Steve Jobs Patents "The Dock"

[JohnSearle]

For those who don't read slashdot:

"If you're a PC, you may be unfamiliar with The Dock, the bar of icons that sits at the bottom or side of a Mac and provides easy access to Apple applications. But don't count on it becoming a standard on the PC. On Tuesday, the USPTO awarded Apple — and inventor Steve Jobs — a patent for their User Interface for Providing Consolidation and Access, aka 'The Dock', after a rather lengthy nine-year wait."

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/08/1224224

And as one user commented, the summary is bad.. It's actually a patent for the roller-over magnification effect.

- John

[ssam]

How old is dasher? that has a similar magnification effect.

[klange]

He's a little late, the various clones have been doing it for a while now.
(Or rather, they're a little late, he's lot out on exclusivity)

[Lord_Dicranius]

Is this going to effect the dock projects for Linux at all?

[lukjad007]

Is this going to effect the dock projects for Linux at all?
In other words, will this dock the dock projects for Linux?

[sydbat]

How old is dasher? that has a similar magnification effect.I hope I found the correct info...

From the Dasher Project website (http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/History.html), they mention it all started in 1997. If Jobs has only been waiting 9 years (as the original story states), then his "dock" came 2 years after Dasher?.

If I found the wrong info, just flame the hell outta me! :lolflag:

[Kuroyume]

Is this going to effect the dock projects for Linux at all?

it depends on where they are developed, since as far as i know software patents are not enforceable worldwide (they are not part of the international agreements covering industrial property)

[saulgoode]

6. The computer system of claim 5, wherein said predefined relationship includes a function S defined as: S=((H-h)/2)/sine(.pi..times.(h/2)/(W.times.2)).

7. The computer system of claim 6, wherein said others of said plurality of tiles each has a left edge and a right edge located at distances d.sub.1 and d.sub.2 from said cursor, and is moved to a position such that said left edge has a distance d.sub.1 from said cursor and said right edge has a distance d.sub.2' from said cursor wherein: d.sub.1'=S.times.sine(.pi./2.times.d.sub.1/W) d.sub.2'=S.times.sine(.pi./2.times.d.sub.2/W).

8. The computer system of claim 7, wherein said at least one of said plurality of tiles is scaled by a factor of: 1+(d.sub.2'-d.sub.1')/(d.sub.2-d.sub.1).

9. The computer system of claim 7, wherein said at least one of said plurality of tiles is scaled by a factor of: 1+(d.sub.2'-d.sub.1')/(d.sub.2-d.sub.1) wherein d.sub.1 and d.sub.2 are distances from said cursor to said left edge and right edge, respectively, of said at least one of said plurality of tiles prior to being moved to said position.
Hmmm... and they say you can't patent mathematic formulae.

[sydbat]

Only in the US!

[blazercist]

technically the patent is unenforceable, im writing this from my Intellectual property survey class in law school. Its just a scare tactic.

[Thelasko]

He's a little late, the various clones have been doing it for a while now.
(Or rather, they're a little late, he's lot out on exclusivity)

That's not how the US patent system works. He can now sue and receive any money the various clones have made. In addition, the various clones may have to cease operations.

It works like this:
1) File for a patent on something.
2) Other companies copy your design and make lots of money.
3) You receive the patent and then sue the other companies for all of the money they made.

Gillette is famous for patenting the stainless steel safety razor (http://www.google.com/patents?id=3RVIAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=stainless+steel+safety+razor) and waiting for their competitor, Wilkinson Sword (Shick), to sell it first. Gillette then sued Wilkinson Sword, who then had to pay Gillette for every razor they sold.

The open source model kind of puts a monkey wrench into this though. How will Apple sue for money that was never made? How will they stop the distribution of open source software? It's impossible.

[2cute4u]

if you read the patent it's not patenting the concept of a dock, it's patenting a dock with icons that magnify when you bring the cursor over them.

[blazercist]

That's not how the US patent system works. He can now sue and receive any money the various clones have made. In addition, the various clones may have to cease operations.

It works like this:
1) File for a patent on something.
2) Other companies copy your design and make lots of money.
3) You receive the patent and then sue the other companies for all of the money they made.

Gillette is famous for patenting the stainless steel safety razor (http://www.google.com/patents?id=3RVIAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=stainless+steel+safety+razor) and waiting for their competitor, Wilkinson Sword (Shick), to sell it first. Gillette then sued Wilkinson Sword, who then had to pay Gillette for every razor they sold.

The open source model kind of puts a monkey wrench into this though. How will Apple sue for money that was never made? How will they stop the distribution of open source software? It's impossible.


again, coming from law school, this patent is unenforcable, for several technical reasons including the fact that other docks existed which utilitized the same or similar principles and also the fact that jobs held on to the dock for a long time before patenting it. not to mention the "independant creation" factor. Its BS and if they grant him the patent it wont hold up in court.

[klange]

That's not how the US patent system works. He can now sue and receive any money the various clones have made. In addition, the various clones may have to cease operations.
[...]
The patent was filed 9 years ago, therefore anything of the same design that can be proven to have been made before then will break the patent. I've read my fair share of copyright and patent law. They're also patenting the formulas for the magnification, which is either way too specific and therefore makes the patent pretty much null, or is illegal in that in the US you can not patent mathematical formulas.

[Tomatz]

Oh no!

Id better set awn to spotlight twirl....


What a load of crap!

[phoenix_snake]

I thought u could only patent something BEFORE others have copied it ;)

I know the dock has existed for a long time but they don't work or look like Apple's could this be to stop linux users or maybe cause Windows 7 may get a new user interface and Microsoft is looking for ideas?

[Thelasko]

The patent was filed 9 years ago, therefore anything of the same design that can be proven to have been made before then will break the patent.
Correct, but I said...
He can now sue and receive any money the various clones have made.
If it was made before he filed the patent it wouldn't be a clone (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clone?r=75)(def 2), would it? It would then be prior art. The USPTO is supposed to check for prior art before awarding the patent.

My point is, if Steve Jobs is the true inventor of the "dock" then it doesn't matter that other people have copied it before the patent was awarded. The patent goes into effect at the date of invention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent). Not the date of issue, or even the date of filing.

[Thelasko]

I thought u could only patent something BEFORE others have copied it ;)

That's why you may see things that say "patent pending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_pending)" on them. It's a friendly reminder that a patent has been filed for, but not issued. If a patent is then issued, persons/companies that copied its design may be responsible for damages.

[Twitch6000]

Correct, but I said...

If it was made before he filed the patent it wouldn't be a clone (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clone?r=75)(def 2), would it? It would then be prior art. The USPTO is supposed to check for prior art before awarding the patent.

My point is, if Steve Jobs is the true inventor of the "dock" then it doesn't matter that other people have copied it before the patent was awarded. The patent goes into effect at the date of invention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent). Not the date of issue, or even the date of filing.
Steve Jobs is not the true inventor of the dock though(at least not the very first one).

I think there was two other ones before the one on the mac

The first one being Nextstep's dock and then someone else that I can't find the name of :(.

Plus how are they suppose to sue something that is open source??

Also note some docks are made by people in other countries.

I think Kiba-Dock is one.

[phoenix_snake]

That's why you may see things that say "patent pending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_pending)" on them. It's a friendly reminder that a patent has been filed for, but not issued. If a patent is then issued, persons/companies that copied its design may be responsible for damages.
sorry I didn't read the link, just read the responses to the original post and made a conclusion out of that

[phoenix_snake]

Steve Jobs is not the true inventor of the dock though(at least not the very first one).

I think there was two other ones before the one on the mac

The one Nextstep and then someone else that I can't find the name of :(.

Plus how are they suppose to sue something that is open source??
I don't think they can ever patent the Dock but they can and might be able to patent the look and feel of their dock.

[Twitch6000]

I don't think they can ever patent the Dock but they can and might be able to patent the look and feel of their dock.

Well all docks for Linux that i have used don't quite have the same feel as the Mac OS X dock <.<.(I am not even sure some of them are trying too unlike rocket dock)

Again though how the heck are you suppose to win over open source or sue open source I just don't see it happening lol.

[phoenix_snake]

Well all docks for Linux that i have used don't quite have the same feel as the Mac OS X dock <.<.(I am not even sure some of them are trying too unlike rocket dock)

Again though how the heck are you suppose to win over open source or sue open source I just don't see it happening lol.

I think once they manage to that is if they manage to patent it though they might not be able to sue the individual devs, it would still make it illegal and most docks to copy OS X's look for example the 3d dock and stuff and the zoom feature.

though u r right rocket dock for windows will be history by then :)

[zekopeko]

so i'm guessing that nobody paid any attention on the guy saying why this patent is worth nothing but fear? blazercist mentioned it two times in this thread.

[Soupcan]

Link. (http://www.downloadsquad.com/2008/10/08/apple-receives-patent-for-the-os-x-dock/)
This seems like a bad thing. What exactly does this mean for those of us who use docks? Do we have to remove them?

[semitone36]

They'll have to pry AWN from my cold dead hands.

[jhf429]

I may be wrong, but how could you legally patent a certain type of applicatio? If they were not written using the same source code, I really have no idea how Apple could go after open source versions of docks just be cause they look like them. Whats next? Suing Emerald because their themes could possible resemble Apple or Windows? Or compiz because it has the ability to produce fancy effects that are similiar to Apple and Windows? GNU/Linux and Apple (Yes, I know they are proprietary) are both great-great-great grandchildren of UNIX, you would think they would at the very least they would be flattered by the imitation of parts of their os, and respect the roots of their heritage.

In conclusion I think this is absurd.

[onero]

This is a US patent, and since AWN and Cairo-Dock aren't being developed in the US, then it shouldn't affect them I think.

[Soupcan]

This is a US patent, and since AWN and Cairo-Dock aren't being developed in the US, then it shouldn't affect them I think.

I hope so.

jhf429:
The patent covers a bar at the bottom of the screen that contains interactive graphics, and the "bulge" effect MacDocks have. It would seem that arranging your desktop icons in a line at the bottom of the screen would violate the patent.

[MikeTheC]

This is nothing I'm looking forward to. It's not something I've really got set up on my system, but from what I can tell it looks really nice when done properly.

Besides, isn't the whole point of F/OSS to give users the means to do what they privately want on their own hardware?

[issih]

I'd say the whole thing is yet another god awful patent that would never have been granted anywhere but in the us, but even there I'd say that the interactive graphics bit and bar at the bottom is utterly unenforceable, there is plenty of prior art for window lists, bars at the bottom, interactivity on mouseover, etc.

About the only thing I think they might have a shout of enforcing is the parabolic zoom bit (i.e. the bulge), which awn doesn't have, and I always turn off, even on my macs.

Personally I'm not very worried, but the US patent system is so horrifically jacked up there will probably be years of lawyers terrorising people before it goes away.

[nkri]

They'll have to pry AWN from my cold dead hands.

Same for me and Cairo-Dock. I'm gonna start keeping copies of it on my external hard drives just in case...

It's pretty bad that they have a patent for the dock, but at least it's not the PageUp and PageDown keys (Microsoft recently patented these, even though they've been around forever) or worse.

[meanburrito920]

Are AWN and cairo screwed now that the dock is copyrighted? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/08/apple_patents_osx_dock/

[Vitamin-Carrot]

OH Noes

:confused:

Surely the impact shouldn’t be anything like the creators of AWN receiving a Cease and Desist notice or anything as AWN isn’t for sale as its non profit ... Surely that wouldn’t happen would it ...

would it???

:(

[smartboyathome]

Probably, but I didn't read the patent so I can't know for sure.

[FuturePilot]

Well there's also numerous dock programs for Windows as well.

[GeneralZod]

Patent != Copyright.

How much precedent is there for Apple going after open source projects for patent infringement? It's quite probable that they simply don't care.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Patent != Copyright.

How much precedent is there for Apple going after open source projects for patent infringement? It's quite probable that they simply don't care.

Well to apple's merit I have not yet seen them go after linux directly for "infringement", thats more Microsoft's deal.

[kamitsukai]

surely this is only in America? are software patents allowed in the Europe?

[AlexBellisBrown]

They'll have to pry AWN from my cold dead hands.

Agreed, besides, do you see anyone making profit off AWN or Cairo? I dont. Also, Apple can shove OSX up thier iPod, if you catch my drift. All they care about is money anyway.

:popcorn:

[phoenix_snake]

now the dock will be unique to OS X again....lol :p

[kamitsukai]

I may be wrong, but how could you legally patent a certain type of applicatio? If they were not written using the same source code, I really have no idea how Apple could go after open source versions of docks just be cause they look like them. Whats next? Suing Emerald because their themes could possible resemble Apple or Windows? Or compiz because it has the ability to produce fancy effects that are similiar to Apple and Windows? GNU/Linux and Apple (Yes, I know they are proprietary) are both great-great-great grandchildren of UNIX, you would think they would at the very least they would be flattered by the imitation of parts of their os, and respect the roots of their heritage.

In conclusion I think this is absurd.


well actually thats already happening to some degree at least with compiz anyway as they cant include certain animations now namely the 'Vacuum' effect as it looks to much like one of apples effects:mad:

[phoenix_snake]

I bet the Windows 7 interface design team is pissed :p

[meanburrito920]

@phoenix_snake: most definitely.

[Pasto]

Steve Jobs is not the true inventor of the dock though(at least not the very first one).

I think there was two other ones before the one on the mac

The first one being Nextstep's dock and then someone else that I can't find the name of :(.

You do know that Jobs was the founder of NeXT right? (NeXT -> Nextstep)

[zmjjmz]

Guys, if you read the patent itself you'd realize it's way too specific to cover Cairo Dock or AWN or Stardock or whatever.
It really just covers their magnification algorithm (which, AFAIK, you can patent) which is insane and I don't like it much anyways.

[dracan_lin]

I think they were smoking something nasty when they came up with this patent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7VTTFMt9ik

:guitar:

[Twitch6000]

You do know that Jobs was the founder of NeXT right? (NeXT -> Nextstep)

Uhh no he wasn't he just bought them out so he could use their coding and the dock...

[Tomatz]

Uhh no he wasn't he just bought them out so he could use their coding and the dock...

I think RISCOS had a dock way before Nextstep.

[Erunno]

Uhh no he wasn't he just bought them out so he could use their coding and the dock...

Wrong, NeXT was founded by Jobs after him being ousted out of Apple in the mid eighties. Apple bought NeXT in the late ninetees (along with Jobs) when their own successor to OS9 failed. Jobs became interim CEO and later official CEO for Apple after the buyout.

[mips]

wrong, next was founded by jobs after him being ousted out of apple in the mid eighties. Apple bought next in the late ninetees (along with jobs) when their own successor to os9 failed. Jobs became interim ceo and later official ceo for apple after the buyout.

+1

[3rdalbum]

9. The computer system of claim 7, wherein said at least one of said plurality of tiles is scaled by a factor of: 1+(d.sub.2'-d.sub.1')/(d.sub.2-d.sub.1) wherein d.sub.1 and d.sub.2 are distances from said cursor to said left edge and right edge, respectively, of said at least one of said plurality of tiles prior to being moved to said position.

10. The computer system of claim bananas, which is put there just to test if the patent office is actually reading this.

11. The computer system of claim 7, wherein said at least one of said plurality of tiles is scaled by a factor of: 2+(d.sub.4'-d.sub.0')/(d.sub.2-d.sub.1).

[3rdalbum]

Apple just tried to patent the graphical tooltip as well, last week... as we speak, there are numerous Firefox extensions in use all over the world, as well as websites, that constitute prior art. *sigh*

[donkyhotay]

This isn't new to apple, they attempted to copyright the GUI back in the days when most people were still using CLI and sued microsoft claiming they copied 'the look and feel' of their GUI.

[jhf429]

This isn't new to apple, they attempted to copyright the GUI back in the days when most people were still using CLI and sued microsoft claiming they copied 'the look and feel' of their GUI.

Haha... That reminds me of the part in Pirates of Silicon Valley where "Jobs" flips when "Gates" copies the GUI idea. So it's even immortalized in a fictional movie.