suse is microsoft?

[tjwoosta]

so i was going to try to install open suse 11 on my laptop

but then i read somewhere that suse is partners with microsoft

this really changed my mind about installing it on my system

i hate microsoft!

i do not want them to make any money from me using linux


so basically my question is...


if i install opensuse does microsoft actaully gain anything from it?

does microsoft collect statistics from opensuse?

does microsoft make any money when i use opensuse?


what does microsoft gain from this?


the reason i ask theese questions is because im more interested in destroying microsoft by using linux, not supporting them!

[damis648]

I believe not. Novell (the company supporting Suse and OpenSuse) is just partners. So far as I know, Microsoft doesn't care at all about Suse, just other services that Novell provides (Like their networking clients, etc.)

[tweakedenigma]

The only way Microsoft would get money is if you bought a support voucher from them for SLED or SLES other wise no they would not get anything.

[Vince4Amy]

If you're not going to use SuSE because of the Novell deal you may as well stop using Ubuntu or most other distros. People seem to not realised that Novell are involved with many projects even parts of Gnome.

[esaym]

oh, I thought the title said "sue microsoft" I was coming in to sign my name...

[tjwoosta]

well i have no problem with supporting novel

i just dont want to help the super rich get any richer ;)


if microsoft isnt actually gaining anything from me using suse then i have no problems with installing it

[angryfirelord]

Personally, I thought the whole patent agreement was blown out of proportion. Novell has always been trying to gain Windows interoperability with their products, so this "agreement" was just a way of lending a hand. In fact, one of the first things that came out of the deal was the OpenOffice/OpenXML translator. It allows you to read .docx files in Novell's version of OpenOffice. In fact, I believe this feature has been incorporated into the upcoming OpenOffice.org 3.0 as well.

Besides, Microsoft can't make any money if you're not paying anything anyway. :)

[BryanFRitt]

If you help fix a bug in their product you are doing work for them.

If helping fix that bug helps it get fixed faster, and your helping costs less than the difference between having the bug and not, you have benefited as well.

[symon1980]

If you're not going to use SuSE because of the Novell deal you may as well stop using Ubuntu or most other distros. People seem to not realised that Novell are involved with many projects even parts of Gnome.

Yes! Exactly
They also actively develop OpenOffice, Compiz, Kde etc etc, and the improvements to it are patched for every other Linux distro too. I don't like the Novell/Microsoft Deal either.... but Novell are doing the right thing and still actively developing/improving and passing it on to the community for FREE.

[glotz]

I'd steer well clear of Novell.

[symon1980]

thats your opinion...
care to clarify your opinion on why? without a stupid reason such as "because they have made a deal with microsoft"

[glotz]

Because I care about freedom, obviously unlike you.

[cb951303]

Because I care about freedom, obviously unlike you.

obviously you don't understand the situation. novell is a big contributor to many open source projects that you probably use. So in short, you use novell's applications but you refuse to use their distribution. it's hypocrite.

[glotz]

I don't use Novell's applications. You're free to. Pun intended.

[cb951303]

I don't use Novell's applications. You're free to. Pun intended.

well do you use gnome, kde, xorg etc.. novell contributes to all

[symon1980]

ok Glotz... well, Novell hire many many Linux kernel developers....
so are you going to stop using the Linux kernel?
Lol.
your a numbskull

[glotz]

@cb951303 Do you think that Micro$oft is an open source company because of codeplex? You guys should read some history, check out M$' track record. It's the 4X and divide et impera all the way thru. It's been dirty tricks right from the very beginning. Novell's just their latest acquisition. Did you already forget the statements they made that Linux violates 234 or what ever the number was of their patents? Now Novell's their buddy and all other GNU/Linux distros suddenly are a "grey zone" if you believe their lies. Don't drink their kool aid.

[plb]

You better stay clear of Linux altogether than because Novell and Suse/OpenSUSE have contributed to A LOT of things that you use in your *buntu as well. Besides openSUSE is NOT SUSE Enterprise..notice the "open" part. Do you think it's there for no reason?

[glotz]

If they don't want me to use their software, they had better not use the GPL license. Maybe do some reading on copyleft.

And regarding opensuse... it's their testing platform, just like Fedora is for Red Hat. I had no beef with Novell prior to the deal, probably ditto for many opensuse developers.

[cb951303]

@cb951303 Do you think that Micro$oft is an open source company because of codeplex? You guys should read some history, check out M$' track record. It's the 4X and divide et impera all the way thru. It's been dirty tricks right from the very beginning. Novell's just their latest acquisition. Did you already forget the statements they made that Linux violates 234 or what ever the number was of their patents? Now Novell's their buddy and all other GNU/Linux distros suddenly are a "grey zone" if you believe their lies. Don't drink their kool aid.

I don't argue with your ideas (even though I don't believe them) I'm just saying don't be a hypocrite by using the applications contributed by opensuse but not using open suse.

[chucky chuckaluck]

i guess about the only way to have a clear conscience would be to buy a machine without an OS on it, install gnu hurd and then try to come up with something to do with it.

[plb]

If they don't want me to use their software, they had better not use the GPL license. Maybe do some reading on copyleft.

And regarding opensuse... it's their testing platform, just like Fedora is for Red Hat. I had no beef with Novell prior to the deal, probably ditto for many opensuse developers.

Ok, so you hate openSUSE and won't use the distro but you're fine with using their products? Makes sense.

[Vince4Amy]

If you're saying steer clear of anything Novel then Linux is not for you. There's Novel stuff in the actual Kernel and a lot of major applications

[plb]

i guess about the only way to have a clear conscience would be to buy a machine without an OS on it, install gnu hurd and then try to come up with something to do with it.

But what about the hardware on the machine? What kind of licenses does that have?

[plb]

Maybe this guy should take a look at this lengthy list..
http://www.novell.com/company/affiliations/

[Vince4Amy]

http://www.novell.com/company/affiliations/

Thanks for posting that, I was looking for that to post here earlier.

[cb951303]

i guess about the only way to have a clear conscience would be to buy a machine without an OS on it, install gnu hurd and then try to come up with something to do with it.

firmwares (bios, sound card, graphic card and wifi) would be still proprietary :) Unfortunately there is no running from non-free software *yet*

[inxygnuu]

oh, I thought the title said "sue microsoft" I was coming in to sign my name...

lol!:D:p to answer your question, I have seen Youtube movies that show the "MAc vs. PC" commercials, but they have Linux in them, and Linux is supposed to be like mac in the mac commercial, where "she" (Linux) is all hip and relaxed, and it is a total diss on Microsoft, so I bet they do not gain anything from it...

Best regards,
3v4n;)

[Half-Left]

If you're saying steer clear of anything Novel then Linux is not for you. There's Novel stuff in the actual Kernel and a lot of major applications

Steer clear of their distro is the correct way, Microsoft have nothing on upstram stuff from Novell, it's their distro Opensuse which bears their mark of microsoft.

[Vince4Amy]

Steer clear of their distro is the correct way, Microsoft have nothing on upstram stuff from Novell, it's their distro Opensuse which bears their mark of microsoft.

Yes but Novell has involvement with so much including the actual Linux kernel (Which is NOT Specific to OpenSUSE, it's any distro which uses these things), so you may as well avoid Linux as a whole if you hate Novell.

OpenSUSE Is an Awesome distro. I always recommend it to new Linux users.

[Giant Speck]

In 2008, Novell provided 8.9% of the total contributions to the Linux kernel itself, with a total of 7,385 changes to the kernel.

In addition to contributing to the kernel as a whole, Novell contributes to a vast number of open-source software projects, such as GNOME, Mozilla, KDE, OpenOffice.org, Perl, PHP, Samba, and Wine.

Therefore, you cannot say you don't use products that contain Novell code and use Linux at the same time. It would be hypocritical.

[symon1980]

In 2008, Novell provided 8.9% of the total contributions to the Linux kernel itself, with a total of 7,385 changes to the kernel.

In addition to contributing to the kernel as a whole, Novell contributes to a vast number of open-source software projects, such as GNOME, Mozilla, KDE, OpenOffice.org, Perl, PHP, Samba, and Wine.

Therefore, you cannot say you don't use products that contain Novell code and use Linux at the same time. It would be hypocritical.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thankyou.
There can not be anymore debate about this issue. If you don't want to use Opensuse, that is fine... its your choice, But If your saying that you will Not use anything that Novell has any part in... because of your disapproval, Then Don't Use Linux At All! Because Novell Contribute to the OpenSource Community a Hell of A Lot! You cannot avoid not using anything with Novell code in it. And I don't see why it is a problem in the first place.... I mean, I don't like Microsoft, But Novell obviously see the need to make a deal with them to improve interoperability with windows so that the Users Benefit.... Lets face it, Windows is here and will be here for a long time, So if they want to make things better between the 2 operating systems to benefit Users/Business... Without Hurting The Linux Community in Any Way... I don't see the big Deal.
Novell have said it themselves... They have only made a Deal with Microsoft, That doesn't mean they will Not Compete with them, Or stop contributing to the Opensource Community. They have not, and will not do such a thing... They have proven themselves to be doing the right thing and still contributing to Open source, and giving it away for FREE... and still providing us their "Open"Suse O.s, for FREE......

If Novell DOES do anything in the future to Hurt Linux, THEN... obviously, we would stop supporting Novell, and change distro's... thats the beauty of Linux, you are not Locked in to 1 O.S...You can change distro's whenever you like... But Until they do anything Evil... I will continue to support Novell... They can't afford to do anything to Hurt Linux... and they won't do it. All they do is continue to improve Linux and the Kernel, improve applications, and contribute in many other areas... They Put alot of Money into Linux..

So to all the People Who have a grudge over Novell/suse... Suck an Egg and Stop Using Linux ALL TOGETHER! And stop being Hypocrites


symon.

[Grant A.]

If you truly value Linux I would recommend you support Novell. Chances are that if they go under, no telling where the UNIX IP will go. Do you really want that to happen?

[symon1980]

http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/community_open_letter.html

[tjwoosta]

so about all of these great contributions that novel has made to the linux community

were they before or after novel signed the deal with the devil?

[glotz]

http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/community_open_letter.htmlJeremy Allison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Allison) and the Samba team wrote the best response to that deal.
http://news.samba.org/announcements/team_to_novell/

[ice60]

it's generally people that agree with the FSF that don't like novell, there's no arguing with people like that, they have very odd views.

[tjwoosta]

i think all of you who support proprietary software have odd views

[ice60]

i think all of you who support proprietary software have odd views
lol

[tjwoosta]

so ahh...

whats so funny about my opinion?

[ice60]

so ahh...

whats so funny about my opinion?
it's completely wrong to say you are all about freedom, then go on to say there's only one right way and that's free software. that's not freedom, it's a very narrow view.

the FSF are extremists who are selfish, they will never move on their opinions, they say if you don't use free software and only free software then you are doing wrong. they are wrong because there's room for both free software and proprietary software.

if i don't want to give away the source code it's none of their business, what right have they to stick their noses in what i'm doing? they have no right, they are wrong, it's that simple.

however, i do support both free and proprietary software, that's true freedom, freedom to pick the licence you see fit for your software.

[eragon100]

it's completely wrong to say you are all about freedom, then go on to say there's only one right way and that's free software. that's not freedom, it's a very narrow view.

the FSF are extremists who are selfish, they will never move on their opinions, they say if you don't use free software and only free software then you are doing wrong. they are wrong because there's room for both free software and proprietary software.

if i don't want to give away the source code it's none of their business, what right have they to stick their noses in what i'm doing? they have no right, they are wrong, it's that simple.

however, i do support both free and proprietary software, that's true freedom, freedom to pick the licence you see fit for your software.

I couldn't agree more. Allowing the user to make that choice is part of the free market. If people really wouldn't want to use closed-source software, then it would disappear automatically. If they do want to use it, it's not the FSF's place to forbid them to do so. It's only their place to inform users about the advantages of open-source software. Nothinh more. Otherwise, they are the ones who restrict people's freedom to do what they want with their computer.

[Giant Speck]

so about all of these great contributions that novel has made to the linux community

were they before or after novel signed the deal with the devil?

Novell has made numerous contributions to the Linux community before and after the deal with Microsoft.

Microsoft and Novell are working together to make Linux and Windows work better together. Microsoft is not trying to destroy Linux through Novell and Novell isn't giving away to Microsoft.

On an unrelated note, I personally will use any software that works, whether it is proprietary or open-source, or whether it is free or costs money. If it works, I'll use it. Supporting only open-source software is hypocritical. How can you support something that is all about freedom, when you are being closed-minded about other types of software?

[smartboyathome]

so about all of these great contributions that novel has made to the linux community

were they before or after novel signed the deal with the devil?

Both. They contributed a great deal before the deal, and still continue even after. Where do you think many of those patches to the kernel come from? ;)

[cb951303]

so about all of these great contributions that novel has made to the linux community

were they before or after novel signed the deal with the devil?

novell contributes to those projects every day. they contributed before *AND* after the deal.

[tjwoosta]

it's completely wrong to say you are all about freedom, then go on to say there's only one right way and that's free software. that's not freedom, it's a very narrow view.

the FSF are extremists who are selfish, they will never move on their opinions, they say if you don't use free software and only free software then you are doing wrong. they are wrong because there's room for both free software and proprietary software.

if i don't want to give away the source code it's none of their business, what right have they to stick their noses in what i'm doing? they have no right, they are wrong, it's that simple.

however, i do support both free and proprietary software, that's true freedom, freedom to pick the licence you see fit for your software.


ok, thats a respectable opinion

but actually i am not a member of FSF, and i am certainly no extremist

i actually just visited that website for the first time when you mentioned it

i am not saying that one should only use free software and using any other software is wrong

actually i use some proprietary softwares myself, but if i get a choice i will choose the free software first

and since novell signed a deal like this with microsoft, i think its clear that novell will not be my first choice of a distro, because that would be almost like choosing choosing a company that supports proprietary software over a company that supports open software

anyway this thread seems to be going a bit off subject and im sorry for that, i just want to make my opinion about the subject clear so that maybe somebody who does not see the clarity of the situation can get a bit of a better view

[Giant Speck]

and since novell signed a deal like this with microsoft, i think its clear that novell will not be my first choice of a distro, because that would be almost like choosing choosing a company that supports proprietary software over a company that supports open software

I'm not going to try to sway you to use OpenSuse. I mean, I don't even use it. What I want to say is that Novell didn't suddenly prefer proprietary software over open-source software because it made a deal with Microsoft. The deal is there to improve interoperability between the proprietary software of Windows and the open-source software of Linux.

If anything, Novell has increased its support of open-source software since signing the deal with Microsoft. In 2007, they only contributed 3.6% of the total contributions to the Linux kernel made that year. This year, their contributions grew by 250%, contributing almost 7.4% of the total contributions to the Linux kernel.

[glotz]

Yes, Micro$oft made the deal out of pure altruism and love for the people.

[smartboyathome]

Yes, Micro$oft made the deal out of pure altruism and love for the people.

Please stop using $ instead of s in Microsoft. It makes you're argument look that much worse, and you look that much more immature.

Anyway, I think they partnered so that they could share developers and such. They created the Interopability Lab (http://www.moreinterop.com/) to help each other, and since both are businesses, the deal makes sense. The whole world shouldn't revolve around the ideals of the FSF, and people like you make it seem like you're trying to get it to. Are businesses not allowed to preform actual business decisions anymore? :(

NOTE: I am not affiliated with Novell in any way. I am just someone who understands that Novell IS a business and will do something if it helps them earn a profit. Remember, the more profit Novell earns, the more developers Novell hires to develop for the Open Source community. ;)

[glotz]

Please stop pretending that you don't understand that the extra bucks Novell will earn out of this deal will come from the pockets of the other GNU/Linux vendors.

Businesses care about money, that's for sure. And that's why I believe that community based distros like e.g. Debian are much more likely to make decisions that are good for the user instead of good for themselves.

I just don't like the fact that the world does revolve around Micro$oft and their unsound policies. And yes, I very much respect the work the people do at the FSF.

[smartboyathome]

Please stop pretending that you don't understand that the extra bucks Novell will earn out of this deal will come from the pockets of the other GNU/Linux vendors.

Businesses care about money, that's for sure. And that's why I believe that community based distros like e.g. Debian are much more likely to make decisions that are good for the user instead of good for themselves.

I just don't like the fact that the world does revolve around Micro$oft and their unsound policies. And yes, I very much respect the work the people do at the FSF.

Like I said, please stop using $ instead of s in Microsoft. It doesn't help your argument any.

And as for the money that Novell makes coming out of other Linux vendors, that isn't entirely true. Novell also gains money from people who use Microsoft Server because their products can now work with Linux (whereas they couldn't or the meathods to do it were buggy before). Microsoft gains from the deal in that they get some help from someone who knows how the Linux platform works, and in that way they can gain experience for their security and such.

And as for community based distros such as Debian creating better products than commercial distros, that isn't entirely true. When basing development off of a community model, you will usually have a lot of strong opinions on how to do something, and when a developer chooses one way over another, a fork can occur. This means that there are less developers over any one product. Businesses, on the other hand, have their employees do what they want them to do, while having the employees keep their opinions to themselves. This can be both good and bad, I understand that. But the product made by the business can become more stable since its not forking as much.

[cardinals_fan]

Please stop pretending that you don't understand that the extra bucks Novell will earn out of this deal will come from the pockets of the other GNU/Linux vendors.

...because Red Hat and Mandriva are charities :roll:

Novell's partnership with Microsoft was a business decision. I don't think it was particularly sound, but then I don't have to make those decisions. If you're opposed to it, feel free to avoid purchasing Novell products (SLED/SLES). However, stating that Novell (much less a community distro sponsored by Novell!) is evil is just silly. I recommend that you start using NetBSD with dwm (a good system!) if you think that way, because Novell is arguably the largest contributor to Linux and FOSS today.

[glotz]

There's nothing wrong with selling Free Software but you don't do deals with the devil. Yeah, I mean Micro$oft. Note the dollar sign.

Doing testing always helps, shouldn't come as a too much of a surprise. That's the role of opensuse. No more a community distro than Ubuntu or Red Hat.

And since this deal is all about patents, all the contributions from Novell could be laced with poison. Of course, this only matters in coutries daft enough to recognize software patents. (e.g. US of A)

[symon1980]

[QUOTE=tjwoosta;6325732]

" novell will not be my first choice of a distro, because that would be almost like choosing choosing a company that supports proprietary software over a company that supports open software "

The Majority of Software that Novell Produce is Open Source. They pay programmers to write Free Open source software.
How does this mean that they favour Propietry?

[cardinals_fan]

There's nothing wrong with selling Free Software but you don't do deals with the devil. Yeah, I mean Micro$oft. Note the dollar sign.

Doing testing always helps, shouldn't come as a too much of a surprise. That's the role of opensuse. No more a community distro than Ubuntu or Red Hat.

And since this deal is all about patents, all the contributions from Novell could be laced with poison. Of course, this only matters in coutries daft enough to recognize software patents. (e.g. US of A)
"All contributions from Novell" to what? As already explained, Novell contributes to almost every major piece of Linux FOSS. You may need to move to BSD...

While this is way off-topic for this thread, I have to ask: why do you hate Microsoft so much? Have they used unethical business practices in the past to muscle out competition? Yes. However, when hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in senseless genocide in Darfur (just as an example), surely there are more worthy targets for your emotion. Microsoft is a corporation, nothing more and nothing less. Some of its employees are highly moral people and some aren't. If you consider them "the devil", maybe you need to realign your priorities.

[symon1980]

There's nothing wrong with selling Free Software but you don't do deals with the devil. Yeah, I mean Micro$oft. Note the dollar sign.

Doing testing always helps, shouldn't come as a too much of a surprise. That's the role of opensuse. No more a community distro than Ubuntu or Red Hat.

And since this deal is all about patents, all the contributions from Novell could be laced with poison. Of course, this only matters in coutries daft enough to recognize software patents. (e.g. US of A)

Your Opinon to me is Garbage... absoloute garbage.. (you probly think mine is too, but i don't care)
and I guess your saying all this nonsense because your one of those
Richard Stallman Zealots who believe that if it isn't "FOSS" it has no Place in Linux...
I disagree... Proprietry and OpenSource "FOSS" have a place in Linux... Im sick of all the stupid political debating when it comes to linux... Not EVERYTHING has to be Free as in speech and Free as in beer.... I use mainly Open source programs.. but hell, there are some programs and games that I would Buy in a Second if it gets ported over to Linux! Especially Games... I want to see more of This on Linux, and whether you like it or not, its coming... and alot of it is here now... As Long as we have the Freedom to choose Propietry or OpenSource... Everybody wins.

[cardinals_fan]

Your Opinon to me is Garbage... absoloute garbage.. (you probly think mine is too, but i don't care)
and I guess your saying all this nonsense because your one of those
Richard Stallman Zealots who believe that if it isn't "FOSS" it has no Place in Linux...
I disagree... Proprietry and OpenSource "FOSS" have a place in Linux... Im sick of all the stupid political debating when it comes to linux... Not EVERYTHING has to be Free as in speech and Free as in beer.... I use mainly Open source programs.. but hell, there are some programs and games that I would Buy in a Second if it gets ported over to Linux! Especially Games... I want to see more of This on Linux, and whether you like it or not, its coming... and alot of it is here now... As Long as we have the Freedom to choose Propietry or OpenSource... Everybody wins.
Let's try to keep this thread civil and open.

[glotz]

why do you hate Microsoft so much? Have they used unethical business practices in the past to muscle out competition? Yes. However, when hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in senseless genocide in Darfur (just as an example), surely there are more worthy targets for your emotion. Microsoft is a corporation, nothing more and nothing less. Some of its employees are highly moral people and some aren't. If you consider them "the devil", maybe you need to realign your priorities.I really fail to see the significance of anything going on in Darfur to this discussion.

Micro$oft has a long history of abuses, it's a convicted monopolist and hasn't changed its ways a bit. No thanks to the US supreme court and the Bush administration.

Computers are very significant machines. And very different from most the other machines we have. We have for example a sewing machine, a washing machine and a telly, all of those are single purpose, limited machines. A computer is a free machine, you can use it to do pretty much anything you can dream. Many people agree that the printing press was one the defining inventions of the past that really made it possible to spread knowledge and helped tremendously improve peoples lives. Those presses were mighty big things, still slow and expensive to operate and didn't produce verbatim copies, unlike what todays computers can instantly and at no cost at all.

Micro$oft is making it a terrible experience for everybody to use computers. By limiting your use of the hardware and of their software and by making sure its operating system is preinstalled on pretty much all computer units sold. All they care about is making a buck.

I could talk about Chicago and IE 6 and criminal negligence but I won't. You can find information about these elsewhere if you're interested. Ditto spam and botnets.

I don't know if you're familiar with the ooxml episode? The 'standard' that says for example you must do things like word 95 does it! Micro$oft corrupted the ISO by bribery.

Another example of Micro$oft bribes is the olpc project, a project born to deliver open hardware and software for children in the developing countries to learn about the world and about computing. Now they face more expensive machines because XP wouldn't run on the original machines and EULAs that say among other things they of course cannot take a look at the windoze source code, all this thanks to a little check written to Mr. Negroponte.

Micro$oft was a member of the W3C when the internet standards were drafted. Yet Micro$oft chose not to implement the standards in IE 1 in a nasty move that has lead to the broken internet of today. Think what the internet would be like if it actually worked.

Perhaps you've heard about "trusted computing" and drm? Micro$oft is a champion of those things. And then of course, software patents.

I really haven't spent too much time studying the evil ways of Micro$oft and have no behind the scenes insider information. Yet, the things stated above quite easily convince me that it's not just another company. More like it, just another evil to the core company.

[symon1980]

I agree with everything you have said about Microsoft. And I don't like them either.. because of these reasons and a few others...
But... Whether we Like it or not, Microsoft Dominate... and I can See why Novell have joined with Microsoft to improve interoperability between Windows and Linux...

Novell Want to Compete with windows, that won't change... But Businesses are not going to buy Suse Products if it doesn't work with Microsoft Products... and Businesses are not going to just flat out Dump Microsoft in Favour of 100% Linux just yet... But they sure are getting a Much bigger taste of Linux since this deal, now that they work together nicely... It will only lead to more Adoption of Linux in the Future...

Microsoft is "Evil"
Novell signed a deal with them, but are still doing their own thing, and still contributing to Free Open source and Linux... they did before, and they still are. Thats not going to change...So This does not make Novell a Bad Company, in my eyes, they made the right decision... As long as they don't go back on their word, and as long as they keep supporting/improving Linux and creating OpenSource Software, then Novell are doing the right thing for Linux.

also...for Microsoft to "Want" to join forces with Novell, just goes to show that Linux is winning ;)
they are taking the "can't beat em, join em" approach...

[Handyman Felting]

also...for Microsoft to "Want" to join forces with Novell, just goes to show that Linux is winning ;)

also...for Novell to "Want" to join forces with Microsoft, just goes to show that Windows is winning ;)

[symon1980]

not necessarily...
sometimes you have to pretend to make friends with the enemy to reap the benefits.... "and Then Crush them"
lol.

I think people under estimate novell... I reckon they are smarter than we give them credit for..they are the ones who are taking Microsoft for a ride.... not the other way around...
Microsoft isn't really getting much out of this deal... Linux is getting more benefit from it.

[halovivek]

microsoft will not come together to linux because of open source of code and free. so there is no worry in Linux.

[Vince4Amy]

I'm going to have to say this, I think Microsoft are awesome and I like their products I'm not afraid to say that, it's software I don't give a damn who makes it.

But isn't it wrong to flame and slam Novell when they're doing so much for OpenSource Software that a lot of zealots defend all the time, even if there are some pieces of complete rubbish. Both Opensource and Proprietary there will always be some bad applications that needs to be accepted.

Novell aren't going anywhere anytime soon and if someone claims that they will not use anything to do with Novell then Linux is not for them.

[symon1980]

I agree with both of you.
Ofcoarse Microsoft will not come too close to Linux, Microsoft charge money for all their software... hell would freeze over before they ever gave away software for free.... but Novell in the other hand, pay programmers to create Free software... Microsoft would never do that. They are in it for the money 100%
And although Novell are a business too, they make their money from their Business Standard O.s "Suse Linux Enterprise" But still give away Open suse for Free and Create all this Opensource Free Software for us....

I, on the other hand don't think that microsoft are awesome by any means... lol. they are "An Evil Empire" and I stand by that, I hate Microsoft... But I do still play games on windows that don't work on Linux... but thats about it...
I mean... for godsake... Microsoft even made a deal with a certain Computer Manufacturer (can't remember who it was now... i think toshiba)
To build their Hardware in a way to on purposely Not be able to Boot any Linux Operating System... It was built into the motherboard... apart from that there are many other reasons why I don't like microsoft... But I think that Novell are True to Linux... and are maintaining a great reputation in the business world with linux.. and also staying true to their word and contributing to Open source and Linux......

there is no debate about that ;)

Hats off to Novell :)

although, don't get me wrong... i still regulary use Ubuntu, mandriva, fedora, sabayon etc etc. But my main distro is Opensuse and I give credit to what Novell are doing :)

[Vince4Amy]

Maybe they're not awesome as a company so to speak, but their products are awesome and I enjoy using them, there's no doubt about it. If it works, I'll use it regardless of it's made by Microsoft or an Opensource developer.

[symon1980]

Maybe they're not awesome as a company so to speak, but their products are awesome and I enjoy using them, there's no doubt about it. If it works, I'll use it regardless of it's made by Microsoft or an Opensource developer.

I agree partially... there are alot of good programs by microsoft... but there are also many crap programs by microsoft....
However... there are loads and loads of Great! programs, by other developers that have created it for Windows.... and I would like to see some of those Programs ported to Linux... especially games...

Although I have found a great opensource replacement to just about everything that I use to use in windows... such as recording/Music creation software etc etc... but it still would be nice if more programs that are available for windows was available for linux....but that is not linux's fault... its the companies/developers.... its upto them to port it over...
however, I am seeing a hell of alot of software being ported over to Linux lately... I think alot of companies are starting to wake up and seeing that Linux is here to stay, and there is alot of people using linux that will buy proprietry software if its good.

If Ea Games/Valve Software brought their games over to Linux... I think a massive Majority of windows users would stay with Linux... that would be awesome... I have spoken to so many college students that have already said if Linux became a gaming platform, they wouldn't use windows anymore because they think linux has wayyy more advantages to users than windows does.... but yer, anyways.... you know what im saying.... Opensource and Proprietry on Linux would be welcomed by MOST of us... I can't wait to see linux grow more and more.

[Vince4Amy]

Yeah sure there are crap programs, there always will be, proprietary and opensource you can't avoid it.

If Ea Games/Valve Software brought their games over to Linux...

Yes I somewhat agree, I like the customisation on Linux. The way I can build a kernel specific to my machine. The way I can install KDE and make it look how I want it. Things like that are the selling point to me. I don't care about it being Opensource (though in a way I do because I can compile the source to my needs) but Novell certainly deserve more thanks then they're getting.

[symon1980]

im glad we agree ;)
although I do believe that the continued development of OpenSource Software is Important to Linux...but I would like the best of both worlds... and we are slowly getting there...

[Vince4Amy]

but I would like the best of both worlds... and we are slowly getting there...

Yes I would like that too.

[I-75]

Interesting debate.............

[cardinals_fan]

I really fail to see the significance of anything going on in Darfur to this discussion.

Micro$oft has a long history of abuses, it's a convicted monopolist and hasn't changed its ways a bit. No thanks to the US supreme court and the Bush administration.

Computers are very significant machines. And very different from most the other machines we have. We have for example a sewing machine, a washing machine and a telly, all of those are single purpose, limited machines. A computer is a free machine, you can use it to do pretty much anything you can dream. Many people agree that the printing press was one the defining inventions of the past that really made it possible to spread knowledge and helped tremendously improve peoples lives. Those presses were mighty big things, still slow and expensive to operate and didn't produce verbatim copies, unlike what todays computers can instantly and at no cost at all.

Micro$oft is making it a terrible experience for everybody to use computers. By limiting your use of the hardware and of their software and by making sure its operating system is preinstalled on pretty much all computer units sold. All they care about is making a buck.

I could talk about Chicago and IE 6 and criminal negligence but I won't. You can find information about these elsewhere if you're interested. Ditto spam and botnets.

I don't know if you're familiar with the ooxml episode? The 'standard' that says for example you must do things like word 95 does it! Micro$oft corrupted the ISO by bribery.

Another example of Micro$oft bribes is the olpc project, a project born to deliver open hardware and software for children in the developing countries to learn about the world and about computing. Now they face more expensive machines because XP wouldn't run on the original machines and EULAs that say among other things they of course cannot take a look at the windoze source code, all this thanks to a little check written to Mr. Negroponte.

Micro$oft was a member of the W3C when the internet standards were drafted. Yet Micro$oft chose not to implement the standards in IE 1 in a nasty move that has lead to the broken internet of today. Think what the internet would be like if it actually worked.

Perhaps you've heard about "trusted computing" and drm? Micro$oft is a champion of those things. And then of course, software patents.

I really haven't spent too much time studying the evil ways of Micro$oft and have no behind the scenes insider information. Yet, the things stated above quite easily convince me that it's not just another company. More like it, just another evil to the core company.
My point is that there are worse things in the world than a convicted monopolist. If you don't like Microsoft, don't use their products. If you don't like Novell, don't use their products. Just let other people make up their own minds.

[Grant A.]

My point is that there are worse things in the world than a convicted monopolist. If you don't like Microsoft, don't use their products. If you don't like Novell, don't use their products. Just let other people make up their own minds.

Exactly, part of freedom is the freedom of choice. Deal with it, or you don't deserve to have any freedoms at all.

[symon1980]

My point is that there are worse things in the world than a convicted monopolist. If you don't like Microsoft, don't use their products. If you don't like Novell, don't use their products. Just let other people make up their own minds.

True True...
Although the Original debate was about Linux users who criticise the Novell/Microsoft deal and then turn around and say they will not use anything to do with Novell... As said before, You cannot Use Linux, no matter What Distro, without Novell code in it since Novell contribute to anything from Applications, to Gui's to the Kernel itself....

So If anybody else out there says they will not use Anything to do with Novell because they do not approve of their business partnership with Microsoft to Improve Linux interoperability... Then don't use Linux at All.. Otherwise your just Putting your own foot in your mouth and being a Hypocrite.

:)
Damn this debate is lonnnggg, can we close it now that we have reached a Final Conclusion? hahaha.

[cardinals_fan]

Damn this debate is lonnnggg, can we close it now that we have reached a Final Conclusion? hahaha.
Not really. I do competitive debate at school, and it's much more stressful :)

[toasty_ghosty]

Just to chime in with some knowledge I know after research....

1 - I used openSUSE when this was annouced. I found a few facts that cannot be avoided
- Novell does support open source a simple look at this page will tell all that is needed: http://www.novell.com/company/affiliations/

Second, as said before:
In 2008, Novell provided 8.9% of the total contributions to the Linux kernel itself, with a total of 7,385 changes to the kernel.


You cannot agrue that point.

2 - Saying you do not want to use openSUSE due to this is like saying you do not want to use any software that allows Linux and Windows to work together because you are "supporting" the use of Windows. Like it or not, people will always use closed source software and to promote a better "computing world" people have to work together, open and closed source wise.

3 - I was the not the happiest when this news was annouced, like many people were not, but, unless something crazy happens and Novell starts putting hacks into the kernel, there is no reason not to be thankful for the work they do. Needless to say, in order for them to do this work they need money, and if it means teaming up with Microsoft, then so be it.

This agruement has gone on too long. Like it was said many times before:

Part of having free software is free choice, and if you feel that people shouldn't use Novell's software now, great, but there is no need to force your opinion on people. That is a "closed source" idea.

[wolfen69]

Businesses care about money, that's for sure. And that's why I believe that community based distros like e.g. Debian are much more likely to make decisions that are good for the user instead of good for themselves.



probably one of the few things i've heard from you i actually agree with. but don't expect hugs and kisses anytime soon.

[cammin]

why do people hate microsoft so much

Becuase they're free to do so.

[BigSilly]

Wow, what a fantastic thread. I don't know if any of you are still around, but I'd like to thank you for clearing up some of my concerns about the future of Linux and Novell.

I've decided recently to install and use OpenSuse 11.1 on my PC after much deliberation. I won't pretend to know all the ins and outs, but the bottom line for me was that I care about Linux and it's future, and I didn't want to use a system that was causing harm in any way to the nature of free software. Obviously, Novell is performing stellar work for the open source community, and I would be a fool to ignore that as a Linux user/fan. I am now a very happy (and impressed!) OpenSuse user.

Again, my absolute heartfelt thanks to all of you involved in this thread. A great read.