direction, old "closed" ideas could be revived, but Ubuntu is still on its normal course for Gutsy Gibbon.

Then why close them? Just let them die by themselves or let them evolve into who knows what. Don't kill creativity. Let alone in a "pool of ideas".


Maybe our problem is you might be talking about "I want Ubuntu to make my breakfast" sort of ideas, while I'm talking about "I want Ubuntu to think of pendrives the same the way human beings think of pendrives" or "I want every administration task to have a GUI" sort of ideas.

[aysiu]

Originally Posted by sicofante Call me stubborn, but I still don't see solid arguments from your side against letting people freely discuss, vote and whatever, after it's you who asked for ideas.

If all ideas were closed, then I'd see your point, but not all ideas are closed. Some get implemented and only because they were brought up in the first place.

You seem to subscribe to the idea that it's all or nothing. Either developers listen to and give consideration to every single idea thrown out there (no matter how illogical, unfeasible, or irrelevant to Ubuntu's philosophy it is) or it listens to no ideas thrown out there.

As it is, some ideas will be implemented, so the idea pool is a helpful tool for getting ideas.

You can call me stubborn, but I don't see how your arguments are any more "solid" than mine. I don't know of a single business, corporation, educational institution, or non-profit organization that considers all ideas and suggestions from anybody to be equally valid in terms of consideration and implementation.

[sicofante]

Originally Posted by aysiu If all ideas were closed, then I'd see your point, but not all ideas are closed. Some get implemented and only because they were brought up in the first place. You seem to subscribe to the idea that it's all or nothing. Either developers listen to and give consideration to every single idea thrown out there (no matter how illogical, unfeasible, or irrelevant to Ubuntu's philosophy it is) or it listens to no ideas thrown out there. As it is, some ideas will be implemented, so the idea pool is a helpful tool for getting ideas. You can call me stubborn, but I don't see how your arguments are any more "solid" than mine. I don't know of a single business, corporation, educational institution, or non-profit organization that considers all ideas and suggestions from anybody to be equally valid in terms of consideration and implementation.

Show me a single line in my arguments where I ask for consideration of ALL the ideas. I'm just asking you to not silence ANY idea. BECAUSE silencing a single idea based on YOUR ideas is against the very idea of a pool of ideas. That's much too simple logic to try to explain it further.

EDIT: I feel I'm hijacking this thread. Just let's get back to "why not vote?". I say it's more inline with the philosophy you're defending. Since only some ideas are considered "feasible", why not vote amongst them? Since you won't allow free flow of every possible idea, why not at least allow the ideas that have passed the filter to be voted by the users? Aren't the developers and Mark himself interested in developing what users better like first?

[aysiu]

Originally Posted by sicofante Show me a single line in my arguments where I ask for consideration of ALL the ideas. I'm just asking you to not silence ANY idea.

And I'm saying that if an idea is not even being considered to be implemented, there's no point in discussing it. You don't agree with that premise, but that's the basis for my argument that the unfeasible ideas be closed for now.

We have a fundamental difference in our assumptions.

We both agree there are ideas that are unfeasible for Ubuntu Gutsy. We both agree that ideas are good things. I think we both agree the developers shouldn't just do whatever users want, regardless of their own interests or monetary incentives (not sure you agree with me on this last point, though).

Where we disagree is in the value of discussing something that has already been decided against. I think it's a waste of time and keeps bumping up irrelevant ideas (and hence bumping down potentially relevant ones). You think discussion of any idea is valid, whether or not it could ever be implemented.

You also seem to think if an idea isn't valid that its thread will naturally die off. I've seen the opposite to be true. The more controversial an idea, the longer the thread gets. Perfectly valid ideas get a couple of posts saying

+1

and then they fade into obscurity, overpowered by ideas that will never get implemented but that keep getting bumped up because of arguments.

[sicofante]

Originally Posted by aysiu And I'm saying that if an idea is not even being considered to be implemented, there's no point in discussing it. You don't agree with that premise, but that's the basis for my argument that the unfeasible ideas be closed for now.

Why oh why does it need to be CLOSED? Especially after you add that "for now"?

We both agree there are ideas that are unfeasible for Ubuntu Gutsy. We both agree that ideas are good things. I think we both agree the developers shouldn't just do whatever users want, regardless of their own interests or monetary incentives (not sure you agree with me on this last point, though).

I absolutely agree on all of these (including the latter). The point is ONCE YOU ASK, you must listen. You can't go out and say, "hey guys, I want your ideas" and when you don't think they're right enough, you just close the discussion.

Where we disagree is in the value of discussing something that has already been decided against.

No one decided against properly dealing with pendrives, did they? No one has decided against developing better admin tools, did they? Again: the problem doesn't lie in the obvious, it lies in the border lines. The thing is once you decided to draw the lines yourself you take the risk of destroying a lot of potential. No risk is taken by letting people discuss til absurdity.

I think it's a waste of time and keeps bumping up irrelevant ideas (and hence bumping down potentially relevant ones). You think discussion of any idea is valid, whether or not it could ever be implemented.

Yes. Exactly. The idea itself might not be valid but discussion is, because it might lead to fruitful conclusions. It might enlighten other people, it might evolve into a better idea. You abort all those chances by deciding too soon.

You also seem to think if an idea isn't valid that its thread will naturally die off. I've seen the opposite to be true. The more controversial an idea, the longer the thread gets. Perfectly valid ideas get a couple of posts saying and then they fade into obscurity, overpowered by ideas that will never get implemented but that keep getting bumped up because of arguments.

Part of the FAs task should be combing the forums to find the ideas they believe will be easier to escalate in the next developers meetings. That has little to do with shutting people's mouth.

[maynoth]

wowzerz... I wonder if mark reads the forums... I would like to know his thoughts on a voting system for ubuntu... it seems to me to be inline with the philosophy of ubuntu...

[earobinson]

maybe like a digg this kind of button for the forums is what we need? I have never coded a vbullitin plugin so I have no clue how much work is needed for this.

That way people could look at the top dugg threads or just top dugg threads for a category.

That way we would get to vote, It would help the forum ambassadors a lot and it would not be to official.

Only for us it would have to be something to do with coffee.

Edit: Guess the plugin is not to hard since it would be something like this (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=122944). Or maybe this is enough.