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confused57, thank you very much for taking the time to investigate my claim. Once you get the the Documentation page it's not clear which link will take you to the install guide.
I really do think ubuntu is special, and I've been using it as my desktop distro since it first came out.
I'm hopeful that if the website is modified to make the documentation easier to find that it will help people.
Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by confused57
Dear dmann:Quote:
Originally Posted by dmann
Thank you for doing that. That is what I was going to suggest that you do.
I don't think you have and will get much support for your type of suggestion on this forum. Many posters here seem to be sort of satisfied with the status quo.
Most of the posters here are to young to remember the days when companies like IBM wrote hard bound paper documentations of all of their various o/s platforms as well as their applications (and no, I am not suggesting that anyone offer paper copies of their documentation) that were arranged in a heircharical order that made logical sense to anyone from the most elementary of computer users to the most advanced systems analyst. Let me note that the only other software developer that I ever saw that took pains similar to IBMs in documenting their software was a company called PDS (Parameter Driven Software) that developed accounting software packages for Unix based systems back in the early to mid 1980s.
Back in the old days of programming there used to be a theory in writing software and documentation for that software that was referred to as "the top down theory".
Somewhere along the way this great form of writing software and the supporting documentation was lost/abandoned (WHAT A SHAME).
Therefore, now most all of computer related software, etc. including internet website development has degenerated into a very poor shadow of the care and extreme thought that used to go into the computer software development process.
However for your comfort, let me say that I strongly believe that the developers of Ubuntu will eventually get around to doing a better/more logical/proper flowing documentation scheme for their O/S. Keep bugging them about it to see if we can speed up the process.
Thanks for your concern and good thought processes.
dmann, you do have a good point that it should be made as easy as possible for new users to find "easy to follow" instructions...it might not be so intuitive for absolute beginners to know which links to click first, it'll definitely take a little "trial & error".Quote:
Originally Posted by dmann
Hi all,
Recently the community contributed documentation was moved onto its own wiki on the documentation website. I'm interested in hearing your feedback about how the site could be improved, in terms of usability, look, and so on.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community
Thanks for your thoughts!
Matt
No replies in 4 days? That's terrible, c'mon let's hear your thoughts.
I think it's pretty good right now. Don't would change anything so far :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by mattheweast
I was getting tired of Win98 deteriorating over time and having to reinstall it every year to get the bugs out. But I've been trying for a week, nearly 10 hours a day, to make the switch to Ubuntu, and I have just about reached my limit for continual frustration.
The install was flawless, and the ease with which I could replace Office was encouraging. My real problem was a couple of Windows applications that I really needed to bring with me. So much of the last week has been spent on trying to get some form of virtual maching working. I've tried several. And nearly everything I've tried to do has required literally hours of combing the internet for scraps of information.
The problem with Linux ?
#1. Documentation
I expected a learning curve, but this is insane. There are two forms. One is written by kindergarten teachers and tells me absolutely nothing. The other is written by hackers and can only be understood by experineced hackers. Trying to learn this stuff is like moving to Zimbabwe and picking up the language. If Linux proponents really want to compete with Windows, someone needs to write some decent bridge material in real English.
#2. Forums
When people ask a sensible question like, "How do I transfer files between the Host and a VM Guest?" they get answers like "just install widget bubba with the thingamabob and configure it to meet your needs". Why do you do that?
#3. Attitude
Whenever someone levels a critique of Linux, the responses are usually one of the following:
a. It's free ... what did you expect?
b. Did you think it would be easy?
c. Microsoft sucks too
This leads me to believe that most Linux users must be in the 7th grade. Which explains the documentation problem mentioned earlier. The point is that Linux attempts to be a viable alternative to Windows. It certainly has that potential. What is lacking is not more development ... it is already a great system. What it needs is a more learner-friendly environment. Having the best system in the world is a useless accomplishment if the average person is unable to use it.
It doesn't have to be this hard.
You know you'll probably get flamed like a mofo, but I agree with alot of what you're saying. It's true.
what windows apps are you having trouble with?
As someone who writes documentation and used to teach high school English, I'm interested in what you would consider "decent bridge material." Do you have some examples you could link to of what "decent bridge material" is (doesn't have to be for Linux--any kind of software-related documentation will do)?Quote:
Originally Posted by David TAkle
Can you also provide examples of the kindergarten/hacker tutorials you've come across?
There's generally a sense in the documentation arena that if you don't like the way it's being done, improve it. Simply saying it is bad doesn't really help. Criticism has to be specific to make change, and even better than criticism is inspiration--write some good documentation yourself. You'd be surprised at how much you know.
I guess people figure if you know how to do VM stuff that you are savvy enough to install widget bubba with the thingamabob. If you don't understand, just ask for more details, "I'm sorry. That may be a good solution, but I have no idea what you just said. Can you give me a step by step of how to do that? I'm kind of a new user. Thanks." You'll find people on these forums will be quite accommodating to that kind of request expressed in that fashion.Quote:
#2. Forums
When people ask a sensible question like, "How do I transfer files between the Host and a VM Guest?" they get answers like "just install widget bubba with the thingamabob and configure it to meet your needs". Why do you do that?
Those are three typical responses, but there are d. and e. and f. and all the way to z. probably. My response is "quit whining and do something about it."Quote:
#3. Attitude
Whenever someone levels a critique of Linux, the responses are usually one of the following:
a. It's free ... what did you expect?
b. Did you think it would be easy?
c. Microsoft sucks too
And, in all fairness, the people who level "critiques" of Linux in these forums tend to have a pretty 7th grade attitude themselves. Rarely do you get a mature and even-handed critique. It's usually vitriolic flamebait. Read some examples here.
Like this? Or this, or this? There's plenty of it, and when you can't find the help you're looking for in prewritten documents, there's the forums and mailing lists and IRC channels full of people more than willing to help you with specific problems.Quote:
Trying to learn this stuff is like moving to Zimbabwe and picking up the language. If Linux proponents really want to compete with Windows, someone needs to write some decent bridge material in real English.
Maybe because that's what you should do to transfer files? If that's too vague for and you can't figure out what exactly to do, what the next steps you should be, you can always ask further. Did you?Quote:
When people ask a sensible question like, "How do I transfer files between the Host and a VM Guest?" they get answers like "just install widget bubba with the thingamabob and configure it to meet your needs". Why do you do that?
Quote:
Whenever someone levels a critique of Linux, the responses are usually one of the following:
This is just plain wrong. I've been on these forums for more than a year and I don't remember seeing this attitude even once. You may have seen it elsewhere; you won't see it here.Quote:
a. It's free ... what did you expect?
Did you? You're learning to use a new operating system. You should expect a few stumbling blocks at best.Quote:
b. Did you think it would be easy?
I don't see this given as an excuse for the shortcomings of Ubuntu / Linux here. We do have many people who think Microsoft products suck, along with many who are quite happy with them, but "Windows isn't any better" isn't really put forward as an excuse for Ubuntu's shortcomings.Quote:
c. Microsoft sucks too
You're wrong, we have people from all age groups.Quote:
This leads me to believe that most Linux users must be in the 7th grade.
It doesn't, obviously, and many people will take this as an offensive statement.Quote:
Which explains the documentation problem mentioned earlier.
It's not; averaging our endeavors solely to account for the criteria of the "average person", whoever they may be, will confine us to endless mediocrity, but in complete disregard of that fact, we have tens of thousands of non-technical users enjoying Ubuntu. Imagine yourself as an exception rather than a base for generalization for a moment.Quote:
Having the best system in the world is a useless accomplishment if the average person is unable to use it.
It's not too hard. Stick around, read some docs, ask questions (no matter how naive; they'll be welcome) and chances are you'll get it.Quote:
It doesn't have to be this hard.