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Kernel Sanders
September 6th, 2008, 06:45 PM
Why is this becoming more and more common around here? :confused:

It seems there are more and more threads that are "closed pending a review". It seems really really silly, and i've never seen this approach anywhere else other than here, particularly as all it does is frustrate users and effectivly kill threads.

Unless there is a clear reason to close, or until there is a mod consensus to close, for the sake of smooth operation of the forum and not making people scratch their heads in a "WTF?" way, how about you just leave them open?

If it was obviously damaging it would be closed no question, so it seems stupid to just close a thread if you're not sure.

What does everyone else think about this? It seems a no brainer to me. I mean, why would you close a thread just because you thought, "well, i'm not sure about this?" Because if you're wrong you've just killed the thread, made everyone think of you in a negative "trigger happy" light, and made this place look a little more negative to post in.

Just my $0.02 really. I've noticed an increase in this lately, and that there is an obvious increase in discourse about it.

Canis familiaris
September 6th, 2008, 06:54 PM
I agree.
I think the attitude should be of "Innocent unless proven Guilty" rather than "Guilty unless Proven Innocent" which apparently seems the way used now.

chucky chuckaluck
September 6th, 2008, 06:56 PM
i agree. too many threads get closed for even having the potential to be... well whatever the feared problem is. what is being avoided when a thread is prematurely closed?

R_T_H
September 6th, 2008, 07:07 PM
Well, it's better to close first and then reopen it than engage in "last shot" moderation and/or leave it shut. Just my 0.02 :)

p_quarles
September 6th, 2008, 07:16 PM
I think if it were left to some of the users here, there would be no moderation here at all.

Threads get closed all the time for various reasons, and they always have. There is no unifying reason, other than that the content either violates our rules or is otherwise inappropriate. "Closed for review" usually indicates that the moderater thinks the problem is urgent, but is not certain how to proceed. It's a useful tool.

As for the high-pitched indignation about human rights, people seriously need to get some perspective here. Closing a thread is not a criminal court conviction, and has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. It is about keeping the forum on topic and within the bounds of the owner's desired usage. Your legal rights are not affected.

Kernel Sanders
September 6th, 2008, 07:35 PM
Threads get closed all the time for various reasons, and they always have. There is no unifying reason, other than that the content either violates our rules or is otherwise inappropriate. "Closed for review" usually indicates that the moderater thinks the problem is urgent, but is not certain how to proceed. It's a useful tool.

There is nothing wrong with closing threads if they are unacceptable. It has always happened here, and I don't think anyone's complaining about that.

What's new, and what certainly hasn't always happened around here are thread closures because the mod isn't sure how to proceed. It's frustrating, unnecessary, and makes the forums look more restrictive than they are.

If a thread needs to be closed then close it. If you're not sure then make a post in the mods forum or PM another mod and make a decision. Then if the consensus is to close it, then close it?

Closing it while you work out whether it should be closed or not doesn't do this forum any favours at all, and is obviously why it's not a method employed by any other forum.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but I am seeing the atmosphere of this place start to change for the worse, and if it can be prevented I would like to think i'm helping by speaking up about it :KS

KiwiNZ
September 6th, 2008, 09:21 PM
As I have said in the past ,sometimes staff will be the only one online. A thread they hae participated goes to pot. Its better they close for review later by other staff. If they outright close there would be an out burst of protest.

Others threads are borderline , its best that its closed to allow staff to discuss.

It seems of late that the staff are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont. And very little appreciation shown for the hours upon hours the staff have given of their spare time to make this place a good place that it is. :(:mad:

Kernel Sanders
September 6th, 2008, 10:05 PM
As I have said in the past ,sometimes staff will be the only one online. A thread they hae participated goes to pot. Its better they close for review later by other staff. If they outright close there would be an out burst of protest.

Others threads are borderline , its best that its closed to allow staff to discuss.

It seems of late that the staff are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont. And very little appreciation shown for the hours upon hours the staff have given of their spare time to make this place a good place that it is. :(:mad:

I wouldn't say staff are "damned if they do, and damned if they don't" really, i'd say it's more that this methodology is wrong, and they are getting the blame for it.

In my experience, the decision to close a thread isn't taken lightly in any forum. However, you have uniquely created an "in between" method here which is making it easy to close threads, and thus, it is happeneing more often, despite the fact the effect is the same as if the thread was outright closed.

It's causing a lot of frustration and animosity among the userbase, and adversly affecting the atmosphere here.

To me this approach is patently wrong, and the moderators are taking the flak for it, and it's not fair on them or the users :(

If a thread needs closing, then close it. If you're not sure you must let it continue. After all, the staff here are far from stupid. If a thread needs closing it will be, and if they aren't sure then there's a reason for that, it's not obvious that the thread needs to be closed. Then when the thread is closed in THOSE circumstances "for review", it causes a backlash of animosity and makes this place look like a really restrictive place to post.

If this continues as it has I forsee the resolution cenre getting more activity, and people just outright leaving and going elsewhere, which would be a shame :(

lukjad007
September 6th, 2008, 10:08 PM
I agree.
I think the attitude should be of "Innocent unless proven Guilty" rather than "Guilty unless Proven Innocent" which apparently seems the way used now.
I have to disagree with you here. If a police officer sees something that looks like a crime being committed, I don't want him to go back to his squad car and radio his chief for instructions. He steps in, invokes martial law and controls the situation and then turns it over to the courts. During the time that it would have taken him to leave the scene, go to the car and get his orders. It works on the same principle. The mod sees something that could get or may already be out of hand. The thread is closed temporarily so that there can be an independent analysis of the situation. This is very fair, since there are also other appeal processes that can be done. If you want something ideal, then you should find and hire some perfect people to sit perfectly all day and perfectly judge every situation. :-) Until that happens, this is fine.

EDIT: I started to write this a few hours ago so I may have missed a few points. Sorry.

aysiu
September 6th, 2008, 10:21 PM
People don't close threads if everything is going well. They close threads if they know the thread is taking a bad turn or if they think it's taking a bad turn.

If they know it, they'll say, "This thread is closed."

If they only think it, they'll say, "This thread is closed, pending review," at which point they'll ask the other staff for opinions on whether the thread should be reopened or stay closed.

I don't see what the big deal is.

lukjad007
September 6th, 2008, 10:23 PM
+1

Bliepo32
September 6th, 2008, 10:23 PM
Just use commmon sense when posting something, and the thread won't be closed.

LaRoza
September 6th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Well, I typically close for review. This is a way of giving a thread a chance to cool down and almost always works well.

I typically reopen them when asked (unless they are in a forum I read a lot and I see them and remember).

We could just Jail them permanently, but I think we should give threads a chance.

Kernel Sanders
September 6th, 2008, 10:50 PM
People don't close threads if everything is going well. They close threads if they know the thread is taking a bad turn or if they think it's taking a bad turn.

If they know it, they'll say, "This thread is closed."

If they only think it, they'll say, "This thread is closed, pending review," at which point they'll ask the other staff for opinions on whether the thread should be reopened or stay closed.

I don't see what the big deal is.

The "big deal" is that that doesn't happen on any other forum, and causes nothing but frustration on the part of the users, and adversely effects the atmosphere of this place.

If you think a thread needs to be closed, then close it. Closing a thread that you are unsure about "for review" makes it easier to close threads as in the back of your mind it's not a perminant closure (although the effect on the users is the same), and has led to a LOT more thread closures than usual. Then if a thread is later reopened it just makes the users all the more frustrated.

Lets be fair, obvious threads are closed outright, and anyone without an axe to grind (i.e. most people) will agree. If you're not sure, then it's more than arguable that the thread should stay open, and to close a thread like that is incredibly frustrating and doesn't make this place look too good to be frank.

LaRoza
September 6th, 2008, 10:56 PM
The "big deal" is that that doesn't happen on any other forum, and causes nothing but frustration on the part of the users, and adversely effects the atmosphere of this place.

It happens all over the forum. It happens a lot in Programming Talk, Testimonials, Cafe, and Other OS talk discussions sometimes.

I think what adversely effects the atmosphere is the constant barrage of negativity in threads.



If you think a thread needs to be closed, then close it. Closing a thread that you are unsure about "for review" makes it easier to close threads as in the back of your mind it's not a perminant closure (although the effect on the users is the same), and has led to a LOT more thread closures than usual. Then if a thread is later reopened it just makes the users all the more frustrated.

I don't have statistics, but "closed for review" is a common action when a thread is reported and the staff do not know immediately what to do or are not active in that forum and didn't follow it.

Re-opening such threads hasn't made users more frusterated and they typically ask nicely and are happy when it is re-opened.




Lets be fair, obvious threads are closed outright, and anyone without an axe to grind (i.e. most people) will agree. If you're not sure, then it's more than arguable that the thread should stay open, and to close a thread like that is incredibly frustrating and doesn't make this place look too good to be frank.
I'd rather not be Frank (such a weird name for me).

I have a different a view. If one is unsure, closing for review and asking others for input is the perfect solution. It gives a thread's participants to cool off, it allows other mods to weigh in, it prevents it escalating, and itn't draconian and is very flexible.

Kernel Sanders
September 6th, 2008, 11:18 PM
That doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence at all.

1) This is something that has suddenly become commonplace. It never used to happen around here, and the forums were at lot more friendly as a result.

2) Forum moderation, particularly thread closures have fast become the number 1 complaint around here, from the resolution centre, to the odd comment in threads, to even complaints about this forum from other forums!

3) It isn't a policy that is used in ANY other forum, for those very reasons.

I really really don't see the point of it. "Closing for review" has led to many many thread being closed that arguably should have remained open. It frustrates the hell out of people and doesn't make this place look too good at all.

I really don't know what's happened around here this last year? We've suddenly got to the stage where this forum has gained a reputation for heavy handed moderation, and now we've got to the stage where even threads that are considered unsure are nipped in the bud?

This place used to have such a relaxed, community feel, but I really don't get that any more, and many others are starting to agree with me. It's a shame, because this is a great forum really :(

Oh well, i've raised my concern even though you choose to ignore it. I hope it did some good although I doubt it :(

According to some people, i'm lucky I haven't been infracted for even raising this issue :(

lukjad007
September 6th, 2008, 11:21 PM
Well, you did state your point politely, even if I disagree, so I don't see how you could be "infracted".

LaRoza
September 6th, 2008, 11:57 PM
That doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence at all.

1) This is something that has suddenly become commonplace. It never used to happen around here, and the forums were at lot more friendly as a result.

As I recall, the forums (certain subforums) were once wastelands of eternal flamewars. From when I first joined, things have improved a lot, and that is a lot considering this forum has grown massively over the same time.



2) Forum moderation, particularly thread closures have fast become the number 1 complaint around here, from the resolution centre, to the odd comment in threads, to even complaints about this forum from other forums!

Perhaps it is a technique that is too flexible and empowering, from now on, perhaps I should just Jail with no redirect? It is only noticed because the closed threads are still there. People rarely notice threads when the are disappeared. I have many cases where that is proved.



3) It isn't a policy that is used in ANY other forum, for those very reasons.

Most forums reserve the right to move, close or edit threads.



I really really don't see the point of it. "Closing for review" has led to many many thread being closed that arguably should have remained open. It frustrates the hell out of people and doesn't make this place look too good at all.

Then I will use the technique less. Many times, a closed for review thread dies. The interesting ones are revived and begun anew.

A perpetual unmarked graves seems to be the recommended course of action here.



I really don't know what's happened around here this last year? We've suddenly got to the stage where this forum has gained a reputation for heavy handed moderation, and now we've got to the stage where even threads that are considered unsure are nipped in the bud?

No, just more open. You don't know what you don't see and no one complains (which is why I have had a total of zero complaints about closing threads if I don't post on it)



This place used to have such a relaxed, community feel, but I really don't get that any more, and many others are starting to agree with me. It's a shame, because this is a great forum really :(

What parts? I thought you were talking about the OPP (as that seems to be the place where such actions are done more often as you stated). It didn't have a relaxed community feel at any time.



Oh well, i've raised my concern even though you choose to ignore it. I hope it did some good although I doubt it :(

Well, I will close for review less because of this. We aim to please ;)

Remember, almost every close for review is spurred by a report. Most reporters have a valid report and some action is required. It would be unfair to the forum to not pay attention to reports.



According to some people, i'm lucky I haven't been infracted for even raising this issue :(
Why? There is nothing wrong with giving feedback.

Oldsoldier2003
September 7th, 2008, 12:04 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.
/me takes off moderator hat and puts on normal user hat.

In my experience with boards, moderating , and online gaming over the years:

The big deal is people falsely have an impression that there is freedom of speech on the internet. There actually isn't. Boards and forums are private property and because of this they are run according to the wishes and at the discretion of the owner. In this case the owner chooses to have the forums run by the Forum council under a charter we call the CoC.

Although the Admins of this forum choose to allow a large amount of leeway in OPP in reality if they so chose OPP could only be about Purple ponies, posted on Wednesdays, only by users whose name have no vowels.

lukjad007
September 7th, 2008, 12:11 AM
Lol. I think that people misinterpret freedom of speech as freedom to say whatever they want about anything. That is false. Just try to step on a plane and start "free talking" about bombing planes.

Oldsoldier2003
September 7th, 2008, 12:15 AM
That doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence at all.

1) This is something that has suddenly become commonplace. It never used to happen around here, and the forums were at lot more friendly as a result.

Closures have always happened, people have been complaining about heavy handed moderation on this forum since before I even registered. Look at the res center and read the ubuntu haters websites. Closing for review at least gives you a possibility a thread will be reopened withought going through Res Center moderation.


2) Forum moderation, particularly thread closures have fast become the number 1 complaint around here, from the resolution centre, to the odd comment in threads, to even complaints about this forum from other forums!

They always have been. In almost any actively moderated forum thread closures will always be the number one complaint. They were the number one complaint when I worked for a game company as well. Oh and btw when i worked for the company, people complained about us closing threads and moderating on other boards as well- it's not a ubuntuforums specific think its human nature to go whine elsewhere...


3) It isn't a policy that is used in ANY other forum, for those very reasons.

I don't think you can honestly say that with ANY credibilty at all.


According to some people, i'm lucky I haven't been infracted for even raising this issue :(

Then the people you are listening to must be the same people causing all of these thread closings :) You haven't done anything to deserve an infraction by giving your feedback. In fact, simply posting that in your thread hurts the credibility of the statements to which I replied. Honestly I think you are freaking out over nothing and maybe a break from the forums might help you realize that it's not a big deal. There isn't a conspiracy and we aren't out to get you or anybody else.

KiwiNZ
September 7th, 2008, 01:54 AM
Lets try and enjoy this place and appreciate the work folks do for nothing.

Yes this may well be called last shot closure , so be it . I am growing increasingly sick of this team of hard working volunteers being attacked very which way.

I am closing this thread