Why Ubuntu needs to be forked as openUbuntu

[Mazza558]

I think it's nearing the time for the Ubuntu community to take Ubuntu by their own hands and make it their own again. I've been noticing a growing trend in development of new releases:

- Ubuntu Artwork made by the community is very rarely used, despite its superiority. Take the official choice of Wallpaper for Intrepid Ibex. Most members of the forums here seem to hate it, pointing out much better options within hours of the thread being started. The default theme for Ibex will not be a community theme, no matter how good it is.

- Ubuntu's Wiki is a mess. Yes, it is up to the community to clean it up and make it more organized, but this brings me to my next point:

- There really needs to be a central community website for Ubuntu. Having individual, separated websites is not good enough. Joining Ubuntu should be about joining a close-knit community offering more than forums.

- The community is not the focus of Ubuntu any more. Good ideas never make it into the latest releases because they get rejected by the developers - even if they are completely functional. Software entering the repositories is often 6 months old, despite newer releases being almost bug-free and completely stable.

- There are hardly any places for the developers to talk with the community. Every idea or feature should be voted in by the community. After all, they'll be the ones using Ubuntu! Don't forget that as the community grows, more and more "average users" will join our ranks, and they'll want a say too.

Some of these problems could be overcome with changes to the official Ubuntu structure, but I don't think this would go far enough. I propose moving to a system similar to SUSE/openSUSE. The developers work on official Ubuntu releases (the LTS releases), doing whatever they want with the OS (using non-community themes etc). The new branch of Ubuntu, called "openUbuntu" would be for the community to build upon, do what they want using a democratic web-based voting system, and contribute at their end to the future of the original Ubuntu. Since Mark Shuttleworth has hired his own team for Ubuntu Artwork, he seems to be edging towards this system anyway.

[smartboyathome]

There is Gobuntu.

[Mazza558]

There is Gobuntu.

It's not free enough. Users should have the freedom to choose between free and non-free software, not ban it altogether.

Users of openUbuntu would still get proprietary ATI/nVidia drivers too.

Then again, maybe I'm completely wrong.

[LaRoza]

Forked? Hardly. That would require the developers to fork it.

Anyone can make their own distro, and even use Ubuntu as the basis.

See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=852868

[Half-Left]

I think your meaning GNOME, the devs are on IRC but they dont communicate very much in IRC. KDE devs on the other hand do, you can talk to most of them, get bugs fixed and ask general questions.

KDE's model has always been somewhat more open to the community, I've moved to KDE4 games artwork simply because of some of these reasons and the fact it's more easier to work with.

As for a folk well you have Linux mint.

[smartboyathome]

If you think it is needed, create it. I don't see a need for it (after all, according to Kenneth's blog (http://kwwii.blogspot.com/), the wallpaper is just an experiment, not final, and the community has already come up with something better). They also DO care about the community, but Canonical doesn't create or modify most software, which I have a feeling most people think they do.

[Mazza558]

Forked? Hardly. That would require the developers to fork it.

Anyone can make their own distro, and even use Ubuntu as the basis.

See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=852868

I'm well aware that anyone can take Ubuntu's base and build on it. But I still stand by the belief that the relations between the community and the developers are getting more and more distant.

[lisati]

It's not free enough. Users should have the freedom to choose between free and non-free software, not ban it altogether.


I might be missing something here, but I thought we already had that as an option.

[LaRoza]

I'm well aware that anyone can take Ubuntu's base and build on it. But I still stand by the belief that the relations between the community and the developers are getting more and more distant.

If one doesn't like something, they don't use. Don't try to change/destroy it.

If you don't like Ubuntu, try another distro. If you can't find another distro that is acceptable, make your own.

[Mazza558]

I might be missing something here, but I thought we already had that as an option.

I was referring to Gobuntu.

If one doesn't like something, they don't use. Don't try to change/destroy it.

If you don't like Ubuntu, try another distro. If you can't find another distro that is acceptable, make your own.

How would forking destroy the original Ubuntu? I don't want to use another distro - the very reason I posted this was because I don't want to see the Ubuntu project collapse. If one likes Ubuntu, they should do all they can to keep it community based.

[Polygon]

anyone can join the developers mailing list. developers rarely visit forums cause 99% of the time, the end user has no idea what they are taking about.


and for all the reasons you stated, making a fork of ubuntu will do nothing to solve it. if you do fork it, you will have no developers at all, adn you will just be forced to use the standard ubuntu installation and still rely on the ubuntu developers to get stuff done their way.

also, your complaints about the theme/wallpaper are toward the art team, which is made up by the community?

about the package thing being old, during every dev cycle, we do a COMPLETE SYNC with debian unstable, so therefore most if not all packages are at least at a semi recent version. also, the community can request packages to be packaged to the latest version, or even package them themselfs to ensure that they are in the latest version. Hell, that happened with vlc, vlc 9 was released after the feature freeze and they packaged it to the latest version and made an exception for it.

how more close knit can you come then a forum? here we are able to chat, add friends, private message each other, we have seperate forums for loco's and 3rd party projects. the community site exists, and it is here. the only other thing i could think of that your referring to is a site like facebook, i dont want that, i could care less about 99% of ubuntu's users, there are already many other social networking sites, like facebook and myspace. why do we need another one for ubuntu when we have a perfectly good forum?

it seems to me that this 'openbuntu' is just going to be ubuntu....with a different wallpaper or theme

[UbuWu]

I'm well aware that anyone can take Ubuntu's base and build on it. But I still stand by the belief that the relations between the community and the developers are getting more and more distant.

I have never had any trouble communicating with the developers. Most of them are not very active here on the forums, but you can easily get hold of them through the mailing lists, irc and launchpad. Also virtually every developer meeting, on irc and in real life, is public and anyone can join in.

[Mazza558]

it seems to me that this 'openbuntu' is just going to be ubuntu....with a different wallpaper or theme

Who said I was making it? It's all in theory.

how more close knit can you come then a forum? here we are able to chat, add friends, private message each other, we have seperate forums for loco's and 3rd party projects. the community site exists, and it is here. the only other thing i could think of that your referring to is a site like facebook, i dont want that, i could care less about 99% of ubuntu's users, there are already many other social networking sites, like facebook and myspace. why do we need another one for ubuntu when we have a perfectly good forum?


Just a bar at the top of all Ubuntu related websites with links to them would be great. Something like:

Ubuntu Home | Ubuntu Forums | Ubuntu Brainstorm | Ubuntu Wiki |

etc.

[Polygon]

the developers can communicate. look on launchpad and you can usually find their jabber address and email address and you can also hop on the mailing list or IRC and contact them there.

i said that because the only real complaint about ubuntu itself is that <theme here> was not chosen as default. it doesn't really matter as most of the people change the theme and wallpaper anyway within the first 5 minutes of installing ubuntu. the rest of your examples are either not true, or already have plenty of chances for the community to contribute to ubuntu

[UbuWu]

Software entering the repositories is often 6 months old, despite newer releases being almost bug-free and completely stable.

That is mostly due to a lack of manpower, even with the debian and ubuntu developers combined. Only in the last period before an ubuntu release, no new features are allowed without a good reason for them. So forking would only make things worse. It would be better to contribute directly in debian or ubuntu.

[Mhurst1]

It's not free enough. Users should have the freedom to choose between free and non-free software, not ban it altogether.

Users of openUbuntu would still get proprietary ATI/nVidia drivers too.

Then again, maybe I'm completely wrong.

Ever hear of Debian ??

[LaRoza]

Who said I was making it? It's all in theory.


Then what is the point? Theory didn't get Ubuntu made, but action.

"To action alone hast thou a right and never at all to its fruits; let not the fruits of action be thy motive; neither let there be in thee any attachment to inaction"

[Mazza558]

I meant moving all the community developers to the fork and leaving Canonical to pick what they want for official releases. Shuttleworth's core team of artwork developers will mean no community theme will ever be used, or at least very rarely.

[LaRoza]

I meant moving all the community developers to the fork and leaving Canonical to pick what they want for official releases. Shuttleworth's core team of artwork developers will mean no community theme will ever be used, or at least very rarely.

In this development model, it is very competitive. People will do what they think is best. In this case, since the developers haven't moved to the "fork" it won't happen.

Read above quote about actions.

[UbuWu]

It's not free enough. Users should have the freedom to choose between free and non-free software, not ban it altogether.

Users of openUbuntu would still get proprietary ATI/nVidia drivers too.

Then again, maybe I'm completely wrong.

There is an option on the cd to install without any proprietary software/drivers and you can then always install it later if you want. So this is already implemented.

Edit: at the cd boot menu, press F6 and select free software only to do this.

[K.Mandla]

The new branch of Ubuntu, called "openUbuntu" would be for the community to build upon, do what they want using a democratic web-based voting system, and contribute at their end to the future of the original Ubuntu.
Who said I was making it? It's all in theory.
:|

If you want a fork, fork it. Jump in there and get your hands dirty.

[LaRoza]

:|

If you want a fork, fork it. Jump in there and get your hands dirty.

Exactly, like it says in the link I posted (to a thread I wrote):


It is possible and not that hard, however, you'll have to do it yourself.

Posting your ideas isn't going to get anything done; you will have to make the effort to make them happen.

[Mazza558]

:|

If you want a fork, fork it. Jump in there and get your hands dirty.

If enough people agreed with me, then yes, I would attempt a fork. Since I'm probably wrong about my arguments (according to the massive amount of disagreement), there seems little point. It would just be me against the community - pointless.

[LaRoza]

If enough people agreed with me, then yes, I would attempt a fork. Since I'm probably wrong about my arguments (according to the massive amount of disagreement), there seems little point. It would just be me against the community - pointless.

How many people agreed that Linus should make his own kernel?

You have to do.

[Mazza558]

How many people agreed that Linus should make his own kernel?

You have to do.

I'm obviously wrong though, unlike Linus who had no community bearing down on him.

[LaRoza]

I'm obviously wrong though, unlike Linus who had no community bearing down on him.

Community didn't exist then.

[K.Mandla]

You have to do.
Exactly. If you start a blog or a site explaining your goals and what you want to accomplish and why, you'll get hordes of people all willing to pitch in. That's how it works.

The fact that you started this thread is a good first step. Now sync the repos, solicit for help and in three months you'll be posting an ISO. :)

[Mazza558]

Exactly. If you start a blog or a site explaining your goals and what you want to accomplish and why, you'll get hordes of people all willing to pitch in. That's how it works.

The fact that you started this thread is a good first step. Now sync the repos, solicit for help and in three months you'll be posting an ISO. :)

Unfortunately, the community here has already persuaded me not to. I explained what I wanted to accomplish here, but got a resounding "no".

To be honest, there is little reason for a fork - it's more about the current situation in the Ubuntu community.

[Dharmachakra]

I say do it. Tight-knit is the way to go.

[K.Mandla]

Unfortunately, the community here has already persuaded me not to. I explained what I wanted to accomplish here, but got a resounding "no".
"Whether you think you can or can't, you're right." -- Henry Ford
To be honest, there is little reason for a fork - it's more about the current situation in the Ubuntu community.
Wait, so all this drama was just an offhanded complaint about the community ... ? #-o

Moved to Recurring Discussions ... :???:

[phrostbyte]

Just make this the default wallpaper and be done with it.

http://lucumr.pocoo.org/static/pictures/dawn_of_ubuntu.png

[mike1234]

Unfortunately, the community here has already persuaded me not to. I explained what I wanted to accomplish here, but got a resounding "no".

To be honest, there is little reason for a fork - it's more about the current situation in the Ubuntu community.

That's all the more reason to do it. Do you have any idea how many successful ventures had inauspicious beginnings? "No" should be your catalyst to begin such a project.

M.

[mike1234]

Just make this the default wallpaper and be done with it.

http://lucumr.pocoo.org/static/pictures/dawn_of_ubuntu.png


Hasn't this been done already?

M.

[Half-Left]

Ubuntu devs pretty much dont have much say what gets put into GNOME, they just package it up. I see the Ubuntu community want something new but it's down to the GNOME devs and GNOME 2.x is hitting/hit it's limit.

KDE4 is where the innovation is at the moment, your more lightly to get your mockups in there than GNOME you just can only dream.

[pbhj]

There really needs to be a central community website for Ubuntu.

Launchpad, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu, meets some of this need. With UbuF (here!) and http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ I rarely visit anywhere else for [K]Ubuntu needs (solutions, bug reporting, suggestions).