My hopes for Mono+Jaunty

[gnomeuser]

Today Mono branches for 2.2[1], slated to come out in December, a target they are well on their way to meeting. The roadmap[2] puts 2.4 in April 2009, which some highly interesting planned features, most important will probably be MonoDevelop 2.0 with integrated debugging support (aside the normal things likce better coverage, bugfixes and performance increases)

I hope Ubuntu will aggressively adopt snapshots as they come out. Upstream has very good QA so stability can be expected to be good. The updates are timely and well tested. As such the risk from early adoption should be minimal. Unfortunately the delivery date for Jaunty is also late April so Mono 2.4 would have to enter at the branch time (should likely as with 2.2 be expect a month prior to release). After the branch point the churn is minimal so updates should be safe to issue and if a conflict occurs between the final release dates then a post release update would be very low risk. Not doing this would once again mean shipping an Ubuntu without the latest version of Mono which would be a shame.

Additionally I hope to see Monotorrent and Monsoon in the repos as well as Moonlight. The latter hopefully default in the install so Silverlight websites will work out of the box on Ubuntu. Outside having the ever increasing number of Silverlight pages working for users, Moonlight presents an interesting approach to GUI development for us on the desktop. Novell have already done some testing on this and it shows great promise in delivering very sexy looking applications which are also easy to create.

[1] http://lists.ximian.com/pipermail/mono-devel-list/2008-November/029629.html
[2] http://mono-project.com/Roadmap

[ShirishAg75]

I am not at all thrilled about mono for it could at any point have any patent issues or stuff like that. In fact the sore point has been that GNOME has been using quite a bit of Mono lately which is not good atleast from my perspective.

[directhex]

Upstream has very good QA

Upstream has terrible QA, which is why releases can take so long to come out (especially 2.0). Just take a peek at the patch set we've been forced to apply to previous releases.

And an unfortunate blocker on updating major things like Mono which are driven at the Debian end is the continued delay in the release of Debian Lenny. I'll mail upstream to make them aware of the Jaunty schedule - they may tag an RC build a little early to help us (the packagers mailing list was warned of 2.0 about half a week early)

If it makes you feel any better, Moonlight packages are prepared and ready for upload - I'm waiting for the imminent 1.0 release before doing so.

Monodevelop... well, we've been warned more than once not to put one of the 1.9 alphas into a stable release, so we've done as told. Once 2.0 is released "proper", packaging will start

Monsoon... well, packagers welcome, but we have a lot on our plate with Mono and Monodevelop and Moonlight, and the changes needed to every single Mono package following packaging restructure in out 2.0 packages (which will shrink Tomboy dependencies by about 20-40%)

[Half-Left]

I am not at all thrilled about mono for it could at any point have any patent issues or stuff like that. In fact the sore point has been that GNOME has been using quite a bit of Mono lately which is not good atleast from my perspective.

Mono doesn't come with GNOME or is part of GNOME(Tomboy is optional). I wish people would go and educated them selfs what Ubuntu use and GNOME use, Ubuntu doesn't = GNOME since they have pretty much no say.

Just so you all know.

Tomboy is a mono app and IS NOT a dependency with the GNOME build and is optional, you can remove it without removing any part of GNOME.

[plun]

Yup... I also hope so.

Miguel de Icazas PDC talk is up at Channel 9

http://channel9.msdn.com/pdc2008/PC54/

You need Silverlight for watching....):P


I cannot understand how the DRM content protection will be solved in Moonlight...:confused:

Maybe we must "offer" that....?

[gnomeuser]

Yup... I also hope so.

Miguel de Icazas PDC talk is up at Channel 9

http://channel9.msdn.com/pdc2008/PC54/

You need Silverlight for watching....):P


I cannot understand how the DRM content protection will be solved in Moonlight...:confused:

Maybe we must "offer" that....?

The same way we do everywhere else, it is implemented in the media decoder not Moonlight as such. Moonlight currently uses ffmpeg for the free codecs option or a set of licensed codecs supplied by Microsoft and ported by Novell (the latter closed source). I believe they are planning a port to GStreamer (at least Miguel has stated in a talk that Arron Bockover was doing the work).

Regardless, DRM is not a Moonlight problem, the support comes in the framework that is used to decode the media and as it is already known, DRM is entirely breakable. We support it today in a few formats, Moonlight does not add to or detract from the DRM problem, it merely adds support for the growing number of Silverlight websites and you even get gratis licensed codec support for use in websites (as paid for by Microsoft). I am very pleased that Linux users will not once again have to sit in the snow as we have done with Flash for years as Moonlight is a 100% proven compatible implementation, tested against the same set of conformance tests as Microsoft uses. I like that our users can access content on equal footing using only Free Software.

[directhex]

You need Silverlight for watching....):P

http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/pdc08/WMV-HQ/PC54.wmv

Or Moonlight 1.0, which is branched in SVN

Maybe we must "offer" that....?

Unless I hear massive demand to the contrary, Moonlight in Ubuntu will be linked against the Free codecs already provided in the distro (i.e. ffmpeg, or gstreamer if/when they port it to gstreamer). The MS codecs will not be supported without a rebuild. Perhaps I could package both as interchangeable, perhaps not.

[David A Knight]

I am not at all thrilled about mono for it could at any point have any patent issues or stuff like that. In fact the sore point has been that GNOME has been using quite a bit of Mono lately which is not good atleast from my perspective.

And how is Mono more vunerable to aleged patent infringment than any other open source software? Answer? It isn't. It is about time people dropped the patent infringment nonsense or nothing in open source would be done at all.

How much of GNOME has been using mono? We have Fspot, we have Tomboy, we have... errr, Banshee, which isn't part of GNOME, we have.... errr.... what? Nothing else that is officially part of GNOME comes to mind. Now if you put a developer hat on you have to think, why code in C when you can use C#, the difference is huge. C# is a big big win for maintainability and productivity. Yeah you can use Python or some other language (Not a fan of Python at all) but Mono and the languages its CLR supports is a very tempting option. Even if MS get awkward about the parts that are not ECMA standards who cares? GTK# and the other Linux/Unix related libraries that Mono encompasses has nothing to do with MS, the core CLR/C# are standards we can just work from there.

[David A Knight]

Upstream has terrible QA, which is why releases can take so long to come out (especially 2.0). Just take a peek at the patch set we've been forced to apply to previous releases.


Simple question, why haven't these patches been submitted to upstream? If these patches had to be applied to previous versions they should have been submitted, and so 2.0 should not require them. Something has broken down somewhere.


Monodevelop... well, we've been warned more than once not to put one of the 1.9 alphas into a stable release, so we've done as told. Once 2.0 is released "proper", packaging will start


Understandable to some extent, but having tracked trunk of Monodevelop from svn I'm not sure if that was the right decision as there were some great improvements in features and stability although in the past few weeks trunk has gone to a 2.0 dependency, but then it is now a 2.0 alpha rather than 1.9.

[zekopeko]

i hope this will all happen. as an observer i can only say that mono is really accelerating it's development IMO.
and there is great software out there based on mono. gnome-do FTW :D

[directhex]

Simple question, why haven't these patches been submitted to upstream? If these patches had to be applied to previous versions they should have been submitted, and so 2.0 should not require them. Something has broken down somewhere.

They're mostly fixes taken from post-2.0 Mono SVN. There is now dialogue between pkg-mono and upstream which wasn't previously there, but stable releases still have critical bugs in them that we need to fix and QA

Understandable to some extent, but having tracked trunk of Monodevelop from svn I'm not sure if that was the right decision as there were some great improvements in features and stability although in the past few weeks trunk has gone to a 2.0 dependency, but then it is now a 2.0 alpha rather than 1.9.

If upstream are telling us not to release an alpha in a stable OS, we'll respect that. I *KNOW* the 1.0 packages suck right now, I really do, but I don't like the alternative of ignoring Upstream warnings. That said, 2.0 should be final well in time for Jaunty

[sdowney717]

give me an example of a .net application I can run with mono on linux.
something I can download.

[gnomeuser]

give me an example of a .net application I can run with mono on linux.
something I can download.

Anything that depends on Mono in the repos. MonoDevelop, banshee, f-spot, gnome-do and many others are .NET apps, written in C#. They are compiled into the very same CLR as the Microsoft reference implementation uses. Mono lives up to the ECMA standard.

If you want a sample program not written specifically by Linux people, the MOMA code analyser will tell you if a given .NET application will run using Mono. Of which roughly 60% should do without any changes.

E.g. WinRickVoter, a small program that will submit votes for Rick Ashley as the best act ever in a MTV contest. Written in Windows, for the Microsoft implementation. No source code comes with it.. and yet, Mono runs it without a single problem. Just one small example.

http://www.bestactever.com/scripts/WinRickVoter.latest.zip

Novell are actively helping many companies to make their code able to run using Mono, they released tools to analysis the areas that Mono need to implement to get support as well as which areas the companies can change (e.g. embedding IE directly, which can be done with a wrapper instead that will embedded the gecko rendering engine from Firefox instead when on Linux). Novell are also porting applications for companies who want to move to Linux, the biggest of such projects is probably the Unity game design platform which now not only will run using Mono, it actually embeds Mono to do scripting (which is really really fast).

[ruik]

give me an example of a .net application I can run with mono on linux.
something I can download.

http://www.majestic12.co.uk/projects/dsearch/download.php

[sakabato]

give me an example of a .net application I can run with mono on linux.
something I can download.

NUnit: (with winforms GUI): http://www.nunit.org/index.php?p=download


NClass: (with Winforms) : http://nclass.sourceforge.net/downloads.html


.NET Reflector (with Windows Forms):http://www.red-gate.com/products/reflector/

Following frameworks (originally prepared for windows .net):
DB4O, NHibernate, Rhino Mocks, Log4net


Others: Any Console or Windows forms application doesn't use P/INvoke, Any ASP.NET application doesn't use web parts

[Shin_Gouki2501]

i never understand in the first place why so many "linux" people like mono more than java
:/

imo java is far for heading towards opensource then mono is..

[directhex]

i never understand in the first place why so many "linux" people like mono more than java
:/

imo java is far for heading towards opensource then mono is..

Really? That's odd, because I was under the impression that Mono has been Free Software since mid 2002 (i.e. first release). Where is it meant to head from "completely free software", exactly?

As for why... Perhaps because with .NET you can write in the language of your choice yet still get the benefits of a central runtime (a bit like if you could effectively compile python to .class and interop fine with any .class). Or because Mono in a distro like Ubuntu is a tiny fraction of the size on disk that Java would require, due to superior packaging concepts? Or the way Mono apps look like native C apps, whilst Swing sucks and non-Swing with Java sucks worse? Or because people are learning C# and VB.NET et al, and are delighted to have access to the same languages they already know when migrating from legacy OSes?

There's a selection of reasons for you.

[plun]

Novell are actively helping many companies to make their code able to run using Mono, they released tools to analysis the areas that Mono need to implement to get support as well as which areas the companies can change (e.g. embedding IE directly, which can be done with a wrapper instead that will embedded the gecko rendering engine from Firefox instead when on Linux). Novell are also porting applications for companies who want to move to Linux, the biggest of such projects is probably the Unity game design platform which now not only will run using Mono, it actually embeds Mono to do scripting (which is really really fast).

Well...

A blog from ZDnet and this guy is a Adobe employee

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Stewart/?p=944

Linux
In the Q&A, Tim Anderson asked about Linux support. Right now Silverlight has partial support for 1.0 (though it doesn’t include video or MP3 playback, two of the main features of Silverlight 1.0) and there is no support for 2 on Linux right now. As Tim notes, it’s misleading to tout the cross platform aspect of Silverlight without an actual release. It’s also surprising that there was absolutely nothing in terms of a roadmap for Linux. My hunch is that they wanted something to announce for PDC and this may be it. As Brian Goldfarb mentioned in the Q&A session, Miguel de Icaza, who runs the Moonlight effort, has a session at PDC although his session doesn’t say anything about Silverlight/Moonlight so I’m not sure what to make of that.

Net services without DRM protection ? I find it rather useless it this question cannot be resolved.

Maybe a few companys can find a few solutions.... but they probably goes directly to Azure.

Totally worthless for a end-user.... "Singing in the rain" again

[directhex]

Net services without DRM protection ? I find it rather useless it this question cannot be resolved.

Maybe a few companys can find a few solutions.... but they probably goes directly to Azure.

Totally worthless for a end-user.... "Singing in the rain" again

Nobody to give an impartial info on an Adobe Flash competitor like an Adobe guy.

Moonlight 1.0 has been branched, has *complete* 1.0 support, and will use media either by being compiled against FFmpeg or by using the built-in binary-codecs-from-microsoft function of Moon 1.0. The packages in Jaunty will use FFmpeg.

The preview 0.8 Firefox extensions hidden on go-mono.com don't have media - that doesn't mean it can't be done:

http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/00-single/normal_moonlight.png (http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/00-single/moonlight.png)

So tell me, where is Adobe's AMD64 support? I have 64-bit Moon here.

[Magnes]

It should be made possible to easily install the closed codecs from Microsoft also. I suppose alternative packages will be made by many but maybe they could be made available in comercial repository? I don't know what the EULA is for the codecs.

[plun]

So tell me, where is Adobe's AMD64 support? I have 64-bit Moon here.

Well, I never uses 64 bits for clients....never address so large memory so I cannot see any reason running 64 bit on an client.

But... Adobe 10 seems to work with IA 64 libs

In this case about Moonlight its about DRM protected contents and nearly all "big media sharks" uses DRM for media.

Except for example low quality movies from YouTube...

So I find Moonlight 2.0 rather worthless if 90% of all content cannot be viewed... "Singing in the rain with RMS"...

[directhex]

It should be made possible to easily install the closed codecs from Microsoft also. I suppose alternative packages will be made by many but maybe they could be made available in comercial repository? I don't know what the EULA is for the codecs.

Moon 1.0 in Ubuntu will come with media support built in, via FFmpeg

Moon 1.0 from Novell (via a .xpi file) will have no media support - but automatically download & add codecs from Microsoft when required

[plun]

Moon 1.0 from Novell (via a .xpi file) will have no media support - but automatically download & add codecs from Microsoft when required

Moon 1.0 cannot be used....

Its a joke to test the plugin with test pages.

http://go-mono.com/moonlight/MoonlightStatus.aspx

I define it as worthless "junk"... IMHO

[chrisccoulson]

Additionally I hope to see Monotorrent and Monsoon in the repos as well as Moonlight. The latter hopefully default in the install so Silverlight websites will work out of the box on Ubuntu.

I'm currently working on packaging the latter for Jaunty. Although it will probably be in Universe to start off with, so not installed by default.

[directhex]

Moon 1.0 cannot be used....

Its a joke to test the plugin with test pages.

http://go-mono.com/moonlight/MoonlightStatus.aspx

I define it as worthless "junk"... IMHO

You can define it as mature cheddar if you like, doesn't make you right.

How does a list of real-world sites which all show as at least "working but slow" count as "worthless junk"? Moonlight is tested against the very same set of hundreds of Microsoft test cases (i.e. the ones MS use to ensure new versions won't break old sites), and ALSO tested on real-world pages as linked.

[directhex]

I'm currently working on packaging the latter for Jaunty. Although it will probably be in Universe to start off with, so not installed by default.

Please get into contact with pkg-mono at Debian, rather than letting things go into Ubuntu only. We can help you with your packaging, and ensure that both distros benefit from your efforts

[plun]

You can define it as mature cheddar if you like, doesn't make you right.

How does a list of real-world sites which all show as at least "working but slow" count as "worthless junk"? Moonlight is tested against the very same set of hundreds of Microsoft test cases (i.e. the ones MS use to ensure new versions won't break old sites), and ALSO tested on real-world pages as linked.

Of course it is worthless junk if it doenst work !
Gnash is the same.

and there is no Moonlight 2.0.

And it must also work for DRM protected content....!

For example this supplier will run Siverlight/Moonlight

http://www.movenetworks.com/

They are for sure sitting in MS-Redmonds knee...

There is no room for "Singing in the rain with RMS"

Check Windows 7 !!!!!

[directhex]

and there is no Moonlight 2.0.

Silverlight 2.0 has been out for 3 weeks. Seriously, how fast do you expect developers to develop?

For example this supplier will run Siverlight/Moonlight

Future tense. It doesn't right now, which is why it doesn't work with Moon.

http://www.movenetworks.com/

They are for sure sitting in MS-Redmonds knee...[/quote]

So they're planning on dumping their current proprietary Windows plugin for Silverlight. That's a bad thing?

There is no room for "Singing in the rain with RMS"

Erm... what?

Check Windows 7 !!!!!

I love it when people try to change the topic on Mono threads. "Look, C# is easy to develop" "Windows 7 will require a DNA sample in order to work!" "Erm... quite"

[plun]

Well... of course and Ballmer is smart...

http://www.movenetworks.com/blog/move-networks-announces-strategic-partnership-with-microsoft

Swedish public Television already uses Moves junk for HD broadcasts.

DRM protected of course....


I will follow Miguels blog
http://tirania.org/blog/

And also Moonlights download page:
http://www.go-mono.com/moonlight/


Todays version is a joke....totally useless.


EDIT

RMS does not use such functions and then its easy for him to "Singing in the rain"
if something doesnt work.....Fedora can somtimes also use the same ideas.

[chrisccoulson]

Please get into contact with pkg-mono at Debian, rather than letting things go into Ubuntu only. We can help you with your packaging, and ensure that both distros benefit from your efforts

It seems Debian are actually already working on packaging it at the moment

[plun]

It seems Debian are actually already working on packaging it at the moment

What I have seen its more about what they must remove from NET functionality... maybe all license issues is resolved but a check with upstream version cannot be wrong.

http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

Also according to a Launchpad bug report I read about upgrading to ver 2.0.

It was "mission impossible", ... "too many bugs"... the same as with OpenOffice 3.0 :confused:

Maybe better to skip all Debian discussions...

[directhex]

It was "mission impossible", ... "too many bugs"... the same as with OpenOffice 3.0 :confused:

MY bug report. You're misrepresenting several things, including a little thing called "Feature Freeze"

You noticed Intrepid released without OOo3, yes? Same reason. Big upstream, LOTS of QA required.

Well... of course and Ballmer is smart...

Ballmer is a fat ape. I have nothing positive to say about him or the way he manages the business end of his company.

Swedish public Television already uses Moves junk for HD broadcasts.

DRM protected of course....

Then roll on the death of Move's junk, in favour of a more cross-platform Silverlight. Absolute worst case scenario, it would mean opening up their service to people running MacOS, if not people running Moon on Linux too

RMS does not use such functions and then its easy for him to "Singing in the rain"
if something doesnt work.....Fedora can somtimes also use the same ideas.

Fedora disables a LOT of useful functionality, leading to a castrated distro which frustrates users. Reckon that's the way to attract people away from Windows?

What I have seen its more about what they must remove from NET functionality... maybe all license issues is resolved but a check with upstream version cannot be wrong.

Mono 1.9.1 and lower in Debian have some ASP.NET functionality removed, as it is Creative Commons licensed (and CC is not Free Software). Mono 2.0 has the disabled functionality replaced. Moonlight packages have no removed functionality - other than any possible loss coming from using Free FFmpeg instead of Microsoft's binary codecs

And also Moonlights download page:
http://www.go-mono.com/moonlight/


Todays version is a joke....totally useless.

0.8 isn't enormously functional, which is why I haven't bothered to upload packages.

But you were claiming to have tested 1.0. Which is it - 0.8 packages with 0 media support, or hand-built 1.0? 'cos 1.0's a pig to build from SVN right now.

[Shin_Gouki2501]

why NOT to go with mono:
http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/mono-20.htm

[smartboyathome]

why NOT to go with mono:
http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/mono-20.htm

Page not found? And besides, what people spread about Mono is mostly FUD, imo, and I haven't seen much hard evidence against it, and mostly a bunch of "what if" scenarios involving Microsoft getting greedy.

[directhex]

why NOT to go with mono:
http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/mono-20.htm

Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog The Flying Frog Blog does not exist.

Do people even check the links they're copy-pasting from discredited sources, when pushong the anti-Mono line?

[plun]

MY
But you were claiming to have tested 1.0. Which is it - 0.8 packages with 0 media support, or hand-built 1.0? 'cos 1.0's a pig to build from SVN right now.

Well according to Moonlights click & run Firefox addon install the experimental version is 1.0

http://www.go-mono.com/moonlight/

It is presented as 0.8 within "addons".... doesn't work nevertheless.
Maybe also a Firefox challenge...:confused:


Agrees about building this "pig"....:---)

I took the svn code for 2.0 and those da--ed monopackages in a mess and no build-dep for gtk-sharp and gnome-sharp

It brakes...

Found a dutch howto....

http://kees.tweakblogs.net/blog/801/silverlight-ek-streams-onder-linux.html

Building the whole Mono stack.... #-o

Must be a script somewhere....:lolflag:

[smartboyathome]

Heres the real link:
http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/mono-20.html

But this is saying a couple things wrong right off the bat. Mono was intended to bring the .NET ECMA STANDARD to Linux, not Microsoft's whole .NET language. It keeps the patented stuff separate upon install, and a lot of the claims are not backed up by evidence (ie, "Mono's code generator generates native code that is slower than almost all other compiled languages."). It also starts bashing Mono for using a stable base instead of taking years to build a new one (which he probably would have flamed on as well since it would taken longer to do that).

[directhex]

Well according to Moonlights click & run Firefox addon install the experimental version is 1.0

http://www.go-mono.com/moonlight/

It is presented as 0.8 within "addons".... doesn't work nevertheless.
Maybe also a Firefox challenge...:confused:

Ah. There's the confusion. It's *Moonlight* 0.8, which has support for *Silverlight* 1.0. Like I said, 0.8 isn't complete enough for me to bother uploading packages.

Agrees about building this "pig"....:---)

The tarballs aren't that bad. SVN is a royal pain though, as you need to do a lot of things which are free with tarballs.

I took the svn code for 2.0 and those da--ed monopackages in a mess and no build-dep for gtk-sharp and gnome-sharp

It brakes...

Found a dutch howto....

http://kees.tweakblogs.net/blog/801/silverlight-ek-streams-onder-linux.html

Building the whole Mono stack.... #-o

Must be a script somewhere....:lolflag:

Possibly. I'd wait for packages if I were you. - which will happen once there's a newer tarball.

[gnomeuser]

why NOT to go with mono:
http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/mono-20.htm

You mean http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html

Aside that I see no sign in that post fundamentally opposing Mono, it is one developers opinion that the current Mono garbage collector is insufficient. Not backed by data, just opinion. Now that might be valid, the GC in Mono works but it is not a superior design - something the Mono community is working on. The roadmap[1] says that a compacting GC will become available with Mono 2.8 (set for Sept. 2008), this would fix that one issue. Note it had no legal objection nor fundamentally a technical one. So what if we are slower in some cases compared to the Microsoft reference implementation, there are others where we are significantly faster (just look at Mono.Simd something MS.NET does not currently include). So why avoid an open implementation of .NET again, it brings great technology to Linux and.. surprise it's Free Software so if you find a bug report it, don't whine in a blog, we can fix it remember (and surprise.. we are).

[1] http://www.mono-project.com/Roadmap

[plun]

Ah. There's the confusion. It's *Moonlight* 0.8, which has support for *Silverlight* 1.0. Like I said, 0.8 isn't complete enough for me to bother uploading packages.

The tarballs aren't that bad. SVN is a royal pain though, as you need to do a lot of things which are free with tarballs.

Possibly. I'd wait for packages if I were you. - which will happen once there's a newer tarball.

Yup maybe...1.0 should be branched also now according to Moonlights mailinglist.


Code must be tested...RSVGSHARP fixed but now the dirty codecs challenge.
libavcodec/ffmpeg mess...

Testing...

[Shin_Gouki2501]

yes sorry i missed the "l"
and not backed up? ho i remember reading about nice windows forms error which was GC related i try to digg it out.

[gnomeuser]

yes sorry i missed the "l"
and not backed up? ho i remember reading about nice windows forms error which was GC related i try to digg it out.

You remember? Some of us use this all day without problem, every day. Your article had no data to back it up, you digging up a second article will not change that. My ultimate question again would be why whine about a bug on a blog when we have bugzilla.. fixing problems is possible (this is free software we do it every day), hell in the time between the occurance of your nebulous memory as well as the date of the article, the bug might just be fixed.

It is a bug, all software has bugs.. Mono is software, thus Mono has bugs nobody is denying that.. get over it. What matters is what we do about bugs, I favor addressing them with bug reports and fixes, you appear to favor using them as ammo in some kind of ill guided, misinformed quest for vengance.

[Shin_Gouki2501]

there is a nice post in this forums which explains the greatest?! problem of linux: stop preaching / mention.
Do you see me preaching?

I concur with the 2nd comment of the post. The title of this thread was "my hopes for Mono+ Jaunty" so i said my opinion that <<i>> couldn't understand why mono is so popular on the desktop since i spent some time with java on the desktop and that was fine for me. I hope you understand now better.

[bash]

Changing topic: Has anyone managed to get the Moonlight Firefox plugin to work with websites using Silverlight. Installed it, but on all the silverlight websites I tried, I got the message to go download the Silverlight plugin.

[gnomeuser]

Changing topic: Has anyone managed to get the Moonlight Firefox plugin to work with websites using Silverlight. Installed it, but on all the silverlight websites I tried, I got the message to go download the Silverlight plugin.

I have had it working but not a recent version, I am waiting for 1.0 I figure it wasn't worth compiling SVN now.

(happy to change the subject from Mono bashing)

[plun]

Changing topic: Has anyone managed to get the Moonlight Firefox plugin to work with websites using Silverlight. Installed it, but on all the silverlight websites I tried, I got the message to go download the Silverlight plugin.

Nope... its worthless, IMHO

I have installed latest Mono 2.0 environment without "limitations" and are trying to build this "pig"... FF3 dependencies seems to be difficult...:)

[directhex]

Changing topic: Has anyone managed to get the Moonlight Firefox plugin to work with websites using Silverlight. Installed it, but on all the silverlight websites I tried, I got the message to go download the Silverlight plugin.

Unfortunately, many sites have made the move from Silverlight 1.0 (which Moonlight 1.0 supports) to Silverlight 2.0 (which Moon doesn't yet support in any meaningful way).

This is the problem with young projects like Moonlight - I have no doubt that 2.0 support will appear quickly though, since a big chunk of the important code is already available as part of Mono, and Microsoft released a second chunk as Free Software to help development of Silverlight clones

[plun]

Well, what a mess... Microsoft, Microsoft, Microsoft..

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5477/test1_3GEck3.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5477/test1_3GEck3.jpg)

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5476/ms_7raUr8.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5476/ms_7raUr8.jpg)

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5478/codecs_2Xs6Eu.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5478/codecs_2Xs6Eu.jpg)

Latest SVN compiled....

Maybe the codecs are there somewhere :confused:


And no eulas, please... FF3 was enough...!

EDIT its there

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5479/eula_q8TD2I.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5479/eula_q8TD2I.jpg)

[directhex]

Well, what a mess... Microsoft, Microsoft, Microsoft..

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5477/test1_3GEck3.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5477/test1_3GEck3.jpg)

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5476/ms_7raUr8.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5476/ms_7raUr8.jpg)

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5478/codecs_2Xs6Eu.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5478/codecs_2Xs6Eu.jpg)

Latest SVN compiled....

Maybe the codecs are there somewhere :confused:

They're not ready yet. Compile against ffmpeg if you want media support.

And no eulas, please... FF3 was enough...!

EDIT its there

http://ubuntu-pics.de/thumb/5479/eula_q8TD2I.jpg (http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/5479/eula_q8TD2I.jpg)

Unfortunately, as they're distributing Microsoft's codecs, it's up to Microsoft if they want people to agree to a EULA

To repeat though, the packages in Ubuntu will not use the Microsoft Media Pack, and therefore will not require a EULA

[plun]

To repeat though, the packages in Ubuntu will not use the Microsoft Media Pack, and therefore will not require a EULA

Well, I am sitting and laughing after this "battle"....:lolflag:

Its useless without codecs... what should we watch :confused:


http://www.mono-project.com/MoonlightBeta1


"Fully working sites".... :lolflag:

[directhex]

Its useless without codecs... what should we watch :confused:

Sorry, which part of "ffmpeg" isn't clear?

Please read the Codecs section of http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianMonoGroup/Moonlight

[plun]

Sorry, which part of "ffmpeg" isn't clear?

Please read the Codecs section of http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianMonoGroup/Moonlight

OK.... ffmpeg without restrictions broke... I live in a software patent free nation.

Going to read the Debian URL. Thanks !!

../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_out_samplerate'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_disable_reservoir'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_encode_buffer'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecDecode'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_encode_comment'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_info_clear'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `x264_param_default'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_brate'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `x264_encoder_headers'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `faacEncGetCurrentConfiguration'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_bWriteVbrTag'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_info_init'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecSetConfiguration'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecOpen'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `faacEncSetConfiguration'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecInit2'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecInit'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `faacEncGetDecoderSpecificInfo'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `x264_encoder_open'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_close'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `x264_encoder_encode'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_VBR'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_get_framesize'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `faacEncOpen'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_init'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_quality'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `x264_nal_encode'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_in_samplerate'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_comment_clear'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_encode_header'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_mode'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_num_channels'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `faacEncEncode'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecGetErrorMessage'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_encode_packetout'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `x264_encoder_close'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `faacEncClose'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_encode_tables'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_encode_flush'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_encode_buffer_interleaved'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecClose'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_clear'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_init_params'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `NeAACDecGetCurrentConfiguration'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_comment_init'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_encode_init'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `theora_encode_YUVin'
../../src/.libs/libmoon.so: undefined reference to `lame_set_VBR_q'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make[3]: *** [mopen1] Error 1
make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/plun/moon/tools/mopen'
make[2]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/plun/moon/tools'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/plun/moon'
make: *** [all] Error 2


No code box.... sorry... The Ubuntu-Mozilla team also builds...

[plun]

Followup... recompiled ffmpeg with a plain configure first :)

plun@plun:~/moon$ firefox
windowless mode
DownloaderRequest: http://mschnlnine.wmod.llnwd.net/a1809/d1/ch9/5/8/0/2/4/4/Visual-Studio-2010-and-NET-Framework-40-Week.wmv
ASF warning: No validation implemented for ASF_METADATA_LIBRARY.
DownloaderRequest: http://mschnlnine.wmod.llnwd.net/a1809/d1/ch9/5/8/0/2/4/4/Visual-Studio-2010-and-NET-Framework-40-Week.wmv
[wmv3 @ 0xaa747c0]Extra data: 8 bits left, value: 0
AudioPlayer: Using PulseAudio.


But I clicked on the Window... VLCs Mozilla plugin also needs a "click".

Testing standard ffmpeg..

[plun]

Followup, SVN ver 1.9 up and running.

Mono and MCS installed for full Silverlight 2.0 support

Moonlight configuration
=======================

General configuration:
Using cairo: embedded
Test Harness: no (reason: failed to find ImageMagick++ >= 6.2.8)
Performance Suite: yes

Media Support:
FFmpeg: yes
Alsa: yes
Pulseaudio: yes

Silverlight Support:
Silverlight 1.0: yes (bug compatibility: yes)
Silverlight 2.0 (managed code): yes
Browser plugin assemblies: yes
Desktop application assemblies: yes

Browser Support:
Firefox: yes
Plugin Installer (.xpi): no
Gecko 1.8 (Firefox 2): no (reason: missing FF2 development packages)
Gecko 1.9 (Firefox 3): yes


Done. The new package has been installed and saved to

/home/plun/moon/moon_1.9-1_i386.deb

You can remove it from your system anytime using:

dpkg -r moon




- Codecs install works....


- This site is still broken, a good reference for main stream users.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/


A lot works....

[directhex]

A lot works....

Impressive given 2.0 support only had developers start working on it about a week ago

[plun]

Impressive given 2.0 support only had developers start working on it about a week ago

Well, I have no clues about what I watching....

Just took MS showcase which Moonlights beta page points to..

http://silverlight.net/showcase/


"Real" HD content seems to be protected....


The quality is really good... seems "lighter" then Adobe HD streams.

[plun]

Mono 2 SVN...

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/jaunty-changes/2008-November/001014.html

I rebuilt my Moonlight plugin yesterday and the Eula and codecs are gone..:)

FF3.1 crashes sometimes so I hope we can start testing this as soon as possible !

Not wait and wait...:)

[Gina]

It's my view that if we're going to have something in a release it should be included for testing at the earliest opportunity. It goes without saying - the more testing the better.

[plun]

It's my view that if we're going to have something in a release it should be included for testing at the earliest opportunity. It goes without saying - the more testing the better.

Yup... both Hardy and Intrepid has ended up in a mess around alpha 6/betas.

There are a handful important functions for a mainstream user and lets test those as early as possible.... SVN/GIT snapshots is a good way.

But... only this "handful"... FF3.1, OO-3, PulseAudio, the kernel, maybe PackageKit.

Maybe also Ubuntu can contribute to upstream...:guitar:


:)

[directhex]

First things first - fixing Mono 2.0.1 FTBFS on armel

[plun]

First things first - fixing Mono 2.0.1 FTBFS on armel

Ok ;)

Moonlight Beta 1 is out. FF3.1 also for us....

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Dec-02-1.html

We have released the first beta of Moonlight 1.0.

This release supports the Microsoft Media Pack for playing back video and audio files. These are the same video and audio decoders that Microsoft uses in Silverlight 2.0.

Check our Moonlight roadmap for details on upcoming versions.

You can try some of the sites tests that we used to test Moonlight.

Here are some Silverlight 1.0 materials:

* How To Videos on Silverlight 1.0
* Essential Silverlight Training.
* Silverlight 1.0 Unleashed. This is my favorite Silverlight 1.0 book, one of the books that we used to get some of the Moonlight team members up to speed.

You can also read the Silvelright's XAML vocabulary description and its XAML Foundation Specification.

Posted by Miguel de Icaza on 02 Dec 2008

[directhex]

Ok ;)

Moonlight Beta 1 is out. FF3.1 also for us....

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Dec-02-1.html

jms@destiny:~$ head -1 Projects/pkg-mono/moon/trunk/debian/changelog
moon (1.0~beta1-1) UNRELEASED; urgency=low

[neighborlee]

I am not at all thrilled about mono for it could at any point have any patent issues or stuff like that. In fact the sore point has been that GNOME has been using quite a bit of Mono lately which is not good atleast from my perspective.

Tomboy is directly mentioned here:
http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.22/ , though I dont see it in 2.24 release notes, though again it shows up in 2.26 goals it seems ( gnomes page ).

http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20080528133529454

"Moonlight is usable for anyone on any distribution of Linux (redhat, ubuntu, etc.) -- it is not limited just to Novell as Mono is."

Now, so we see the mono is only useable for novel customers , severely debunking any claims that mono is 'ok' for linux, and we all know what debian and fedora think of moonlight , which isnt much:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/10/msg00102.html < from debian-devel list.

http://groups.google.com/group/tiraniaorg-blog-comments/browse_thread/thread/2a07b8b50038d8c8/d582162af2d63d57 :

> use a distro that is not mainstream or just doesn't have a deal with
> the daemon.. err Microsoft.. like Novell has.. Will I have to suffer
> the shadow of Microsoft patents over Silverlight when using or
> developing Moonlight?

" Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
patent
coverage.

Miguel "

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems#Moonlight < Fedora's Stance.

Okay there you have it, I report you decide.

These things are far too important, for everyone not to be made clearly aware of, and I suggest that debian and fedora taking such stances on these things should throw a huge red flag .

cheers
nl

[gnomeuser]

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems#Moonlight < Fedora's Stance.


As I was involved in the talks that let to this being issued let me tell you that despite repeated requests Red Hat Legal has not published any patents which they believe are infringed upon. Upon requesting such a list the answer was "It's to much work, and to expensive, to conduct a proper review - we are going to assume it's encumbered".

So Red Hat Legal has basically just evaluated in favor of not doing a proper patent review. Why is this important to note, because the Mono project' stance on patents is the following. If one is found it will be worked around, if that is not possible they will fight it to the best of their ability (and OIN has the full backlog of all Novell patents to do this with, basically this would be Mutually Asssured Destruction which nobody is interested in).

So Red Hat not not being helpful in actually pointing out what they believe the problem is so it can be fixed following the officially stated policy by the upstream.

Remembering that for ages Fedora had Mono on the forbidden list as well, which changed overnight when Red Hat joined the OIN. Red Hat has all days had a strange relationship with Mono, trying to hamper it's progress where ever they could without giving much reason aside the usual "we believe it might be covered by patents but we are certainly not going to back that accusation up with facts".

This one issue, despite my great love for Fedora and admiration for Red Hat and what they have done for the Free Software community in general has left me with an exceedingly bad taste in my mouth.

[directhex]

Red Hat has all days had a strange relationship with Mono, trying to hamper it's progress where ever they could

Red Hat have business reasons to push Java instead. Similar reasons to why Sun doesn't allow contributions to OOo which add functionality currently found only in their closed StarOffice.

[gnomeuser]

Red Hat have business reasons to push Java instead. Similar reasons to why Sun doesn't allow contributions to OOo which add functionality currently found only in their closed StarOffice.

I was to polite to say that but yes, they have invested heavily in Java which makes it even less appealing to them to conduct (and let's not forget pay for) a patent review of Moonlight.

[directhex]

I was to polite to say that

Call a spade a shovel.

Oh, and for those reading along at home, no, I won't respond directly to anything from the poster a couple of posts ago, but suffice it to say some of his claims are categorically false.

[RAOF]

...
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems#Moonlight < Fedora's Stance.
...

Man, that sucks.

What about Flash patents? :) They actively promote swfdec and gnash there.