Ubuntu 9.04 or Mac OSX Snow Leopard

[jedimasterk]

Since Ubuntu 8.10 is pretty much the same as 8.04, looks wise. Which will look better?. Ubuntu 9.04 or MacOSX Snow Leopard. Just guess!!.

[Genius314]

The default themes: OS X

After I change my theme: Ubuntu

Who knows, though? 9.04 could have an amazing theme. (Although I'd probably still change it) :)

[Half-Left]

Dont have a crystal ball sorry :p

[jedimasterk]

Dont have a crystal ball sorry :p

You don't need a crystal ball. Just make a guess!.

[d_skillz]

The ubuntu artwork team needs to pay more attention to the GUI or their default Human themes, OSX will beat every single OS on GUI hands down.

[bashveank]

I like the current OS X interface, and I kind of think that in order for the artwork team to top it, they're going to need to write their own, modern, window manager.

[phoenix_snake]

Mac OS X Snow Leopard.....can't wait to see it ;)

[banago]

Is there a preview of what Ubuntu 9.04 will look like?

[steveydoteu]

Since Ubuntu 8.10 is pretty much the same as 8.04, looks wise. Which will look better?. Ubuntu 9.04 or MacOSX Snow Leopard. Just guess!!.

How can you coherently ask such a question when the development cycle for 8.10 is not quite finished yet?

Crystal balls are not the majority of peoples strong points, unusually.

[Sand & Mercury]

This seems like a pretty silly question, given that we have no idea what either looks like. I imagine though that SL will look similar to Leopard in its current state, so 9.04 will have to come up with something to beat that.

[Efros]

I use OS X daily and tbh I really don't see anything special about the GUI apart from its annoying habit of being different just for the sake of being different.

[steveydoteu]

I use OS X daily and tbh I really don't see anything special about the GUI apart from its annoying habit of being different just for the sake of being different.

At the end of the day the GUI is the least important part if the internals are not correct.

[Half-Left]

As of what my mate says after trying a preview version of Snow Leopard, it's basically the same just optimized. KDE4.2 is looking better at moment than both in my view.

[phoenix_snake]

As of what my mate says after trying a preview version of Snow Leopard, it's basically the same just optimized. KDE4.2 is looking better at moment than both in my view.
what does kde 4.2 look like?

[jedimasterk]

Is there a preview of what Ubuntu 9.04 will look like?

Nope!. Just guess!. Let's hope Canonical surprises us!.

[jedimasterk]

How can you coherently ask such a question when the development cycle for 8.10 is not quite finished yet?

Crystal balls are not the majority of peoples strong points, unusually.

With only six days to go. I'm pretty sure it is done. Now to look forward to the next release 9.04.

[Dragonbite]

I am not really impressed with OS X in the first place so I'll say Ubuntu 9.04.

[jedimasterk]

This seems like a pretty silly question, given that we have no idea what either looks like. I imagine though that SL will look similar to Leopard in its current state, so 9.04 will have to come up with something to beat that.

Well based on the GUI track record of both operating systems in terms of looks. Just make a guess!. Do you think Ubuntu 9.04 could have a better default look to Mac OSX Snow Leopard considering that Canonical has told us that the default GUI will change. This is just for fun people. We already know what 8.10 will look like.

[jedimasterk]

The ubuntu artwork team needs to pay more attention to the GUI or their default Human themes, OSX will beat every single OS on GUI hands down.

Can the Ubuntu/Kubuntu Artwork team match the Mac OSX Artwork team?. Let's have a little competition. It will be fun!.

[jedimasterk]

I am not really impressed with OS X in the first place so I'll say Ubuntu 9.04.

Well what impresses me with OSX is the fact that you can run all of Adobe's Creative Suite products natively on the OS, and it's UNIX. But that is for another topic of discussion. We won't get into that one here!.

[jedimasterk]

what does kde 4.2 look like?

Right now pretty much the same as KDE 4.1.

[razerbug]

OSx is fugly! the dock is a nice pretty feature but all the other aspects are annoying and tacky looking, like it's not a real computer. especially it's non-windowed UI.

I've currently got Ubuntu (thanks to the amazingly versatile themes) looking nice and black glass Vista like, but with a nice black glass and steal OSx style dock. Best of both worlds.

Vista is a beautiful OS where's the option for that :P - that said XP looked like it was made by Fisherprice "my first windows" playset haha

[Half-Left]

what does kde 4.2 look like?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JFjfk2AAn6s :)

[gjoellee]

I think Mark was going to focus a little on a new theme for Ubuntu for one of the next releases...

[phoenix_snake]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JFjfk2AAn6s :)
they haven't changed the oxygen style much from kde 4.1 though....

[Dragonbite]

Well what impresses me with OSX is the fact that you can run all of Adobe's Creative Suite products natively on the OS, and it's UNIX. But that is for another topic of discussion. We won't get into that one here!.

You're talking about applications which, as you said, is for another topic (look over yonder for the dead horse, beat repeatedly).

The thread seems just about comparing looks (and feel I guess).

I've actually gotten quite fond of the 3 category menu choices along the top of the screen. Much nicer than the one "Start" or "K" or main menu setup.

I'm still working on trying to set up the perfect "panel-less" setup in Xfce, where everything is key-bound or mouse-clicked and still gives me all of the information I want at a glance (battery, wireless strength, cpu usage, etc.) and looks good.

[Half-Left]

they haven't changed the oxygen style much from kde 4.1 though....

New scrollbars are in svn trunk now I believe and it just needs refining I think.

http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/

[phoenix_snake]

New scrollbars are in svn trunk now I believe and it just needs refining I think.

http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/
thanks for the links so are the kde devs really challenging OS X?

[innovati]

The reason I voted for OS X 10.6 is that for Apple, the user-interface goes so much deeper than simply a skin on the windows. Every button placement, every dialog and pane conforms to a greater Guideline, written in advance called the Human Interface Guideline

Apple Human Interface Guideline (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/chapter_1_section_1.html)

What Ubuntu needs in order to maintain the same level of user-experience is to have software designed to the same standard all across the board. The reason apple is able to do this is because they are the sole developer of much of their software.

I fear it will be very very hard for linux or any de-centralized open-source initiative to compete with such an organized approach such as Apple, unless a strong team of User-Interface and User-Experience oriented designers in one company design everything the user sees.

As a designer with a strong passion for this, this is what I want to do with Ubuntu, but there would be no need to do it if we were already there and we're certainly not.

[phoenix_snake]

The reason I voted for OS X 10.6 is that for Apple, the user-interface goes so much deeper than simply a skin on the windows. Every button placement, every dialog and pane conforms to a greater Guideline, written in advance called the Human Interface Guideline

Apple Human Interface Guideline (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/chapter_1_section_1.html)

What Ubuntu needs in order to maintain the same level of user-experience is to have software designed to the same standard all across the board. The reason apple is able to do this is because they are the sole developer of much of their software.

I fear it will be very very hard for linux or any de-centralized open-source initiative to compete with such an organized approach such as Apple, unless a strong team of User-Interface and User-Experience oriented designers in one company design everything the user sees.

As a designer with a strong passion for this, this is what I want to do with Ubuntu, but there would be no need to do it if we were already there and we're certainly not.
exactly I tried telling this to many people on another thread about the user experience of OS X and ubuntu and I told people clearly that ubuntu or linux can't give a better experience than OS X or even Windows to some degree because different projects are handled by different people that may not even share the same ideas as ubuntu devs.

[SphereCat1]

Snow Leopard is supposed to look almost the same as Leopard, just faster. But, who knows? I might be able to help. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=866390) :) [/shameless plug]

SphereCat1

[jedimasterk]

New scrollbars are in svn trunk now I believe and it just needs refining I think.

http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/

KDE is looking very good!

[ToasterThief]

The default themes: OS X

After I change my theme: Ubuntu


This is really all that needs to be said, and probably the reason we can't beat launchpad bug #1.

The Ubuntu community is 15% coders, 35% script monkeys, 49,5% cheapskate nobrains and about 0.5% artists.

8.10 is a great achievement codewise but a major disappointment regarding look-'n-feel. Canonical promised to finance the artwork for 8.10 but let us down. That makes the 8.10 release about as bloated as Vista.

Ubuntu is still my cop of coffee, but we really need to focus on look-'n-feel of Gnome now. I'm kind of sad to point this out, but for once we should take an intensive look at Kubuntu 8.10 and learn. KDE is miles ahead.

[xakh]

Am I the only one who thinks that OSX looks terrible? I feel like I am lately. I really despise it.

[phoenix_snake]

This is really all that needs to be said, and probably the reason we can't beat launchpad bug #1.

The Ubuntu community is 15% coders, 35% script monkeys, 49,5% cheapskate nobrains and about 0.5% artists.

8.10 is a great achievement codewise but a major disappointment regarding look-'n-feel. Canonical promised to finance the artwork for 8.10 but let us down. That makes the 8.10 release about as bloated as Vista.

Ubuntu is still my cop of coffee, but we really need to focus on look-'n-feel of Gnome now. I'm kind of sad to point this out, but for once we should take an intensive look at Kubuntu 8.10 and learn. KDE is miles ahead.
lol, I always hear that kde is more customizable and stuff so if gnome can't help canonical create a theme that challenges vista or OS X then why not use kde?

[V for Vincent]

The Ubuntu community is 15% coders, 35% script monkeys, 49,5% cheapskate nobrains and about 0.5% artists.

Don't just arrogantly make up statistics. What do you know about the community as a whole, and who are you to judge people as "cheapskate nobrains"?

[ToasterThief]

lol, I always hear that kde is more customizable and stuff so if gnome can't help canonical create a theme that challenges vista or OS X then why not use kde?

That's not necessarily a bad idea as things stand now.

The default theme is essential for recruiting new users. Anybody that will reply to this statement with the usual "but we can customize anything" is a marketing-moron.

Great results can be achieved in both KDE and Gnome now. The reason nothing changes in Ubuntu is the lack of effort and determination by our sponsor.

Not even MS is as clueless about design as the Ubuntu community. They actually successfully manage to wrap the same old crap in a shiny new package every 3rd. year or so. They even sell it.

Ubuntu more and more reminds me of websites from the nineties with flashing anigifs, ****** colors and bad fonts. Hell, it even reflects on our forum. As I type this I have to look at abominations like these:

:guitar:

:lolflag:

Fecking hell! We're writing 2008 soon to be 2009. The focus for 9.04 should be design, graphics, integration of the desktop with applications and usability. I'm not ready to lose the battle just yet, but unfortunately I'm much more a coder than I'm an artist. I will, however, try to recruit artist friends for this, and so should you all.

[ToasterThief]

Don't just arrogantly make up statistics. What do you know about the community as a whole, and who are you to judge people as "cheapskate nobrains"?

Take a cry-biscuit and point me towards the fine artwork included in 8.10

[Merk42]

I think Mark was going to focus a little on a new theme for Ubuntu for one of the next releases...

It was originally promised for 8.04....then 8.10... (which I don't see happening)
.
Honestly if Microsoft promised its users something and then constantly failed to deliver, people (especially here) would react OMG M$ LAZY AND EVIL CUZ IT CAN"T DO ANYTHING!!11, but when Ubuntu promises something and then fails to deliver, those same people come up with excuses.
My favorite is that it gives the developers more time to focus on bugs, which is completely flawed logic since it's entirely two different teams of people.
Second one is that I can change the theme, which is always a riot because I shouldn't have to do that to make it look good. How about a deliberately buggy version of Ubuntu so people can fix their own bugs?

[Thricemin]

Is there a preview of 9.04?

[V for Vincent]

Take a cry-biscuit and point me towards the fine artwork included in 8.10

Oh, my remark had nothing to do with artwork. Just with your attitude.

[ToasterThief]

Oh, my remark had nothing to do with artwork. Just with your attitude.

I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings. Can we please revert to talk about the future of the graphic elements and the look-'n-feel of the default desktop of Ubuntu now, thanks.

[cisforcojo]

I agree with ToasterThief's point. I too have often longed for a better user experience and interface in Ubuntu but am partially to blame because I have done nothing to contribute in this realm.

That said, CAN I contribute?

I've seen lots of people making great wallpapers and panel graphics and mockups but what we ultimately get is that mediocre-at-best orange, brown and green spiral wallpaper.

I also completely agree with ToasterThief regarding these icons:
:guitar: :lolflag:

I think the focus here should be to view our 'concerns' as not so much complaints but rather as striving for excellence. The fact that people care so passionately about it is a good sign for Canonical. We want Ubuntu to succeed.

[jedimasterk]

This is really all that needs to be said, and probably the reason we can't beat launchpad bug #1.

The Ubuntu community is 15% coders, 35% script monkeys, 49,5% cheapskate nobrains and about 0.5% artists.

8.10 is a great achievement codewise but a major disappointment regarding look-'n-feel. Canonical promised to finance the artwork for 8.10 but let us down. That makes the 8.10 release about as bloated as Vista.

Ubuntu is still my cop of coffee, but we really need to focus on look-'n-feel of Gnome now. I'm kind of sad to point this out, but for once we should take an intensive look at Kubuntu 8.10 and learn. KDE is miles ahead.

KDE may be years ahead in looks, but it still has some pretty nasty bugs. One has to do with nvidia card owners and KDE 4.1. Bad performance issues, which can only be fixed by nvidia. Now there is a new driver from nvidia v 177... I hope the Kubuntu team realizes this. Or Kubuntu 8.10 may disappoint some.
http://forums.opensuse.org/applications/392259-minor-screen-corruption-kde-4-1-nvidia-drivers.html

http://geekzine.org/2008/10/24/is-kde-41-for-you/

[ToasterThief]

Is there a preview of 9.04?

Nope - YOU decide what 9.04 is going to look like. If you make a sincere effort chances are good, that people will listen and make it happen.

The main problem with Ubuntu for the last 3 or 4 releases is that nobody is really concerned about how it looks and feels by default. Fine, we can customize the hell out of it, and we all do, but that's not the recipe for expanding the business.

We have a solid core and a fine integration right now, we just suck at exposing it in an eatable manner to the public.

[ToasterThief]

KDE may be years ahead in looks, but it still has some pretty nasty bugs. One has to do with nvidia card owners and KDE 4.1. Bad performance issues, which can only be fixed by nvidia. Now there is a new driver from nvidia v 177... I hope the Kubuntu team realizes this. Or Kubuntu 8.10 may disappoint some.
http://forums.opensuse.org/applications/392259-minor-screen-corruption-kde-4-1-nvidia-drivers.html

http://geekzine.org/2008/10/24/is-kde-41-for-you/

You look at this the wrong way, mate. The market decides who has a problem. I know all about the proprietary and closed drivers from ATI and nvidia. Things would change greatly if Linux had a real market share, but ironically we are our own worst enemies at the moment. We don't deliver what sells.

[Merk42]

Nope - YOU decide what 9.04 is going to look like. If you make a sincere effort chances are good, that people will listen and make it happen.

The main problem with Ubuntu for the last 3 or 4 releases is that nobody is really concerned about how it looks and feels by default. Fine, we can customize the hell out of it, and we all do, but that's not the recipe for expanding the business.

We have a solid core and a fine integration right now, we just suck at exposing it in an eatable manner to the public.

People do make mock-ups all the time, unfortunately a lot of the ones that take Ubuntu in a different direction get 1 or both of these responses:
It can't be default as it requires compositing
That's not possible in GNOME.

So until we actually 'require' a 3D card (the same way Vista requires one for its prettier effect), and redo the UI, (like Apple did when they went to OSX), all Ubuntu will ever be in terms of looks is default GNOME with different colors.

[phoenix_snake]

That's not necessarily a bad idea as things stand now.

The default theme is essential for recruiting new users. Anybody that will reply to this statement with the usual "but we can customize anything" is a marketing-moron.

Great results can be achieved in both KDE and Gnome now. The reason nothing changes in Ubuntu is the lack of effort and determination by our sponsor.

Not even MS is as clueless about design as the Ubuntu community. They actually successfully manage to wrap the same old crap in a shiny new package every 3rd. year or so. They even sell it.

Ubuntu more and more reminds me of websites from the nineties with flashing anigifs, ****** colors and bad fonts. Hell, it even reflects on our forum. As I type this I have to look at abominations like these:

:guitar:

:lolflag:

Fecking hell! We're writing 2008 soon to be 2009. The focus for 9.04 should be design, graphics, integration of the desktop with applications and usability. I'm not ready to lose the battle just yet, but unfortunately I'm much more a coder than I'm an artist. I will, however, try to recruit artist friends for this, and so should you all.

lol, yeah, they need a completely re designed theme. the problem with some of the mock ups some threads show is that if they are dark they are too dark and some of them are just disgusting.

I actually love aqua and even the crispy clear glass vista has :)

As for the people saying we can customize it, point me to one theme that beats aqua or aero, though I did like one called slickness.

yes I know everyone that different people have different choices but most people like how vista and os x look even if they don't like the OS it self.

[Ub1476]

No time for 9.04, but I think Gnome can compare to OS X with the 2.30/3.0.0 release coming up around Ubuntu 10.04..

[Merk42]

No time for 9.04, but I think Gnome can compare to OS X with the 2.30/3.0.0 release coming up around Ubuntu 10.04..

At which point OS X will be different again, so they'd always be playing catch-up.

[phoenix_snake]

At which point OS X will be different again, so they'd always be playing catch-up.
exactly, ubuntu needs something now

[ToasterThief]

exactly, ubuntu needs something now

Actually Ubuntu needed something yesterday. Canonical was visionary and realized that. I was trilled by Mark Shuttleworths promise to hire a team of designers for 8.10. I'm not really trilled anymore. The current default theme looks like what any 12 y.o. kid would post in a "Post your desktop"-thread on a random WoW-forum.

We still have the overall best OS, but the current wrapping will never sell it to Mr. and Ms. Jones.

Also: :lolflag::guitar::popcorn:

Jesus Christ...

[MyBlueSkies]

i voted for kde 4 :lolflag:

[Ub1476]

At which point OS X will be different again, so they'd always be playing catch-up.

Gnome and their designers (presumably Mark Shuttleworths hired designers will have a big role here), wont follow last years trend. They'll look for the same future that OS X see, so if mangagment and developing is good, Ubuntu/Gnome will catch up. They'll look different, but hopefully both will be remarked as a good working enviroment.

[kayosiii]

I don't know if i would really bother to compare the two. both strive for different looks. Apple seem to be about having a nice light shiny crisp interface. Ubuntu is about having something simple and earthy as I see it. Apple get to tell you what hardware you want to run on ubuntu needs to run on a wide range of hardware some of which is older so it makes sense to be bit more conservative in terms of resource use... OSX's UI has always been a bit heavy in these regards (but not compared to say vista)...

I have installed Ubuntu for a few folks now and most appreciate the nice simple earthy interface. The elephant skin wallpaper from the 7.04 is particularly well liked.

To be honest though I use KDE 4 - customized to my liking - in the way that only kde can be customized... pretty much everybody comments on how pretty it is.

[Merk42]

Gnome and their designers (presumably Mark Shuttleworths hired designers will have a big role here), wont follow last years trend. They'll look for the same future that OS X see, so if mangagment and developing is good, Ubuntu/Gnome will catch up. They'll look different, but hopefully both will be remarked as a good working enviroment.

8.04 already failed to deliver a theme, seems the same for 8.10. And GNOME devs? Ha, that would involve changing the UI which I don't think they're capable of doing. It may confuse the user, so they just work on bugs, oh and REMOVING features because they may cause bugs/confusion.

While I honestly hope for something from the team Mark Shuttleworth put together, I'll remain skeptical and believe it when I see it.

[Bibek]

I would go with Mac

[Dragonbite]

8.04 already failed to deliver a theme, seems the same for 8.10. And GNOME devs? Ha, that would involve changing the UI which I don't think they're capable of doing. It may confuse the user, so they just work on bugs, oh and REMOVING features because they may cause bugs/confusion.

While I honestly hope for something from the team Mark Shuttleworth put together, I'll remain skeptical and believe it when I see it.

I'm starting to like Mark's vision abilities! Just reading his blogpost about GNOME Usability Hackfest (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/223) and Design, user experience and development at Canonical (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/162) leads me to think that he's on to something and is aware of arguments such as this thread.

It's way beyond just themes.

[cisforcojo]

"At the end of the day, bling is less transformational than a fundamental shift in content management."

*sigh* There you have it, folks. That new look just ain't comin'.

[semitone36]

It seems that there are a lot of threads popping up like this around these forums. Each one has a bunch of people with suggestions and a lot of motivation for change. So instead of just sitting on these threads and hoping that the devs notice (not many ubuntu developers actually read these forums) we should contact THEM (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/category/2/latest/) and make some forward movement ourselves.

Make your voice heard.

[cisforcojo]

I've heard it often said that the devs don't crawl the forums and I'm not sure I believe it. I can see how they might not crawl some, such as the Absolute Beginner forum, but this one, a forum for special interest, I think they might. There's no reason to believe that the devs would be any less interested in this than we are. (It's possible THIS thread might miss their attention ;))

I agree with you, though, we need to make our voices heard. More importantly, I think Ubuntu needs to better utilize their massive community.

[Ub1476]

It seems that there are a lot of threads popping up like this around these forums. Each one has a bunch of people with suggestions and a lot of motivation for change. So instead of just sitting on these threads and hoping that the devs notice (not many ubuntu developers actually read these forums) we should contact THEM (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/category/2/latest/) and make some forward movement ourselves.

Make your voice heard.

Good idea. I might bring something up myself, probably posting a thread to discuss here first. Don't except anything until January next year though, unless someone else does it first.

[Merk42]

"At the end of the day, bling is less transformational than a fundamental shift in content management."

*sigh* There you have it, folks. That new look just ain't comin'.

...and if GNOME devs are their usual self, the fundamental shift isn't either.
The mockups on the GNOME Usabily Hackfest (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/223) look nice, but again I just feel it's another mockup that's too different so it won't happen.

Meanwhile Microsoft is actually doing some GUI changes for Windows 7, so MAYBE that will encourage GNOME they need to change too.

[jedimasterk]

...and if GNOME devs are their usual self, the fundamental shift isn't either.
The mockups on the GNOME Usabily Hackfest (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/223) look nice, but again I just feel it's another mockup that's too different so it won't happen.

Meanwhile Microsoft is actually doing some GUI changes for Windows 7, so MAYBE that will encourage GNOME they need to change too.

Yeah right!. Two big things that Microsoft and Apple have that Ubuntu and the other Linux distros don't have is "paid GUI teams". Out of all the Linux distros I have seen only openSUSE has an elegant and professional looking GUI. I love and prefer Ubuntu. But brown, and the wallpapers with animals on them is not professional looking! Nor elegant!. Canonical needs to get out of the brown and orange, earthy human, look. The Earth is also blue and green, so switch to one of those colors. And looking at Fedora 10 and their new icons. is like looking at a thing from the past. Very cartoonish (XP?).

[jedimasterk]

One other thing that I have noticed about Apple and Microsoft GUIs'. Is that the look of the operating system tends to reflect the look of your hardware as well. Most hardware today (computer cases, monitors, printers, mp3 players, etcc, are either silver or black. So naturally, blue, green, red, look good on them. Brown and orange, just doesn't go with the rest of your desktop system that is silver or black. One reason why OSX is successful is that it looks good on a silver and black monitor. Just a thought!.

[Dragonbite]

If everybody is doing Blue, Red or Green then why would you want to "follow the pack" and get lost in the crowd?

Quick! List one Linux distro that you think of when you hear "blue"! Bet there are a number of distributions

Quick! List one Linux distro that you think of when you hear "brown"! You betcha! ;)

Computer companies are one part technical, something Canoncial, which is much smaller than Apple or Microsoft, compensates for with using Open Source developers world-wide and one part Marketing!

Ubuntu should stick with the color scheme.

[EnGorDiaz]

The ubuntu artwork team needs to pay more attention to the GUI or their default Human themes, OSX will beat every single OS on GUI hands down.

8.10 has came out with the same unfortunately its true im sticking to 8.04 its long term and unless 10.04 comes out not upgrading till then

[Merk42]

If everybody is doing Blue, Red or Green then why would you want to "follow the pack" and get lost in the crowd?

So instead we should deliberately NOT do it just for the sake of being different?

I'm going to go with the cliche of a car analogy.
I'm developing a car, but in order to not 'get lost in the crowd' I'm going to make it have 6 wheels. I mean, I don't want to make it have 4 just because everyone else is.

[cisforcojo]

Your analogy is flawed. We're discussing color, not functionality. :)

A positive approach to this would be for the community to take this into their own hands and design a team to make a custom theme or themes -- something easy to install and that is also extensive -- wallpaper, window borders, icons, fonts, etc. There are several people on this forum who are EXTREMELY talented, I unfortunately am not one of them, but I'm looking to get better with GIMP and Inkscape.

[Merk42]

Your analogy is flawed. We're discussing color, not functionality. :)

I concede that my analogy is flawed. However, we should still implement things (programs, themes, gui, etc) into Ubuntu because they are good and/or an improvement, not just because they are different.

[jedimasterk]

If everybody is doing Blue, Red or Green then why would you want to "follow the pack" and get lost in the crowd?

Quick! List one Linux distro that you think of when you hear "blue"! Bet there are a number of distributions

Quick! List one Linux distro that you think of when you hear "brown"! You betcha! ;)

Computer companies are one part technical, something Canoncial, which is much smaller than Apple or Microsoft, compensates for with using Open Source developers world-wide and one part Marketing!

Ubuntu should stick with the color scheme.

And list the one operating system that everyone tries to mimick!. MacOSX!. Apple has way better GUI artists, that probably get paid real well. And the apps have to meet apple standards to look well with the OS. So Ubuntu has no chance!! Do you think Canonical will pay for professional artists to develop a GUI. I'll beleive it when I see it. So far only openSuse has really only provided a professional looking GUI in both KDE and Gnome equally.

[jedimasterk]

And look at the recent news about how Microsoft is doing their hardest to make the GUI of Windows 7 to look and fuction well. Look at how much press it is getting. If Ubuntu is the top GNU Linux distribution what type of press is Canonical getting in regards to developing a new modern looking GUI for Ubuntu. None!.

[wfp]

Seems like most people i meet like to customize there desktop the way they want it, and thats another great thing about ubuntu. Just do a google search and you will find tons of great themes. I guess what i am trying to say even if they came out with a killer looking theme, i would probably change it any way to the way i want my desktop looking. It's like the people who gripe about the default wallpapers. How many of you change your wallpapers any way, and how often.

[jedimasterk]

But big businesses and small companies don't go changing their themes after installing Ubuntu or whatever Linux their using on hundreds of computers. So a nice elegent default theme is essential. Because it may never be changed.

[jedimasterk]

Seems like most people i meet like to customize there desktop the way they want it, and thats another great thing about ubuntu. Just do a google search and you will find tons of great themes. I guess what i am trying to say even if they came out with a killer looking theme, i would probably change it any way to the way i want my desktop looking. It's like the people who gripe about the default wallpapers. How many of you change your wallpapers any way, and how often.

Ubuntu's 8.10 default theme is just plain UGLY. When I look at it, I think it looks like something else that is brown!. Black and orange or red and orange would be better. Maybe a rust or maroon color would be good.

[Aetherfox]

Although I understand all of the points people are making about color and icons, I think the biggest thing ubuntu is missing is simply a UI that is uniform throughout all applications. I think this is what the ubuntu devs should really focus on. However, I understand that to get a good UI you need good artists and to get good artists you need money which ubuntu seems to lack (in comparison to M$ and Apple)

[alex.rayu]

It's OK for common users not to understand why Ubuntu UI is bad. They have an excuse. What is bad is that Ubuntu team does not understand that. Or maybe it does, but the higher authority keeos it to where it is.

I will be saying forever, that no, good UI and good design is not simply the one the users say is ok. Objectively, there are three simple things that I can point with Mac that makes Ubuntu look extremely unprofessional.

1. Unobtrusive overall theme. Gray. Middle tone. It will not stick with orange in your eyes, will not drive your attention to where is should not be. OS should be unobtrusive and not get in the way. It is an objective thing and Ubuntu has a long way to go here.

2. Colorful detailed icons. Not all gray, not all aqua. Why are Ubuntu icons on the desktop orange, like the interface and the default wallpaper? And the Tango icons - these cheap plastic low-detail things are just bad taste. Way to go.

3. Unified look across apps. Way to go.

One thing to tell me "Go buy Mac is you think Ubuntu looks bad", which I say to "Ok". And another thing is to argue, that Ubuntu actually looks good. It doesn't. But if you are not familiar with design well enough or you are but don't happen to have taste, then it's forgivable unto you. That's why Open Source is rarely good - it's very unprofessional.

As for the 9.04 - I don't believe they will make anything worthy in design area until GTK 3.0 comes out. They would not want to waste resources for it, and so much needs to be one, they are not likely to complete the canges required to make it look good for another year or two anyway. Icons, interface. Icons take lots of time. Mean, good colorful detailed icons cost a whole fortune.

[smartboyathome]

1. Unobtrusive overall theme. Gray. Middle tone. It will not stick with orange in your eyes, will not drive your attention to where is should not be. OS should be unobtrusive and not get in the way. It is an objective thing and Ubuntu has a long way to go here.

I have to agree with you there. If they would adopt the new NewWave theme, though, it would take Ubuntu a long way toward looking as good as OS X.

2. Colorful detailed icons. Not all gray, not all aqua. Why are Ubuntu icons on the desktop orange, like the interface and the default wallpaper? And the Tango icons - these cheap plastic low-detail things are just bad taste. Way to go.

Did you know that the Human icons won't stick around much longer, as the new breathe set is being made to replace it? Read about it here (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet).

3. Unified look across apps. Way to go.

One thing to tell me "Go buy Mac is you think Ubuntu looks bad", which I say to "Ok". And another thing is to argue, that Ubuntu actually looks good. It doesn't. But if you are not familiar with design well enough or you are but don't happen to have taste, then it's forgivable unto you. That's why Open Source is rarely good - it's very unprofessional.

If that were true, then many programs such as Firefox and OpenOffice.org wouldn't be as popular as they are. While I agree that something like QGtkStyle/Qt-Gtk-Engine should be installed on Ubuntu/Kubuntu respectively in order to increase the unity of the apps, the theme IS being worked on. Check out the new NewWave release, I think its very good now.

As for the 9.04 - I don't believe they will make anything worthy in design area until GTK 3.0 comes out. They would not want to waste resources for it, and so much needs to be one, they are not likely to complete the canges required to make it look good for another year or two anyway. Icons, interface. Icons take lots of time. Mean, good colorful detailed icons cost a whole fortune.

Not true, as said above there is still work going on, even though its getting Quieter. Much progress is being made on the Breathe icons, and the themes are also being updated. Ultimately, though, Mark has to decide when we get the theme and what theme it will be. :(

[alex.rayu]

Yeah oh well. I don't know if it's possible to make anything really cool with GTK2. If I were to choose, I would just make something inobtrusive for now, and would pur most resources into doing a grand theme for GTK3, showing to the community the snapshots, so that we know what's cool is happening. I searched for GTK3 - cant find any data on the interface so far.

The icons. They look good except for the folder icons - the home folder and the folder icons. They have dots for some reason, and they are orange with white. When they are smaller, the white gets lost unless the icon is on the dark background. See, I am a web designer. The people who work in interface design are even more strict then I am and can explain more. If Mark hired just one pro interface designer who knew the color theory and interface principles and who could organize the work of the design team then it would be grand. It appears we have people who can do things but they lack in theoretic education.

Actually, if Orange is Ubuntu's "firm style" color (and the logo is nice), this does not mean that everything needs to be orange - icons, wallpaper, all. Nothing will be lost of the "special color", if it is used in some "special" places - the home folder and My Computer icons, and the Start button. Mercedes and BMW does not make it's logo on all of the car, and BMWs don't make their color either black or white to match the color. They have their logo in front, a small thing - but everybody recognizes it.

[wecannotbesaved]

snow leopard on the surface is almost entirely the same as leopard. They are adding support for 64-bit, multicore and OpenCL. That's about all they discussed so far, though those are big changes to make, they won't manifest themselves in the UI.

[Orlsend]

OSX is KDE like, which I cant seem to focus on my work. Since Ubuntu 9.04 comes with gnome ill take the best looking :D

[James M]

Ridiculous. As long as we have Xorg Linux will never look better. I am sorry but it is true.

Xorg doesn't sync right and it causes nasty *** window tear. Not even Windows has this problem anymore.

Xorg = fail.

OS X wins this one.

[UnixBASHparty]

Ridiculous. As long as we have Xorg Linux will never look better. I am sorry but it is true.

Xorg doesn't sync right and it causes nasty *** window tear. Not even Windows has this problem anymore.

Xorg = fail.

OS X wins this one.

Interesting, I have always heard X.org was lightweight when compared to OS X. If it is lightweight what could be the root of this so-called tearing? I never notice tearing when I turn on wobbly windows, so perhaps you should turn on wobbly windows.

Windows? lulz. If Window's GUI crashes you have to reboot. On Linux we just reboot X.org. So simple. Besides that X.org is an elegant solution to a complex problem. With such simplicity things rarely crash.

What is your proposition? We replace X.org and become more like Windows? What next!? Are you going to say we should put the GUI in the kernel??!

[James M]

Interesting, I have always heard X.org was lightweight when compared to OS X. If it is lightweight what could be the root of this so-called tearing? I never notice tearing when I turn on wobbly windows, so perhaps you should turn on wobbly windows.

Windows? lulz. If Window's GUI crashes you have to reboot. On Linux we just reboot X.org. So simple. Besides that X.org is an elegant solution to a complex problem. With such simplicity things rarely crash.

What is your proposition? We replace X.org and become more like Windows? What next!? Are you going to say we should put the GUI in the kernel??!

Xorg is bloated and is slow. I have never seen the Windows window system crash but Xorg dozens of times. If Xorg crashes it usually takes your keyboard so you must reboot as well. And yes, part of the GUI should be in the kernel.

[UnixBASHparty]

Xorg is bloated and is slow. I have never seen the Windows window system crash but Xorg dozens of times. If Xorg crashes it usually takes your keyboard so you must reboot as well. And yes, part of the GUI should be in the kernel.

You can simply ssh into the Linux box with another PC and restart X. You do know how to do that right? You should not blame Linux for your own stupidity.

[James M]

You can simply ssh into the Linux box with another PC and restart X. You do know how to do that right? You should not blame Linux for your own stupidity.

Oh yes because using 2 computers to fix a window manager is amazingly intelligent.

[UnixBASHparty]

Oh yes because using 2 computers to fix a window manager is amazingly intelligent.

What do you do when OSX's Windower Manager goes down? OH THATS RIGHT! You have to reboot.

[James M]

What do you do when OSX's Windower Manager goes down? OH THATS RIGHT! You have to reboot.

It doesn't go down.... OS Xs window system is faster and more stable than Xorg. I have never had to reboot for it. But yes, if it does crash I reboot in a mere 35 seconds.

You go get on another computer and SSH in and take up about 5 minutes.

[UnixBASHparty]

It doesn't go down.... OS Xs window system is faster and more stable than Xorg. I have never had to reboot for it. But yes, if it does crash I reboot in a mere 35 seconds.

You go get on another computer and SSH in and take up about 5 minutes.

With Coreboot Linux can start in under 10 seconds! I bet my Linux box can get better uptime than your OSX. Mac is NOT known to have good uptime. You and I know Linux is superior at stability; don't kid yourself.

[James M]

With Coreboot Linux can start in under 10 seconds! I bet my Linux box can get better uptime than your OSX. Mac is NOT known to have good uptime. You and I know Linux is superior at stability; don't kid yourself.

OS X has great uptime, and Linux is not stable desktop wise if Xorg is running. Xorg is a joke if you ask me. It needs to be replaced.

Why would OS X have bad uptime? It is Unix and BSD.

[UnixBASHparty]

OS X has great uptime, and Linux is not stable desktop wise if Xorg is running. Xorg is a joke if you ask me. It needs to be replaced.

Why would OS X have bad uptime? It is Unix and BSD.

OSX is not a true UNIX, and never will be. It has deviated too much to be considered a true UNIX. This is why it is unstable and insecure. The true Unix paradigm == stability. This is why osx fails.

[matthew.ball]

I've never had xorg crash for me...

You can't really turn an existential quantification (i.e. xorg crashes for me) into a general quantification unless you know it holds for all cases.

[eyeofliberty]

Don't know what Snow Leopard looks like yet, but Apple won the interface wars a long time ago, period. Having said that, it's nowhere near as configurable as Gnome/Xorg. Oh, and it's not free!

Love my Mac, and love my Linux. Sue me...

[James M]

OSX is not a true UNIX, and never will be. It has deviated too much to be considered a true UNIX. This is why it is unstable and insecure. The true Unix paradigm == stability. This is why osx fails.

OS X meets Unix certification. It is stable and it is secure. Not as secure as it could be but still secure.

[James M]

I've never had xorg crash for me...

You can't really turn an existential quantification (i.e. xorg crashes for me) into a general quantification unless you know it holds for all cases.

Although some have had more luck than others, Xorg is still on the bottom of the list. It is slow and the code is mangled. The syllable OS team was appalled at the very thought of using it.

[UnixBASHparty]

I've never had xorg crash for me...

You can't really turn an existential quantification (i.e. xorg crashes for me) into a general quantification unless you know it holds for all cases.

If it is true in many cases that we have first hand knowledge of, then it would be relatively safe to extrapolate it to everything. So the real question is: James, have you heard about it crashing outside of your experience?

[James M]

If it is true in many cases that we have first hand knowledge of, then it would be relatively safe to extrapolate it to everything. So the real question is: James, have you heard about it crashing outside of your experience?

Yes, very often. I have friends that have switched back to windows because of Xorg alone.

[linuxisevolution]

Although some have had more luck than others, Xorg is still on the bottom of the list. It is slow and the code is mangled. The syllable OS team was appalled at the very thought of using it.

And their os is very nice. What gui manager did they use?

[James M]

And their os is very nice. What gui manager did they use?

They made their own window server.

[UnixBASHparty]

They made their own window server.

Moreover, it is completely scratch. It is not based on X11, GTK, QT. It is a completely new design. Not too sure.

[linuxisevolution]

Moreover, it is completely scratch. It is not based on X11, GTK, QT. It is a completely new design. Not too sure.

And that development team is small compared to Ubuntu's. Why can't we write our own. Take 10 pros from canonical and the hundreds of volunteers from the community. We could write something simple yet stable and works better than "zorg"(that's how i pronounce it. lol).

[James M]

And that development team is small compared to Ubuntu's. Why can't we write our own. Take 10 pros from canonical and the hundreds of volunteers from the community. We could write something simple yet stable and works better than "zorg"(that's how i pronounce it. lol).

...the sad truth is because Linux users would be ... well ticked. Everything is based on GTK and QT the current way. With that being said, everything would probably have to be re-programmed in some new toolkit. It is a mess. Xorg is dead in my eyes.

[linuxisevolution]

...the sad truth is because Linux users would be ... well ticked. Everything is based on GTK and QT the current way. With that being said, everything would probably have to be re-programmed in some new toolkit. It is a mess. Xorg is dead in my eyes.

Could they rewrite xorg but keep the base system? What do you use then if not xorg? What over ones are their?

[UnixBASHparty]

...the sad truth is because Linux users would be ... well ticked. Everything is based on GTK and QT the current way. With that being said, everything would probably have to be re-programmed in some new toolkit. It is a mess. Xorg is dead in my eyes.

QT has been programmed to work on Windows, OSX, and XORG. Surely we could get it on the new GUI system too.

[James M]

Could they rewrite xorg but keep the base system? What do you use then if not xorg? What over ones are their?

Well a step in the right direction would simply be re-writing Xorg from the ground up keeping the base on GTK and QT. The current way is sad. KDE4 has the desktop written as a giant window to reduce window tear. Odd? The ENTIRE desktop on KDE4 is a GIGANTIC window.

[linuxisevolution]

Well a step in the right direction would simply be re-writing Xorg from the ground up keeping the base on GTK and QT. The current way is sad. KDE4 has the desktop written as a giant window to reduce window tear. Odd? The ENTIRE desktop on KDE4 is a GIGANTIC window.

Seriously? How do you know?

So... Xorg is not managing the windows?

[James M]

Seriously? How do you know?

So... Xorg is not managing the windows?

A KDE developer wrote a paper on it. Xorg still manages the window, its just it draws the desktop as one BIG window. Its a hack/workaround. Linux is full of these hacks. After a while they build up and cause problems. Gnome recently added one for crossfading wallpaper.

[linuxisevolution]

A KDE developer wrote a paper on it. Xorg still manages the window, its just it draws the desktop as one BIG window. Its a hack/workaround. Linux is full of these hacks. After a while they build up and cause problems. Gnome recently added one for crossfading wallpaper.

Does netbsd have these problems? I might switch...

[linuxisevolution]

Kde's hack and Xorg is starting to remind me a lot of Windows...

[James M]

Does netbsd have these problems? I might switch...

BSD is wonderful, but sadly Xorgs terrible code follows OSs everywhere. Just try to hold on, we are trying to get Xorg fixed. (We = me and a select group of people)

[linuxisevolution]

BSD is wonderful, but sadly Xorgs terrible code follows OSs everywhere. Just try to hold on, we are trying to get Xorg fixed. (We = me and a select group of people)

How do you plan to do that?


I don't want to take the options away from Linux, but make it a little less scattered..

[UnixBASHparty]

BSD is wonderful, but sadly Xorgs terrible code follows OSs everywhere. Just try to hold on, we are trying to get Xorg fixed. (We = me and a select group of people)

Support Syllable, their GUI might be the only solution.

[linuxisevolution]

Support Syllable, their GUI might be the only solution.

Could it be ported? :P

[UnixBASHparty]

Could it be ported? :P

Folks are working on it.

[linuxisevolution]

Folks are working on it.

What will the project be called? AntiX would be cool if it wasn't taken..

[UnixBASHparty]

What will the project be called? AntiX would be cool if it wasn't taken..

I think they call it Syllable Window Server. Look here for more info:
http://forum.syllable.org/viewtopic.php?t=619

[alex.rayu]

Yeah it's time for Xorg to die.

[Dragonbite]

Wasn't there a controversy about Novell's XGL being a rewrite of X while Red Hat extended X with their (AIGLX?)?

Or is this technology completely different?

[alisadeq]

All people waiting mac osx leopard :guitar:

[linuxisevolution]

Sounds confusing. Sometimes you just wish that there was only one good windowing server, like win2000 :)

Aiglx? Syllable windowing server? lol... Now the names are going to get confusing:P

"Syllable AIGLX server" :guitar: sounds cool..

[andrea000]

mac has a amazing look if you ask me but all that look and it still doesn't do anymore then ubuntu i say stay away from the orange and use a different color for the theme and all will
be fine

[alex.rayu]

Not only do you have a beautiful smile, but also a good taste. Ditch the orange! Go neutral colors! Let what's important stand out, like in MacOS.

[egoeb333]

Mac OSX Snow Leopard

[Fzang]

Don't resurrect please...