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View Full Version : If I were the Dell or Lenovo person in charge of preinstalled Linux...



aysiu
September 11th, 2008, 11:22 PM
... and I saw these comments, I definitely wouldn't bother ever selling preinstalled Linux. What's the point?

What would I tell the angry Linux users who say I'm supporting Microsoft's monopoly? I'd tell them, "Windows users buy preinstalled. Linux users prefer to buy Windows and install Linux themselves. There's just no market for preinstalled Linux, and Linux users don't understand economies of scale or any of the costs that go into selling another option apart from the standard options." That's what I'd say, and I think I'd be justified.


Wow that's surprsing, I agree buy the Vista and install Ubuntu later.



Isnt it better if i buy laptop with vista liscense and then just install ubuntu witch is free... also i can make a dualboot with ubuntu and vista and this will cost me nothing. But in case if buy ubuntu dell i'm gona have to buy vista too, in case i need windows for some applications.



I mean just order the windows machine for $200 less and download Ubuntu and install yourself...


as a Linus user it makes more sense to buy the LOWER priced box and install Ubuntu yourself...

That is just... um... odd. Smart buyers will do just that and then the uninformed will be shown sales figures and, again, get the wrong picture.


So buy the Windows version and simply install Ubuntu - problem solved!



As far as getting a cheaper machine by buying it preloaded with windows... once again... "so what?" Yes, it would be nice to buy a machine without considering your effect on the linux community, and every corporation involved in your purchase. But I would just advise that you ignore that and buy the windows version. If you can get a refund by not signing the contract, well then sweet! Free Money!!! But I would argue that just buying the machines with windows is tantamount to free money. I know linux isn't just about free beer... but think about it... you could save $200 dollars and get free shipping. All you have to do is take what... 10 minutes to take off windows?


why would people buy the ubuntu one instead of buying the windows one and adding ubuntu to it? there's no good reason.


at the same price tag if I'd have to choose between a laptop with Linux preinstalled and a laptop with Windows, I'd pick the latter one. more value for the same money (and a good opportunity for dual-booting)

Whiffle
September 11th, 2008, 11:29 PM
Money talks...




...But it don't sing and dance
And it don't walk


/neil diamond

SZF2001
September 11th, 2008, 11:34 PM
If I were the Dell or Lenovo person in charge of preinstalled Linux...

...then I would keep the cost of Windows down with pre-installed OEM and software trial junk and keep all the extra wads of cash from MS in my pocket and feed my family.

Let the Linux nerds buy pre-installed or install themselves, I've got mouths to feed.

aysiu
September 11th, 2008, 11:37 PM
...then I would keep the cost of Windows down with pre-installed OEM and software trial junk and keep all the extra wads of cash from MS in my pocket and feed my family.

Let the Linux nerds buy pre-installed or install themselves, I've got mouths to feed.
Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way, but, yes, basically.

It's great some Linux users realize that what you buy affects what they sell, but clearly that's offset by a lot of Linux users who think only about short-term costs and not long-term costs.

AndyCooll
September 12th, 2008, 12:07 AM
It's why I bought my Dell laptops with Ubuntu pre-installed. I wanted to make sure that I voted with my wallet.

Buying a laptop with Windows installed and then replacing it with a Linux distro, still registers as a Windows sale (and hence a vote for Windows) as far as the company is concerned.

Buying the laptops with Dell pre-installed was unequivocally two sales in the Linux pre-install column.

:cool:

david_lynch
September 12th, 2008, 12:08 AM
It would be great if vendors could provide a fully set up and usable linux system, but realistically most vendors are too noob to pull that off, and I don't mind installing the OS myself.

My problem is that I don't appreciate being pressured to buy a windoze license that I don't want, and will never use. It's not the cost, it's the principle.

I want to vote with my wallet, but how do I do that if my vote is counted as a vote for microsoft, due to the backroom deals microsoft has made with the vendors?

sydbat
September 12th, 2008, 12:18 AM
It would be great if vendors could provide a fully set up and usable linux system, but realistically most vendors are too noob to pull that off, and I don't mind installing the OS myself.

My problem is that I don't appreciate being pressured to buy a windoze license that I don't want, and will never use. It's not the cost, it's the principle.

I want to vote with my wallet, but how do I do that if my vote is counted as a vote for microsoft, due to the backroom deals microsoft has made with the vendors?How about buying the pre-installed Ubuntu then just reinstall it yourself? That way, you make sure it is all working fine.

For those who are not sure how to do this, the pre-installed version will probably work with the same percentages of problems as a Windows pre-install (or less) and Dell has support people ready to help.

That is how we vote with our wallets.

AndyCooll
September 12th, 2008, 12:18 AM
Well you can buy a system with a pre-installed Linux system, i.e. a Dell laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed as I did for instance ...and it was fully configured and set-up, it worked out-of-the-box.

True there isn't as much choice and you usually buy them online since you can't get them from your local shop, but they are available.

:cool:

david_lynch
September 12th, 2008, 04:35 AM
@sydbat, andycooll -

Yes, that's how I'll roll: buy a preinstalled linux box from Dell, or whoever else is willing to ship what I want. That way my vote gets counted correctly, even if I end up installing suse or mint or whatever.

I guaran-damn-tee you though, I won't ever be installing windoze :lolflag:

phrostbyte
September 12th, 2008, 04:43 AM
Linux is just getting better and better, and as it gets better it actually forces these back office OEM deals to be better and better for the OEM thus slowly eroding Microsoft's revenues. When Microsoft revenues start to decrease, it will effect the quality of Microsoft's products and Linux by comparison will continue to look better and better. This causes a positive feedback loop in Linux's favor. I don't know how long this process will take, but it's inevitable simply due to the nature of FOSS.

I build my desktop computers, and my next laptop will definitely be a netbook of some sort so I am not worried (personally) of being force fed Windows. I don't know if that is situation is for everyone though, but I think the situation will only get better for Linux users even with setbacks like these.

ad_267
September 12th, 2008, 04:54 AM
Man I wish Dell or anyone would sell Linux preinstalled laptops in NZ, or that System 76 would ship here. I'll probably buy a laptop before next year and I definitely want one with Linux preinstalled.

sloggerkhan
September 12th, 2008, 04:58 AM
Buying with windows preinstalled wouldn't be a big deal if you could actually get easily reimbursed for refusing the license agreement.

Irihapeti
September 12th, 2008, 05:21 AM
Man I wish Dell or anyone would sell Linux preinstalled laptops in NZ, or that System 76 would ship here. I'll probably buy a laptop before next year and I definitely want one with Linux preinstalled.

Somebody is already. Mind you, I have no idea about the quality, since I've never seen one.

http://www.hbclinux.net.nz/acer4315-804.html

Irihapeti

ad_267
September 12th, 2008, 05:25 AM
Somebody is already. Mind you, I have no idea about the quality, since I've never seen one.

http://www.hbclinux.net.nz/acer4315-804.html

Irihapeti

Yeah I saw them, they're not selling them any more though and that was only one laptop.

Haha a quote from that website:

Windows is not "popular"
- it is "common" (like the cold.)

karellen
September 12th, 2008, 07:03 AM
Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way, but, yes, basically.

It's great some Linux users realize that what you buy affects what they sell, but clearly that's offset by a lot of Linux users who think only about short-term costs and not long-term costs.

well please explain what's the problem of buying the cheaper version when the specs are the same? It's not my intention to help Dell make inroads with their Linux preinstalled machines or to help spread Linux making illogical financial decision just for the sake of a credo into a tool (which in fact an OS is) :confused:

SZF2001
September 12th, 2008, 07:50 AM
Man I wish companies would invest time and effort into a product that isn't selling when there is another operating system people are comfortable with and won't alienate the customer base with. I mean it's not like we could just burn our own Linux images over the Windows installation, that's crazy talk!

aysiu
September 12th, 2008, 06:07 PM
well please explain what's the problem of buying the cheaper version when the specs are the same? It's not my intention to help Dell make inroads with their Linux preinstalled machines or to help spread Linux making illogical financial decision just for the sake of a credo into a tool (which in fact an OS is) :confused:
If you don't care about Linux being preinstalled, then of course there's no problem with buying Windows preinstalled.

The only illogical financial decision would be buying Windows preinstalled if you want to then complain about a company no longer selling Linux preinstalled.

If you're not going to complain, then what you're doing isn't illogical.

Logical
1. I don't care if Linux is preinstalled or not. I buy Windows preinstalled.
2. I care about Linux being preinstalled, so I buy Linux preinstalled.

Illogical
3. I care about Linux being preinstalled, which is why I buy Windows preinstalled and then install Linux myself.

Since you are #1 and I'm #2, neither of us is being illogical.

I would argue that some in the Linux community give the impression of being #3, though.

sefs
September 12th, 2008, 06:56 PM
This makes me think that there is a market waiting to be tapped in here somewhere.

Such as a process whereby you can purchase a vista machine, but thru some option you can specify you want a dual boot configuration option.

Or some third party (like system 76) can set up strong partnerships with main windows retailers (like dell) where dell could add an option for dual booting their selected systems with linux...but this would be handled by the third party.

Maybe someone needs to sit down and think this thru and come up with a fool proof plan.

There is an opportunity in this somewhere waiting to be got, where a good piece of money can be made. I can smell it. I just cant figure it out lol.

zmjjmz
September 12th, 2008, 08:10 PM
Guys, if you don't show them that you want them to support Linux, they'll sell laptops with less compatible hardware. Or they'll say you voided your warranty by installing it.
It's not about the price. While I don't particularly like buying more expensive computers (does anyone?), the recognition and the benefits that follow it far outweigh the extra 50$.

eragon100
September 12th, 2008, 08:19 PM
How about buying the pre-installed Ubuntu then just reinstall it yourself? That way, you make sure it is all working fine.


Because The dell version of ubuntu 8.04 ships with legal out of the box dvd playback software, mp3 etc. codecs, and special dell system backup software.

fiddledd
September 12th, 2008, 08:51 PM
I see a problem here, but I may not have thought this through enough.

I don't think there are enough Ubuntu users that will buy Dell's pre installed systems to make it profitable for Dell.

But I do think there are enough Linux users that might. I'm also speaking of potential Ubuntu and potential Linux users.

So, I know it won't happen, (it's an old argument) but if there was one version of Linux there would be much more chance of it being profitable for Dell, and indeed for other OEMs.

Now you can all tell me where my argument fails.:)

chris4585
September 12th, 2008, 08:55 PM
I ordered my laptop preinstalled with Ubuntu from dell, why? Because to me windows does not exist, I do not use windows on a day to day basis, and the only time I use windows is if someone needs help.

So supporting what i like was a obvious choice even if it costs a little bit more, whats $50 when you're buying something $1,700.

aysiu
September 12th, 2008, 08:57 PM
By the way, I don't know if anyone's aware of this, but if cost is an issue, NotebookReviews.com has Dell coupons (they come up in a Google search) that give you a pretty hefty discount, and they work for the Ubuntu computers as well. I'm not sure if it's US-specific or if it works in other countries, too.

ikt
September 12th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Strange how we are seeing none of the posters mentioned in the op.

If I buy a notebook it will most likely be from Dell with ubuntu pre installed.

tom66
September 12th, 2008, 09:42 PM
I would buy a nice Windows Vista box, install Ubuntu (test it out), disagree to the EULA, and get a refund for Vista, as stated as a right in the EULA (you can obtain a refund of about 60-150). Finally, the EULA lets you actually do something. I don't need licensed DVD playback, I can use vlc/mplayer. I could also combine it with some of the above mentioned coupons.

toupeiro
September 12th, 2008, 10:30 PM
By Pre-installed, what that also implies is manufacturer support.

When they choose not to offer, or to drop pre-installed linux, they are also making a statement saying that we will not support Linux on our hardware.


That is my problem with dropping pre-installed linux. They will support windows, and not necessarily sell you a piece of hardware with windows on it. Why can't they do the same with Linux? Its the vendors that associate pre-installed with support when it comes to Linux. When this separates, I will care a little less about pre-installed linux. Until then, dropping pre-installed linux drops you from my recommendations and potential purchases.

SZF2001
September 12th, 2008, 10:58 PM
Just go for a company that sells computers without any sort of operating system on them. Then you don't have to uninstall any Window installs and you can get back on the Ubuntu forums and continue to say new wacky witty things like "MICROSHAFT' and "WINBLOWS".

gn2
September 12th, 2008, 11:08 PM
Asus are happy to provide Linux on their netbooks so why not on their other laptops?

If I had been able to buy an F9E with Linux pre-installed I would have, but it wasn't possible.

I did buy a Vista installed laptop and I do care about Linux pre-installs, but not enough to settle for a lower standard of hardware specification.

Doesn't make me illogical.

zmjjmz
September 12th, 2008, 11:11 PM
Asus are happy to provide Linux on their netbooks so why not on their other laptops?

If I had been able to buy an F9E with Linux pre-installed I would have, but it wasn't possible.

I did buy a Vista installed laptop and I do care about Linux pre-installs, but not enough to settle for a lower standard of hardware specification.

Doesn't make me illogical.
Here's a good policy then.
Everytime you buy a computer, e-mail Asus and ask for a Linux computer.
Encourage your friends to do so.
Something might possibly happen in an alternate universe eventually.

LaRoza
September 12th, 2008, 11:13 PM
... and I saw these comments, I definitely wouldn't bother ever selling preinstalled Linux. What's the point?

What if you had a dedicated following and much praise and business for Linux preinstallations then yanked it? (Lenovo...)

zmjjmz
September 12th, 2008, 11:15 PM
What if you had a dedicated following and much praise and business for Linux preinstallations then yanked it? (Lenovo...)

AFAIK, they didn't stop preloading Linux.
They just stopped selling them on their website, for whatever reason.

sloggerkhan
September 13th, 2008, 12:38 AM
It is true that the costs of development, support, and install relative to sales volume for linux make it end up costing marginally similar to windows.

SZF2001
September 13th, 2008, 12:40 AM
Yes because you guys are all running a big business, right?

zmjjmz
September 13th, 2008, 12:41 AM
The person who is in charge of the pre-installs probably doesn't run the business, and is most likely interested in Linux.

SZF2001
September 13th, 2008, 12:43 AM
The person who is in charge of the pre-installs probably doesn't run the business, and is most likely interested in Linux.

And was hopefully fired for his entrepreneur tactics.

zmjjmz
September 13th, 2008, 12:44 AM
Offering customers a different operating system counts as entrepreneuring?
Wow, what a crazy world we live in.

SZF2001
September 13th, 2008, 12:46 AM
Offering customers a different operating system counts as entrepreneuring?
Wow, what a crazy world we live in.

When everyone and their grandma already knows Windows, yea, that kind of is crazy.

zmjjmz
September 13th, 2008, 12:47 AM
When everyone and their grandma already knows Windows, yea, that kind of is crazy.

Really now?
Most people don't even have or have used a desktop computer.

zmjjmz
September 13th, 2008, 12:51 AM
Uh, ok?
Not sure where you're going with that.

cardinals_fan
September 13th, 2008, 01:12 AM
Quite frankly, I would buy whichever machine is cheapest. I'll be installing OpenSolaris or Slackware anyway, so I don't care.

toupeiro
September 13th, 2008, 04:32 AM
When everyone and their grandma already knows Windows, yea, that kind of is crazy.

That logic seems broken....

Flashback to 1519, when everyone and their grandma already knew the world was flat, that was kind of crazy for Ferdinand Magellan to attempt to sail "around" the world...

:rolleyes:

ikt
September 14th, 2008, 05:22 PM
That logic seems broken....

Flashback to 1519, when everyone and their grandma already knew the world was flat, that was kind of crazy for Ferdinand Magellan to attempt to sail "around" the world...

Exactly.

How many Ferdinand Magellans were there compared to the population at the time?

In a strict business sense customers can believe the world is flat all they want so long as they keep paying, in fact I think this is almost every religions business model...

Polygon
September 15th, 2008, 01:42 AM
it seems the problem is that dell is making the linux laptops more expensive, when in fact they should be cheaper cause dell does not have to pay for the windows licences. If dell sold the same laptop, but one with windows, and one with linux that was CHEAPER (cause it should be) then obviously who like and use linux would choose the linux or windows laptop

they are only saying those things because, for some reason, the windows laptop is cheaper.

zmjjmz
September 15th, 2008, 02:06 AM
But, without the trialware the price goes up.

cardinals_fan
September 15th, 2008, 02:28 AM
How many Ferdinand Magellans were there compared to the population at the time?

Considering what happened to him, not many would want to be the same...