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Ms_Angel_D
August 26th, 2008, 12:22 AM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?

Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?) I just get irritated with it sometimes.

Opinions, thoughts?

Angel

SpiffyBalak
August 26th, 2008, 04:43 PM
Male is just the default gender online.

I don't really mind it, because I get into lots of funny situations like this:

Salt: I mean, awesome you're the super king with all the great power and great responsibility.
Salt: I have women and money.
SpiffyBalak: what if you prefer men?
Salt: Well, SpiffyBalak.
Salt: That's something you have to come to terms with.
Salt: I dont know if the shoddy battle chat is the right place, though.
SpiffyBalak: I'm a girl
Salt: Oh.
shanx: <_<
shanx: ...

:lolflag:

elizabeth
August 27th, 2008, 04:26 AM
Opinions, thoughts?

One of my favorite articles about this subject is here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_17/109-OMG-Girlz-Don-t-Exist-on-teh-Intarweb-1

Brilliant :)

I've also blogged about encountering the issue in tech channels, which is always fun for stirring up lively comment discussion:

http://princessleia2.livejournal.com/316456.html

...and proves I have a lot of wicked cool, supportive friends.

Ms_Angel_D
August 27th, 2008, 05:18 AM
Thanks for the links Elizabeth I enjoyed reading both.

Stuff like this always reminds me of that scene from GI Jane where the black guy is telling her a story and the white dude is like I'm glad we've come a long way from that and the black dude is like "have we really?" I mean why do people have such a hard time believing that chick can be good at and enjoy techy stuff to..it's quite sad really.....

found this http://xkcd.com/322/ check it out..lol

elizabeth
August 27th, 2008, 12:56 PM
found this http://xkcd.com/322/ check it out..lol

In the #ubuntu-women IRC channel on irc.freenode.net (info about IRC here (http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Courses/IRC/)) we call that comic "Rule #322" :)

diwas
August 27th, 2008, 01:03 PM
beauty doesnt have brains...but i guess this post umm disobeys the new-tonnes of laws.

hehe.

starcannon
September 10th, 2008, 03:47 PM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?

Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?) I just get irritated with it sometimes.

Opinions, thoughts?

Angel

If an online handle is gender neutral, I generally go with "male". I figure its either a guy, or a gal who is wanting not to be known as a gal for various reasons. Anyway, I try to be respectful to a degree, I refuse to go so far as to be P.C. though.

Sef
September 11th, 2008, 12:33 AM
If an online handle is gender neutral, I generally go with "male". I figure its either a guy, or a gal who is wanting not to be known as a gal for various reasons. Anyway, I try to be respectful to a degree, I refuse to go so far as to be P.C. though.

That's why I prefer to use they as singular. On an historical note, they has been used as singular by people such as Chaucer and Shakespere.

Abras
October 5th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Well, when I'm talking to a group online I tend to say "guys." While the term technically only refers to men it's commonly used to refer to a group that is made up of both males and females. And it's more casual than say "ladies and gentleman" or something like that. I suppose you could try to stay as politically correct as possible, but come on! This is the Internet, so I think casual tolerance and acceptance is the best you can hope for.

Ms_Angel_D
October 6th, 2008, 08:52 AM
Well, when I'm talking to a group online I tend to say "guys." While the term technically only refers to men it's commonly used to refer to a group that is made up of both males and females. And it's more casual than say "ladies and gentleman" or something like that. I suppose you could try to stay as politically correct as possible, but come on! This is the Internet, so I think casual tolerance and acceptance is the best you can hope for.

I'm not talking about generalization, even I when referring to a group of people I will use the phrase "You Guys". What I'm referring to is the fact that someone blatantly refers to me as being male. Even after I've told them I was female they act their not sure whether to believe me or not.

I do see your point though, I just wonder why often times so many males have a hard time believing that a female could be on the internet, frequenting the same internet "Hang out" spots they do, such as a tech forum/chat, or FPS forum/chat. It seems to happen quite frequently and can be disturbing.

lian1238
October 6th, 2008, 09:35 AM
As a guy, I think girls who are good at using computers are cool. I mean, I've never actually met any girls who are actually good at them. They turn away at the sound of Ubuntu/Linux. Well, maybe there was one girl, who introduced Ubuntu to me but she never had the time to convert to Ubuntu herself. Using Ubuntu is just an example. You could be really good at Windows, or just computers in general. Come to think of it, I seldom meet guys who are computer-savvy. And I have yet to meet someone who uses Ubuntu (or other distros) and loves it.

Thanks for reminding me that there are girls out there on these forums. Can we request for a male/female under our avatars?

davidryder
October 6th, 2008, 09:48 AM
I think the assumption comes from the disparity between the number of women and men on the internet. I think it's awesome to see women interested in technology but it's not very common.

I think we probably all make assumptions about posters... I assume the poster is male unless otherwise indicated.

elizabeth
October 7th, 2008, 12:25 AM
Can we request for a male/female under our avatars?

I think you'll find a lot of opposition to this unless it's optional. I don't hide my gender, but a lot of women do because they don't want to deal with harassment.

It's also important to remember that not everyone sees gender in such black and white terms :)

lian1238
October 7th, 2008, 05:07 AM
I think you'll find a lot of opposition to this unless it's optional. I don't hide my gender, but a lot of women do because they don't want to deal with harassment.

It's also important to remember that not everyone sees gender in such black and white terms :)

Yup, it'd be optional of course. And the choices would be male, or female, and MAYBE "other". Just maybe. We should start a poll. :)

Sef
October 7th, 2008, 08:04 AM
I think you'll find a lot of opposition to this unless it's optional. I don't hide my gender, but a lot of women do because they don't want to deal with harassment.

I would be against it. It would not be an accurate gauge,and it could possibly create harrassment. Female names online are more likely to get harrassed than gender neutral ones, but the latter are more harrassed than male ones.


It's also important to remember that not everyone sees gender in such black and white terms

+1.

tariquepark
October 7th, 2008, 08:22 AM
hi all
i often wonder why some people are so interested in gender, i mean we all come here for the same reasons, either to ask for help or to offer help, and to discuss things relevant to ubuntu users ,so why should it matter whether male or female?
would anyone decline help because its from a female? or vice versa?
i dont think so
i do realise that to some it does seem to make a difference but then they are usually the ones that dont receive the help they need :)
cheers

Denestria
October 7th, 2008, 09:00 AM
On a board like this where the setting is controlled I don't mind if people know I'm a woman. However, in the online games I have played I usually let them assume I am a man unless it is someone I have spent enough time around to I know my gender isn't going to be an open invitation for harassment. I don't need or want legions of 16 year old morons (mentally or physically) who think they can say and do anything online because mommy isn't watching sending me private messages or for all of the game chat to become 'there are no girls on the internet' ad nauseam.

tariquepark
October 7th, 2008, 09:34 AM
On a board like this where the setting is controlled I don't mind if people know I'm a woman. However, in the online games I have played I usually let them assume I am a man unless it is someone I have spent enough time around to I know my gender isn't going to be an open invitation for harassment. I don't need or want legions of 16 year old morons (mentally or physically) who think they can say and do anything online because mommy isn't watching sending me private messages or for all of the game chat to become 'there are no girls on the internet' ad nauseam.

+1
even though i am a male i know a few people who do the same for those very reasons

elizabeth
October 8th, 2008, 01:27 AM
i often wonder why some people are so interested in gender, i mean we all come here for the same reasons, either to ask for help or to offer help, and to discuss things relevant to ubuntu users ,so why should it matter whether male or female?

A very good question. I'd love to spend all of my time simply doing more development in Debian and Ubuntu, indeed, that's why I started down this path. However, the issue of women in F/OSS is too big of an issue for me to ignore (as much as I've tried), so I spend more time than had planned working to even the balance and do things like reply to threads like this. I hope that someday I won't need to fend off sexist comments and inappropriate sexual advances, and more importantly, so women looking to get involved won't have to deal with it and so will be more interested in getting involved.


would anyone decline help because its from a female?

Yes. This has happened to me several times, and only when a male came along and explained the same thing I did (even using the same words!) was it accepted.

lian1238
October 8th, 2008, 09:29 AM
I really don't understand why people are such sexists. Are they just kids or even adults do such things? Whatever they are, they really need to grow up, and accept women as equal human beings and stop being so immature. I guess it's the patriarchal environmental in which they were raised?? Or they just think that discriminating others is fun. I, for one, won't discriminate other people, no matter what religion, culture, skin color, hair color, etc.. I'll try to remember to use sex-neutral 'they' instead of 'he' when referring to someone else. Or even better, I'll use their name. ;)

Lorelei-
October 15th, 2008, 09:28 AM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?

Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?) I just get irritated with it sometimes.

Opinions, thoughts?

Angel

Its happened to me too which I find fairly surprising as my usual internet pseudonym (as in the one I use on here) is quite a feminine one anyway and is actually used in some countries as a girl's name...and yet people still refer to me by the male third person pro-noun *rolls eyes*

It annoys me greatly that the assumption is that because I post on forums relating to technology that I must be male. (It also annoys me just at much that I see a lot of people on the mental health advocacy forum I contribute to assuming that all people with mental health issues must be female!).

Personally I tend to refer to people by their usernames until I know which gender they are, thus reducing the likelihood of making the wrong assumption and embarassing myself and annoying the other person.

FutanariKitty
October 22nd, 2008, 12:17 PM
How about being mistaken as male in offline?

Doesn't happen to me anymore, but it used to be a common problem. (For reference, I'm transgendered, and the first 1-1.5 years were hell when I only passed at a distance).

I could go on for HOURS about my theories on the subject, but I think a large part of it still revolves around the simple assumptions of gender roles that people still have in this day and age. Some people don't realize how viciously enforced gender conformity is, probably because, in a way, it's one of the first things we're subjected to from birth (think about baby clothes and toys, and how many parents may get upset if their male child wants to play with a doll).

While things have obviously improved as time progressed, there's still a very long way to go in this regard.


I think you'll find a lot of opposition to this unless it's optional. I don't hide my gender, but a lot of women do because they don't want to deal with harassment.

It's also important to remember that not everyone sees gender in such black and white terms :)

THANK YOU, big +1.

geekygirl
October 23rd, 2008, 05:31 AM
I dont get mistaken online for a male (refer to the user name - taken from what I get called at work hehe)

But I too am often mistaken in the street for a guy. Can be annoying especially when I just dress and act the way I do because thats what I am comfortable with!

I don't hide the fact I am a female, I just don't dress and act like your typical female, and because of that get treated as if there is something wrong with me by people who don't understand that everyone is different and we all have different ways of expressing who we are :)

I think most times it depends on how closed minded people are, and unfortunately where I live a large majority of people are closed mind - although people are getting better :D

FutanariKitty
October 23rd, 2008, 10:17 AM
I dont get mistaken online for a male (refer to the user name - taken from what I get called at work hehe)

But I too am often mistaken in the street for a guy. Can be annoying especially when I just dress and act the way I do because thats what I am comfortable with!

I don't hide the fact I am a female, I just don't dress and act like your typical female, and because of that get treated as if there is something wrong with me by people who don't understand that everyone is different and we all have different ways of expressing who we are :)

I think most times it depends on how closed minded people are, and unfortunately where I live a large majority of people are closed mind - although people are getting better :D

Heh, before I hit my androgynous phase, I used to do all sorts of crazy things like streak my hair red and black and wore miniskirts and fishnets to the crappy little job I had (customer service, you can imagine the implications there...). And, the town I lived in is one of those stereotypically xenophobic, bigoted, hillbilly towns. So you can guess I know where you're coming from :P

Surprisingly, the more confident I was, the more people actually accepted me, knowing full well that I was trans. The surprising part, to me, was that I actually never had a problem from any of the women that came through there (I had a theory that they would be just as bad as the men in the area, like I was 'invading' their gender or something). Nope, just the early-20's guys for the most part, and only in packs. They never had the nerve to talk trash when they were by themselves.

The advantage to working where I did was the fact that the place was an LGBT mecca for some random reason. I mean, out of 5 employees, at one point we had me (and MTF transgirl), an FTM, a lesbian, and a bisexual girl. The most 'average' of us was a 20yr. old Italian guy, and he was pretty out there as well :P

Back to the topic at hand, the only time I ever get mistaken as possibly being male is while gaming these days. World of Warcraft is about the only online gaming I partake in anymore, and the assumption is that anyone playing a female character is MORE than likely to be a guy. Especially if anything of a personal nature pops up in conversation (i.e. signifcant others). They hear I date women, and that reinforces the assumption. If I tell them I'm a lesbian, they tend to think I'm full of beans. Until we're running around in a dungeon and someone ALWAYS has to equate some negative event to 'thats gay'. One of the most FRUSTRATING things ever. Which is why I usually give one warning, then a boot from the group :P I don't tolerate that noise.

hellion0
October 30th, 2008, 10:18 AM
Only all the time. Probably half my fault for using a masculine nickname online... then again, I don't like dealing with all the "OMG there r no women on the interwebz" stuff either.

I guess I'm just picking the poison that's less likely to throw me into a homicidal rage. :P

scprosser
March 12th, 2009, 04:51 AM
As I read through this thread, I had to laugh my ar$e off!
Here is the experience my Wife and I had a few years back:

My wife has a very heavy online presence, she uses the handle Cricket (As in Jimminy Cricket, kinda an inside joke, cuz I refer to her as my conscience) We run on a lot of the same forums, and have never thought anything of it, one night we happened to be in a chatroom together, and without thinking, when she came in, since it was an informal, general chat, I said "*kiss* Hey babe, how was your day" (I was at work, she was at home). Well...lets just say that the fireworks show was of EPIC proportion! Some of the people that were in the chat, had known each of us for 2-3 years online (but not IRL), all of a sudden, the name calling began (You can imagine the terms that were used, because everyone ASSUMED that she was a he) So when I spoke up and said "You guys DO Realize that Cricket and I are married" Well that started round 2 of fireworks...mostly political about damned Equal rights for (I wont use the term)...the mod (who happens to be a LONGTIME IRL friend of the wife and I came online all of a sudden (I didn't realize that my wife and he had been chatting private as well, and she had OK'd what he did) and posted a pic of my wife (who I must say, even if it's just my personal opinion) is a rather nice looking woman. I couldn't believe the reactions! My wife had to log off because she was getting bombarded with obscene requests and messages.The fact that someone would automatically assume that someone they had chatted with for years was Gay, rather than jump to the conclusion that one of the users was FEMALE *GASP* just boggled my mind.

I feel for any of you who experience this issue, and HOPE to GODS that people get a clue and realize that THERE ARE GIRLS ONLINE! And a LOT of them ar e cute, and smart, and in some cases, MORE than capable of kicking your ar$e (My wife is working towards her 2nd Blackbelt!)

Ms_Angel_D
March 12th, 2009, 10:21 AM
As I read through this thread, I had to laugh my ar$e off!
Here is the experience my Wife and I had a few years back:

My wife has a very heavy online presence, she uses the handle Cricket (As in Jimminy Cricket, kinda an inside joke, cuz I refer to her as my conscience) We run on a lot of the same forums, and have never thought anything of it, one night we happened to be in a chatroom together, and without thinking, when she came in, since it was an informal, general chat, I said "*kiss* Hey babe, how was your day" (I was at work, she was at home). Well...lets just say that the fireworks show was of EPIC proportion! Some of the people that were in the chat, had known each of us for 2-3 years online (but not IRL), all of a sudden, the name calling began (You can imagine the terms that were used, because everyone ASSUMED that she was a he) So when I spoke up and said "You guys DO Realize that Cricket and I are married" Well that started round 2 of fireworks...mostly political about damned Equal rights for (I wont use the term)...the mod (who happens to be a LONGTIME IRL friend of the wife and I came online all of a sudden (I didn't realize that my wife and he had been chatting private as well, and she had OK'd what he did) and posted a pic of my wife (who I must say, even if it's just my personal opinion) is a rather nice looking woman. I couldn't believe the reactions! My wife had to log off because she was getting bombarded with obscene requests and messages.The fact that someone would automatically assume that someone they had chatted with for years was Gay, rather than jump to the conclusion that one of the users was FEMALE *GASP* just boggled my mind.

I feel for any of you who experience this issue, and HOPE to GODS that people get a clue and realize that THERE ARE GIRLS ONLINE! And a LOT of them ar e cute, and smart, and in some cases, MORE than capable of kicking your ar$e (My wife is working towards her 2nd Blackbelt!)

That's nuts....lol. You see my signature however if browse through even some of my recent posts on here you'll see I've have to correct person's who have referred to me as "he" or "Him" sometimes it's as if woman aren't expected to be smart and enjoy the IT world...lol.

Bryantos
March 16th, 2009, 02:03 AM
Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?)

I will pay you by the hour to convince my girlfriend to enjoy gaming. ;)

Back on topic, being a male, I honestly feel embarrassed when accidentally misidentifying the wrong sex online. More of a sad feeling because I feel like I insulted them. :redface:

RIT_girl
March 28th, 2009, 02:40 PM
I guess I'm lucky, I went with an obvious nickname because I was out of ideas and wanted to distinguish myself, and I'm rarely mistaken for a boy unless I'm playing hockey. Funny how that glass ceiling exists not only in technology, but in athletics, I played both college hockey and lacrosse while being an engineer....

But it does **** me off, but to have that satisfaction of beating a guy on a test who was mouthing off earlier in class, or to seriously embarrass a guy on the ice doesn't get better. My response is I'm going to stick out like a sore thumb, so I better watch my step and be better than average.

A recent episode that pisses me off: I graduate this May and got a job last Sept. that will pay for my masters and is a leadership rotational program. Told all my friends at college, and they assume its because I'm a girl. Nothing to do with the fact I've worked at this company for over 16 months and each time I left they rehired me within 2 weeks for another rotation, or that different groups argued over who would have me for the summer. It couldn't be the fact that I work my *** of at what I do, and I ask a lot of questions and make sure my work is solid. Must be the ****.

Nixie Pixel
April 10th, 2009, 12:18 PM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?
Not really, but it is hard to mistake my online name as male. ;)


BF2 Anyone?
Hell yes! I still play it....

cprofitt
April 10th, 2009, 02:23 PM
I have run several clans in games (World of Warcraft and Guild Wars are the most recent) and I have never seen the &quot;you must show us a picture&quot; question... but my groups always tend to be mature married folks who are not hunting for mates. I think part of the issue, for a male perspective, is that they want to 'hit' on the female (gamer guys are not notorious for being suave in real live) and do not want to later be burned that the 'girl' was really a dude. Silly, but most guys under the age of 18 are... well... um silly when it comes to girls. Interesting conversation though... sorry to hear you girls go through this all. As a father of two girls (one boy as well) I will have to help guide my daughters through this. The oldest (eight) has been on-line for four years. She has an email account and a blog.

polkadotteapot
April 10th, 2009, 02:56 PM
I'm glad this is actually being discussed. It has been well documented that outspoken female bloggers tend to get substantially more abuse than their male counterparts. And even trying to discuss the fact seemt to warrant more abuse. I'll tey and dig out the examples but I remember some particularly strong vitriol from the Guardian comments section regarding this.

This forum appears to be exemplary so far but on many others, especially non technical ones, when I talk about things I know the reaction does differ depending in my moniker and whether the assumption is I am male or female.

Most of my life I've had the 'Isn't that a man's job?' thrown at me for beer, engineering, and physics. You'll find a 'Why?' in response and a few technical musings nip that in the bud.

Sometimes, sadly, I don't mind the male assumption as often the female assumption is derogatory, and hard to change unless they listen to you because of the former.

Nixie Pixel
April 11th, 2009, 05:24 AM
I'm glad this is actually being discussed. It has been well documented that outspoken female bloggers tend to get substantially more abuse than their male counterparts. And even trying to discuss the fact seemt to warrant more abuse. I'll tey and dig out the examples but I remember some particularly strong vitriol from the Guardian comments section regarding this.
Tell me about it. My blog posts seem to do reasonably well (probably because I have most of the worst swear words flagged via anti-spam), but on Youtube it is a different story. For instance, I tried to open a discussion about a game called "Rapelay," that had recently been banned by Amazon, and some of the mildest comments were calling for me to be raped. Sometimes the children online can be pretty cruel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azK9PJB5rxk

cprofitt
April 11th, 2009, 09:52 PM
You gals must 'hate' girls like the one that works with AtheneWins (Tania).

Do you make your videos with Ubuntu Nixie Pixel?

Nixie Pixel
April 12th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Why would we hate Tania?

I've tried Cinelerra and Avidemux, but currently neither really meets my needs even as much as Windows Movie Maker HD does, much less Sony Vegas Pro. So I guess I have to amend my previous posts about only using Windows for gaming (+ video editing).

polkadotteapot
April 12th, 2009, 02:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azK9PJB5rxk[/QUOTE]

And what does your relative attractiveness have to do with your point!? I especially like the comment about you being dolled up like a model etc, if you were in an evening gown maybe, but in your normal clothes. Morons.

Good video blog though.

Nixie Pixel
April 13th, 2009, 03:27 AM
I wish I knew.. hyperbole is lost on Youtubers, too. Oh well.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

scourge
April 13th, 2009, 09:23 PM
Tell me about it. My blog posts seem to do reasonably well (probably because I have most of the worst swear words flagged via anti-spam), but on Youtube it is a different story. For instance, I tried to open a discussion about a game called "Rapelay," that had recently been banned by Amazon, and some of the mildest comments were calling for me to be raped. Sometimes the children online can be pretty cruel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azK9PJB5rxk

Wow, you tried to open actual discussion about a frickin' raping game on Youtube? Pretty brave. Without even looking at the comments (which I rarely do on Youtube), I have a pretty good guess how the discussion went. Anyone who still has some sanity and morals left, is going to agree with you that such a game is sick. The rest are hopeless nutcases with very predictable verbal output. And considering Youtube's unnaturally high nutcase-to-sane-person ratio, you know the outcome. That doesn't mean that it's a wasted effort. It's just a tough battle, and I respect you for trying.

Btw, it's not just women who get flamed. But the insults thrown at women are probably less clever, and mostly based on physical attributes. If you're ugly, they'll let you know about it. If you're attractive, they'll harass you in other ways. I'm a male, so life on the net is smooth sailing for me. People never call me a prostitute or call for my rape. They just tell me politely that it would be a pleasure to stab me in the face. They'll also settle for me getting a testicular cancer, as long as it's terminal.

arashiko28
April 25th, 2009, 06:46 PM
About a dozen times I get like "dude" or "man" and have to make the statement of being a girl.

XubuRoxMySox
July 14th, 2009, 06:07 PM
I think it's funny to be mistaken for the wrong gender. I have one of those androgynous names (like Leslie, or Pat, or Chris) that in most of my country (US) is considered "a girl's name." People assume I'm a girl when they see my name (Robin). I don't bother correcting them anymore, but it's interesting how differently I am treated by people who assume I'm a girl.

One often-seen assumption is that I'm some delicate little china doll that has no business being in the harsh, cruel technoworld, and people become patronizing.

Then there are the private messages (asl, what do u look like, do u have a boyfriend) which I ignore or block.

It has given me a new appreciation of what girls and women put up with online, especially in male-dominated forums (tech stuff mostly). I rarely get it in the mostly-female dance forums I visit.

I've been tempted to play along (but without misrepresenting my gender) and then spring it on some obnoxious hound that I'm a boy, just for payback, lol.

-Robin

kartangle1
July 15th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Such a great or wonderful information give me

wildnfree
August 27th, 2009, 11:14 AM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?

Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?) I just get irritated with it sometimes.

Opinions, thoughts?

Angel

There are two things I find most irritating about this trend:

The first is that I am suppossed to be complemented by being assumed to be male. But if I accidentally assume a male is female, then they are very offended, and I don't understand why.

The second thing that really bugs me is that once they realise I am female, then suddenly lots of comments pop up saying things like "wow! wildnfree is a girl!" and then all the other well documented reactions to a female online.

Ms_Angel_D
August 27th, 2009, 07:37 PM
You would think MMORPG's would be the last place where assumptions like this would take place, but I get them even more now that Play Guild Wars on a regular basis then I ever did before.

Though after changing my Avatar here as well as a Username change request, the assumptions have almost completely halted here on the UF. However I did receive a few "creepy" PM's which we're promptly blocked.

I keep wondering if I'll ever gain a certain level of numbness to being irritated or bothered by it, but then if this did happen and Nobody ever spoke out we would never make in progress....

oldos2er
August 27th, 2009, 09:52 PM
If you're like me, you just sigh, and get on with it. :)

Little Bit
August 27th, 2009, 10:18 PM
There are two things I find most irritating about this trend:

The first is that I am suppossed to be complemented by being assumed to be male. But if I accidentally assume a male is female, then they are very offended, and I don't understand why.

I've never seen a guy offended at being mistaken for a girl. I mistook Forestpixie for a girl (because I associated the word "pixie" with Tinkerbell or something I guess) and he didn't get all offended. He corrected me in a lighthearted way.

Dixiedancer is a boy who gets mistaken for a girl very frequently because for one thing, his name is Robin (commonly a girl's name too) and for another thing he's just downright pretty. But he's never offended at being mistaken for a girl. In fact he says he enjoys it because he admires girls so much. He too offers correction in a funny, lighthearted way.

That's all any of us needs to do - if we even feel the need to do so. Simply offer a friendly correction of the false assumption and give people the benefit of the doubt.



The second thing that really bugs me is that once they realize I am female, then suddenly lots of comments pop up saying things like "wow! wildnfree is a girl!" and then all the other well documented reactions to a female online.

That bothers me too. On one hand it's nice to be fawned over, but all too soon the "appreciation" turns into something a little less respectful. When it does, delete, ignore, whatever, and move on. Guys won't change, and we don't need to change either.

Amy

AbtZ
August 27th, 2009, 10:38 PM
I was going to post a tongue-in-cheek reply to this thread, but since nobody here knows me, and I think few appreciate my humor as much as I do, I will refrain from doing so.

In other words, instead of basically saying "That's the Internet. Deal with it.", I'll pose a question instead: Does it matter?

If yes, why?

Swagman
August 28th, 2009, 08:52 AM
I've never seen a guy offended at being mistaken for a girl. I mistook Forestpixie for a girl (because I associated the word "pixie" with Tinkerbell or something I guess) and he didn't get all offended. He corrected me in a lighthearted way.

Dixiedancer is a boy who gets mistaken for a girl very frequently because for one thing, his name is Robin (commonly a girl's name too) and for another thing he's just downright pretty. But he's never offended at being mistaken for a girl. In fact he says he enjoys it because he admires girls so much. He too offers correction in a funny, lighthearted way.

That's all any of us needs to do - if we even feel the need to do so. Simply offer a friendly correction of the false assumption and give people the benefit of the doubt.



That bothers me too. On one hand it's nice to be fawned over, but all too soon the "appreciation" turns into something a little less respectful. When it does, delete, ignore, whatever, and move on. Guys won't change, and we don't need to change either.

Amy


It can be quite funny sometimes. On another forum I frequent There is a user called Laurencevines. I had always assumed (for quite some time) her name was Lauren Cevines

Phail

It was actually Laurence Vines. Not that I'd made any inappropriate comments. He laughed it off... Along with the rest of the forum !!

macogw
August 30th, 2009, 01:41 AM
I was going to post a tongue-in-cheek reply to this thread, but since nobody here knows me, and I think few appreciate my humor as much as I do, I will refrain from doing so.

In other words, instead of basically saying "That's the Internet. Deal with it.", I'll pose a question instead: Does it matter?

If yes, why?

Invisibility? Just the other day, someone on IRC was saying something generalizing all women as being insane or some such. When told "I don't know anyone in the Ubuntu world" the person said "yes, that's because there are no women on IRC." Now, that person had probably simply never been *told* that anyone else was a woman, and so they assumed there were none around to be offended. I, however, raised my hand as a woman. Since they believed rather vehemently that there are no women on IRC, they asked for video proof that I'm a girl.

Maybe if we point out that we're girls, those sort will learn that they are not in an enclave of men and thus their sexist crap is not going to fly.

Arthur_D
August 31st, 2009, 10:16 PM
LOL, those guys should just be ignored.
I didn't expect a certain developer on a project to be a woman, but neither of us made any fuzz out of it. I just wrote that I got a little surprised, and she didn't mind that.

Why blow it out of proportions either way?

AbtZ
August 31st, 2009, 10:55 PM
Invisibility? Just the other day, someone on IRC was saying something generalizing all women as being insane or some such. When told "I don't know anyone in the Ubuntu world" the person said "yes, that's because there are no women on IRC." Now, that person had probably simply never been *told* that anyone else was a woman, and so they assumed there were none around to be offended. I, however, raised my hand as a woman. Since they believed rather vehemently that there are no women on IRC, they asked for video proof that I'm a girl.

Maybe if we point out that we're girls, those sort will learn that they are not in an enclave of men and thus their sexist crap is not going to fly.
If anything, isn't that a good way to find out who the idiots are? :)

But I see your point.

mossgarden
November 22nd, 2009, 01:01 AM
One time was actually quite amusing. I happened to come in one irc channel just when one of "the guys" had found out that I was woman and he didn't see me coming. :P


*ultraturquoise joined the channel*
x: ultraturquoise is female?!? O_O
y: yeah, she is :P
ultraturquoise: OMG NEWSFLASH!!!!!
ultraturquoise: I donít have *****
y: haha
y: i coulda swore..
*x does not like XChat*
x: XChat didnít tell me that ultraturquoise is here

I made little research and apparently my nick - that I had considered being rather on the feminine side - was to them more masculine (I guess I shoul have used the ultrapink...). I don't really care as long as reaction finding out my gender isn't "There are no girls online" etc crap

jrusso2
November 22nd, 2009, 01:31 AM
I am used to that but the line that there are no females on the internet really bugs me as particularly ignorant.

scourge
November 22nd, 2009, 02:20 PM
I am used to that but the line that there are no females on the internet really bugs me as particularly ignorant.

When I see that, I think of it as a sarcastic joke that makes fun of the outdated and ignorant conception. Kinda like the quote "640K ought to be enough for anybody" that I see every once in a while on technology-oriented forums.

Tomatz
December 5th, 2009, 12:54 AM
Yes i do and im only a baby :(

Banished
December 5th, 2009, 04:25 AM
(Tomatz you are an adorable baby)

I get mistaken for being a male all the time, but I guess it's kind of my fault I want it that way.
I play a lot of online games and I don't want someone to behave differently towards me just because of my gender. Once I get to know someone better, I'll let them know, and I've actually never had an immature response, no one has asked me for a photo or anything, nothing disrespectful.

Usually it's a quick apology for referring to me as a guy all that time and we carry on as usual.

Nixie Pixel
December 5th, 2009, 11:23 AM
Wow, you tried to open actual discussion about a frickin' raping game on Youtube? Pretty brave.
Wow, I never responded to this. I'm sorry!

Yeah, I found out the hard way what happens when your video is disliked by 4chan. :P

Oh, and to another question above - I have begun using Kdenlive as a video editor, and while it doesn't have all of the features of a Sony Vegas Pro, it definitely shows promise. My next one to try is OpenShot Video Editor. Gotta try to get rid of those MS tethers!

And nope, still not offended by people mistaking me for being male. Though my voice often comes across in games as being that of a 12-year-old boy, especially over the crappy XBox Live microphones. :D

BT1
December 11th, 2009, 07:01 PM
I guess it's just... society applying classes to gender as usual. Post in a computer forum, the default assumption is that you're a male between 15 and 65... post in a knitting forum and expect to be assumed to be a lady between 10 and 80. A few male friends and I have this issue when visiting "traditional woman territory" type sites like knitting and sewing, but cooking is becoming more unisex as you see more and more cooking shows on TV with male chefs.

It doesn't help that most guys have the similar experience of: "Wife/girlfriend/sister asks: 'What's a desktop manager?'" Out of all the female friends and relatives in my social circle (around 50 that I talk to regularly), not one of them are computer savvy beyond microsoft office. I've pushed, poked and prodded but to no avail because they still think of it as a waste of braincells. Only recently has my girlfriend gotten into tech stuff and that extends only to the Xbox 360 and games like Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row (both are games where you run around shooting people at random and running over old ladies...she says it helps her unwind after school/work... understandably).

On the flip side, 7 out of 10 of my male friends (over 100) are interested in computers and have them as a regular part of their day. And this is just random friends, I don't pick friends based on if they like computers or not lol.

I fear though that even though female computer users are dramatically on the rise, the gender identification associated with computer tech will continue to be the same for years, perhaps decades to come.

Forgive me though, but I will still consider every user I come across as a male until corrected because many males stomp off back in their caves when you consider them a female by default, or when you don't consider them a male in the first place lol (I've come across quite a few myself), and this is annoying when trying to get info from them. Women are more patient and when I am corrected it's never an issue between that lady and I again. Except that her "hotness" level raises 70% by default :P Yeah I know, but that's the "programming" I grew up with, and my "kernel" is too hard to patch . I'll take one "nerdy" computer familiar girl over a dozen "barbies" any day!

Threads like this help spread awareness of the issue though.

VastOne
December 11th, 2009, 07:15 PM
Wow, I never responded to this. I'm sorry!

Yeah, I found out the hard way what happens when your video is disliked by 4chan. :P

Oh, and to another question above - I have begun using Kdenlive as a video editor, and while it doesn't have all of the features of a Sony Vegas Pro, it definitely shows promise. My next one to try is OpenShot Video Editor. Gotta try to get rid of those MS tethers!

And nope, still not offended by people mistaking me for being male. Though my voice often comes across in games as being that of a 12-year-old boy, especially over the crappy XBox Live microphones. :D

lol, amusing story..My son is a 13 xBox phenom that you have most likely encountered. I do have a question... He is wanting to record video and sound from the xBox 360 and we are an all Ubuntu household...Do you have a recommendation for what I can get him to record so that he can upload to youtube? It does not necessarily have to feed to the computer until it is done (like a digital record of the game and then upload to computer) I am open to any suggestions.

PaulReaver
December 11th, 2009, 07:17 PM
Please don't flame me too much for this
but
Does gender really make a difference on the forums?

VastOne
December 11th, 2009, 07:23 PM
much deleted...

Forgive me though, but I will still consider every user I come across as a male until corrected because many males stomp off back in their caves when you consider them a female by default, or when you don't consider them a male in the first place lol (I've come across quite a few myself), and this is annoying when trying to get info from them. Women are more patient and when I am corrected it's never an issue between that lady and I again. Except that her "hotness" level raises 70% by default :P Yeah I know, but that's the "programming" I grew up with, and my "kernel" is too hard to patch . I'll take one "nerdy" computer familiar girl over a dozen "barbies" any day!

Threads like this help spread awareness of the issue though.

As I have tried to teach my children that there is no real skin color and to never consider it, wouldn't it be real easy to not assume any gender online?

aysiu
December 11th, 2009, 07:25 PM
Please don't flame me too much for this
but
Does gender really make a difference on the forums?
Yes, it does.

On Linux forums, if you are a woman who does not explicitly state her gender, people generally mistake you for a man (as you can see from this thread). You then have two choices: 1. "out" yourself as a woman or 2. "pass" as a man.

Obviously the first makes the most sense. You do run the risk, though, of people making a big deal about it "Cool! I didn't know there were girl geeks here!" or, worse yet, some kind of crude come-on or sexual harassment... or suddenly acting all condescending, as if a woman couldn't possibly know anything about technology. And then if people start making sexist jokes at women's expense, you either have to pretend to be "one of the boys" or be accused of having no sense of humor or having a thin skin.

And if you pass as a man, that's annoying too. The men here certainly don't have to "pass" as anything. They can just be themselves.

So both perceived gender and actual gender have real sociological consequences on a forum.

PaulReaver
December 11th, 2009, 07:31 PM
but if you use a gender nuetral username can you really blame them for assuming or not assuming correctly.

would you blame a blind deaf guy for the same mistake.
on forums people cannot see or hear you much like a blind, deaf guy.

remember they can only read the words you've typed.

VastOne
December 11th, 2009, 07:34 PM
Yes, it does.

On Linux forums, if you are a woman who does not explicitly state her gender, people generally mistake you for a man (as you can see from this thread). You then have two choices: 1. "out" yourself as a woman or 2. "pass" as a man.

Obviously the first makes the most sense. You do run the risk, though, of people making a big deal about it "Cool! I didn't know there were girl geeks here!" or, worse yet, some kind of crude come-on or sexual harassment... or suddenly acting all condescending, as if a woman couldn't possibly know anything about technology. And then if people start making sexist jokes at women's expense, you either have to pretend to be "one of the boys" or be accused of having no sense of humor or having a thin skin.

And if you pass as a man, that's annoying too. Then men here certainly don't have to "pass" as anything. They can just be themselves.

So both perceived gender and actual gender have real sociological consequences on a forum.

It is really unfortunate that some cannot evolve beyond such ugly behaviors. I believe that the anonymity of the net plays a major part in this...If you were at a social gathering for Ubuntu would people treat you any different there regarding race or gender? I think not as the exposure would keep people in check.

aysiu
December 11th, 2009, 07:52 PM
but if you use a gender nuetral username can you really blame them for assuming or not assuming correctly.

would you blame a blind deaf guy for the same mistake.
on forums people cannot see or hear you much like a blind, deaf guy.

remember they can only read the words you've typed.
It's better just not to assume either way.

I don't.

VastOne
December 11th, 2009, 07:59 PM
It's better just not to assume either way.

I don't.

Ditto.

+1

BT1
December 11th, 2009, 08:05 PM
As I have tried to teach my children that there is no real skin color and to never consider it, wouldn't it be real easy to not assume any gender online?

Could be easy? Sure. Effective when dealing with the current male bravado/camaraderie BS? No.

I've tried it both ways, and the lesser of two evils is playing to the male "bravado/camaraderie/BS" to get what I need. With women, it's 3 lines of text in a conversation:

Me: Hey dude, what's going on?
Girl-I-Thought-Was-A-Guy: Hey just for future reference, I'm a female.
Me: Oh I apologize, I'll keep that in mind sorry.
(usually a lot more apologizing lol)

With males there's a variety of expressions when you hurt their egos by saying you couldn't tell if they were male or female if it comes up.

As many women know, the male ego is generally a simple thing to work with. Feed it and it loves you. Neglect it, and it hates you. I can't get that crucial bit of networking info from that network guru when his unseen mid life crisis demands that I consider him a very masculine male from the first capitalized letter of my private message. (I've actually had that happen lol).

It's sad that I consider it a matter of necessity, but in the circles I run in, it is. Linux forums like this, I don't usually assign genders because I keep a very open mind about Linux... seeing how it's full of surprises lol.

I understand what you're saying though.

lisati
December 11th, 2009, 08:07 PM
I have a related problem: it didn't occur to me when I signed up to the forums that people might mistake me for a woman, i,e, Lisa Ti..... :) ("Lisati" is the Samoan language equivalent of "Richard")

PaulReaver
December 11th, 2009, 08:09 PM
You then have two choices: 1. "out" yourself as a woman or 2. "pass" as a man.

Have YOU ever mistaken a woman on the forum for a man?
And if she was to "2. pass as a man" for the sake of peace from the cavemen, how would you know?

please don't judge us all as ignorant. you sound just as guilty as the rest of us if not more so.

aysiu
December 11th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Have YOU ever mistaken a woman on the forum for a man?
And if she was to "2. pass as a man" for the sake of peace from the cavemen, how would you know?

please don't judge us all as ignorant. you sound just as guilty as the rest of us if not more so.
No, I haven't, because I don't assume anyone is a woman or a man here unless she or he explicitly says so... or unless, as with your username, the name seems to indicate a particular gender.

If someone did pass as a man, I wouldn't know. That's what passing means, by definition.

I don't judge you all as ignorant. You specifically asked if gender matters online, and I explained why it does.

VastOne
December 11th, 2009, 08:43 PM
With males there's a variety of expressions when you hurt their egos by saying you couldn't tell if they were male or female if it comes up.

As many women know, the male ego is generally a simple thing to work with. Feed it and it loves you. Neglect it, and it hates you. I can't get that crucial bit of networking info from that network guru when his unseen mid life crisis demands that I consider him a very masculine male from the first capitalized letter of my private message. (I've actually had that happen lol).

It's sad that I consider it a matter of necessity, but in the circles I run in, it is. Linux forums like this, I don't usually assign genders because I keep a very open mind about Linux... seeing how it's full of surprises lol.

I understand what you're saying though.

"The Male Ego" sounds universal and a manipulative tool..(said tongue in cheek). I would hope there are more like me without a said ego who can see beyond barriers that limit us from learning and growing and understanding. I think I would simply find a better network guru and leave that one in his own bitter stew...

I agree it is sad that we have to relate to issues such as gender and race as a matter of necessity, I hope one day we find our prime directive and become just one!

I like the open mind philosophy as well of Linux users and this forum and enjoy the day to day surprises such as this discussion.

The best gift is the one you never expect...

bobbob1016
December 11th, 2009, 08:50 PM
Let me start by saying I'm a guy. However, it is easier to say "that is what he said" or something along those lines, than it is to ask first. Since most of the time in some areas it'd be more of a time waster.

For instance, if I call a craft store and ask if they have something, and the person on the line thinks I sound like a woman, even a little, they'll refer to me as such. I've also had to call my ISP a few times, and they've said "do you have any other questions ma'am?"

Now MMO's should be more gender neutral, but a forum mainly for tech support would presumably have more men than women.

I think it is quicker to think the default and be wrong in a minority of cases, than it is to alway ask. This can however cause people to think something is still the default even after it isn't. As in if there weren't browser ID's most people would think IE has most if not all of the marketshare.

Just my two cents.

pricetech
December 11th, 2009, 08:58 PM
Men are not pigs. Pigs are gentle, sensitive creatures.

Just thought I'd start with that.

I'm an old guy, probably older than most on the forum. (an assumptions based upon the demographic of my contemporaries in IT)

The culture I grew up in had its share of gender specifics. Cooking and housekeeping were "woman's work" while cutting the grass and driving the tractor was "men's work". I served in the military during a time when women were just beginning to move into traditionally male dominated fields.

The end result of that is a subconscious mindset that most, though not all, of the posters I encounter are male. I don't think about it that way, it's just a subconscious assumption based upon past experience.

In spite of that, I have no problem with women being computer technicians, auto mechanics, truck drivers, or anything else that used to be considered "man's work". Like the racial stereotypes I encountered in my upbringing, I left that behind when I grew up. I'm glad that women are in the field. I hope I don't sound like I'm stereotyping when I suggest that women do look at things differently sometimes and that might be exactly the point of view that leads to a solution.

In summary, I might assume that others on the forum are male unless otherwise noted, but I don't make that assumption consciously and I hope I don't offend someone if I do. If so, I assure you I mean no harm.

Just an old guy's thoughts on the subject.

doas777
December 11th, 2009, 08:58 PM
I don't generally see a lot of gender exclusive content on these forums, except in one place.

PaulReaver
December 11th, 2009, 09:16 PM
learning and growing and understanding.


That's ultimately why I've been asking these questions.


I agree it is sad that we have to relate to issues such as gender and race as a matter of necessity.

Why is it sad?

what would be best would be if people could discuss gender and race without instantly assuming it is a competition. There are good points to being different.

If you don't ask and never mention these things, How will you learn? Or do you already know everything?

VastOne
December 11th, 2009, 09:23 PM
That's ultimately why I've been asking these questions.



Why is it sad?

what would be best would be if people could discuss gender and race without instantly assuming it is a competition. There are good points to being different.

If you don't ask and never mention these things, How will you learn? Or do you already know everything?

What I do know is that if I do not "see" race or gender, it is not an issue and therefore not an influence or a burden or a mode of thinking at all.

Why is it that you feel the need to be confrontational with your responses? You ask good questions and then shoot yourself in the foot with a snipe at the end?

XubuRoxMySox
December 11th, 2009, 10:24 PM
I am frequently mistaken for a girl online when I write about dance ("oh, I assumed you were a girl because you're a dancer") or because my name is Robin ("ain't that a girl's name?"). I never bothers me. Even when guys flirt with me. I just think it's funny and I try to imagine the look on their faces when I correct their false assumptions.

I don't imagine it's the same for a woman who is mistaken for a guy, though. But I think the response to it maybe should be the same. Just laugh and move on.

-Robin

pricetech
December 11th, 2009, 10:27 PM
Even when guys flirt with me. I just think it's funny and I try to imagine the look on their faces when I correct their false assumptions.

That would be especially amusing if you happen to be muscular and bearded. I'd like the proverbial fly on the wall if that's the case.

ElSlunko
December 11th, 2009, 10:33 PM
My g/f mistakes me for a woman in person sometimes.

stinger30au
December 11th, 2009, 10:36 PM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?

yeah all the time... im hearing ya

elizabeth
December 12th, 2009, 02:00 AM
If you were at a social gathering for Ubuntu would people treat you any different there regarding race or gender? I think not as the exposure would keep people in check.

I wish this were the case, but it't not. While behaviors may change (less outright harassment in most cases) I have seen women be ignored at Linux meetings - just recently at an Ubuntu release party where everyone thought a woman was "there as someone's mother" and decide not to talk to her about Ubuntu - she was thankful when I finally started talking to her. Or they're simply assumed to be clueless, my own experience with this was a LUG (which I now run) where a fellow asked the friend I came with and was standing next to "Oooh, does your girlfriend use Linux too?" I was not his girlfriend and had been using Linux longer than the fellow who asked - and I was standing right there! If I didn't have supportive friends at that LUG I wouldn't have gone back, it gets tiring to have to prove to everyone you're not clueless all the time, especially back before I did Linux work professionally.

VastOne
December 12th, 2009, 02:27 AM
I wish this were the case, but it't not. While behaviors may change (less outright harassment in most cases) I have seen women be ignored at Linux meetings - just recently at an Ubuntu release party where everyone thought a woman was "there as someone's mother" and decide not to talk to her about Ubuntu - she was thankful when I finally started talking to her. Or they're simply assumed to be clueless, my own experience with this was a LUG (which I now run) where a fellow asked the friend I came with and was standing next to "Oooh, does your girlfriend use Linux too?" I was not his girlfriend and had been using Linux longer than the fellow who asked - and I was standing right there! If I didn't have supportive friends at that LUG I wouldn't have gone back, it gets tiring to have to prove to everyone you're not clueless all the time, especially back before I did Linux work professionally.

I am sorry at how uncouth these people have treated you...

I guess I am giving too much credit or hope that there is a bigger better smarter stronger person/evolution when it comes to issues such as race or gender or stereotyping an individual. And I do not mean just in this Linux/Ubuntu growth, but everywhere.

When will we ever get beyond it? There were revolutions in the 60's over equality, peace and the end of war/hate. We were told to teach our children and a lot of us have, but where is the unity now? Can there be a stand against such blatant low standards of values? Or are we just too happy and fat with our riches to ever care enough?

Sorry for the rant... I really get disgusted at such poor treatment of people

zephyrblade
December 12th, 2009, 02:41 AM
This thread has me thinking about assumptions in general

Here's a hypothetical:

You have not yet met your new doctor, Dr. R. Singh, and you 'automatically' assume that the doctor is an Indian man.

Of course, this assumption is not automatic at all. It is based on your experience that

(a) the very large majority of doctors are men
(b) that 'Singh' is a very popular Indian surname
(c) there is disproportionately high representation of Indians doctors practicing in the New Zealand health system.
(etc...)

Imagine the embarrassment when that red-headed woman (that you assumed was the nurse) was actually your doctor!




Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?) I just get irritated with it sometimes.

Opinions, thoughts?

Angel

Yes - I'd definitely assume that would be part of it, along with a lot of other assumptions as well.

I can imagine how this would be very irritating, ( at least after the 100th time), but is it not understandable?

I do not feel guilty for making such assumptions.

There's nothing inherently wrong with making assumptions - it's a great cognitive time-saving method.

If everyone had to constantly question everything that they thought was probably true, I don't think much would get done.

What IS wrong is not being mindful of this process - it was really only assumptions that led you to that 'fact' that you 'know' is 'right'. This is a pretty easy to mistake to make.

Here's an assumption of mine; that some people can take this way too personally.

When someone makes this mistake (of assuming something that isn't true), they may likely feel quite embarrassed at having their assumptions revealed - how they react after that is down to them.

It sounds like some woman feel that if they 'reveal their identity' then they will need to 'brave the consequences' - that is sad.

Not ALL males are knuckle-dragging, ego-seeking, sex-crazed maniacs intent on crushing woman lest they dare show face.

Just the ones that post on Youtube are.

vajorie
December 12th, 2009, 04:02 AM
Here's a hypothetical:

You have not yet met your new doctor, Dr. R. Singh, and you 'automatically' assume that the doctor is an Indian man.

Of course, this assumption is not automatic at all. It is based on your experience that

(a) the very large majority of doctors are men
(b) that 'Singh' is a very popular Indian surname
(c) there is disproportionately high representation of Indians doctors practicing in the New Zealand health system.
(etc...)


I think your hypothesis missed an element that many of these posts have been pointing to, which seems to be a fourth step that is imbricated in the previous three steps...

That's the part where you, as the patient, go "Oh my god, why did I come here, why am I seeing an Indian doctor? Those incompetent bastards." I saw this actually happen to people (I was working on insurance issues, in US, with patients), and that step is almost never as obviously disgusting as the above imaginary quote suggests.

So, what's my point? The above posts don't just suggest some "assumptions" that are politically neutral, "very irritating ... but ... understandable". They point out to the ways in which a world is constructed, by many of that world's participants, as exclusively a male space, where women and femininity are not only supposed not to exist, but when they do assert such existence[1], they are erased in one way or another, such as via suggestions that they are no good according to the standards of goodness of that world, that they are nothing but bodies to be used, that they should be subject to symbolic violence, that they should just stfu and respond to male desires the way those desires dictate themselves in that world, and so on.

And once you start seeing that (above imaginary) "quote" made more and more obvious to you (as in via communications like the above, on sexism and heterosexism), I think what you will feel angry, not guilty... Possibly urging yourself to neutralize the threat that makes you angry... And hopefully, you will be feeling, finally, one day, angry at yourself, so that you may change after that process...

[1] possibly because their existence make the occupants of that space remember their inferiority complexes with their own manhood as well as the very idea that they are in an assumed all-male space --a space that always runs the risk, at least in the imaginary of its occupants, to turn from homosocial to homosexual. And it seems like that very possibility would be fundamentally threatening to the self-illusions of superiority of these occupants.

Gene Rodgers
December 12th, 2009, 05:09 AM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?

Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?) I just get irritated with it sometimes.

Opinions, thoughts?

Angel
I'm often mistaken for a FEMALE, (just the reverse) as my name is Gene but lot of people spell it Jean. Just live with it!

chillicampari
December 12th, 2009, 05:48 AM
...

So both perceived gender and actual gender have real sociological consequences on a forum.

Bingo. I originally wrote a whole lot of tl;dr, that I may post up someday after much editing, but I've been online since '92 and have either seen or experienced a lot of things mentioned in the thread, and some things not mentioned, that I don't even know should be brought up here.

But yeah, things can be really different depending on what you gender is assumed or known to be.

XubuRoxMySox
December 12th, 2009, 10:57 AM
I have seen women be ignored at Linux meetings ... Or they're simply assumed to be clueless, my own experience with this was a LUG ...

My friend Amy and I had a bad experience (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1220785) with a LUG too, in part because of gender but also age. I think it's assumed not only that "girls aren't geeky" but also that kids aren't serious about anything, or aren't to be taken seriously. It seemed to me that Amy and I were the only ones being serious (or at least sincere) at our first and only LUG meeting.

The good news, though, is that Amy got her school's computer club to listen, and even let her do a presentation about Linux (http://www.linuxforums.org/articles/non-geeky-girls-love-linux-too-_368.html). And she has a heavily modified Ubuntu remix on one of the school's computers.

False assumptions about age are similar to assumptions about gender. Except that the former are (usually) outgrown eventually, lol. Hopefully our culture will also outgrow negative and damaging gender biases. Unfortunately that takes longer.

-Robin

BT1
December 13th, 2009, 12:27 AM
For those pointing out online gaming, I've got to point out a few things about accepting that the person saying they are a woman is actually a woman:

1.) Smaller Numbers. Most of the male user base of online games have had similar experiences playing a full day, or days without a woman being anywhere around their online in game "party" (as in group of players fighting in a virtual dungeon together), and for some the experience is very rare. I've played MMORPGS (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) since Ultima Online (over 10 years) and I am STILL surprised to see a female in a group or party I have joined up in.

2.) Fake-Females. I've had personal experience with this, but there's been a number of times where 3 out of 4 people who said they were females turned out to be males wanting free stuff or sympathy in an online game. Growing up, females were so rare that any one of my friends who pretended to be one for long enough excelled past my own "level" and treasure. Many males who have experienced this have been burned and remained skeptical to this day.

3.) Offline Attention. Males today meet very few women in school or work today that show an active interest in online games or advanced technical stuff. The experience is rare enough to program male minds that there "can't be" (as in less than likely isn't...) that much of a female presence online. It's a sad programming but one that many a male has received.

I'm not defending males for defaulting to an assumption, but just pointing out the obvious programming many long time male users experience. I see that many females here are sympathetic to males who don't mean harm and quickly correct their error when the issue comes up, but just have patience! ;)

All throughout history (especially in America) when a group of individuals wanted recognition and "equal" status, they stood up and made their voices known. That doesn't need to stop at the Ethernet wire.

I'm going to do my part and try to reprogram my default assumption, and others need to do the same.

BT1
December 13th, 2009, 12:35 AM
I wish this were the case, but it't not. While behaviors may change (less outright harassment in most cases) I have seen women be ignored at Linux meetings - just recently at an Ubuntu release party where everyone thought a woman was "there as someone's mother" and decide not to talk to her about Ubuntu - she was thankful when I finally started talking to her. Or they're simply assumed to be clueless, my own experience with this was a LUG (which I now run) where a fellow asked the friend I came with and was standing next to "Oooh, does your girlfriend use Linux too?" I was not his girlfriend and had been using Linux longer than the fellow who asked - and I was standing right there! If I didn't have supportive friends at that LUG I wouldn't have gone back, it gets tiring to have to prove to everyone you're not clueless all the time, especially back before I did Linux work professionally.

Lol... I'm Native American (brown skin) and I once had to bring my sister to a prenatal clinic exam (she was preggers ^_^) and I went to the front to sign her in. Well I was standing by this Hispanic woman and the nurse nearby started asking me questions about "the baby" and I was thinking she was speaking about my sister so I was standing there for 5 minutes answering questions until she turned and looked at the hispanic lady (who didn't speak a lick of english, but thought the white nurse was speaking to me on her behalf) and told her (in limited spanish) that she had a very knowledgeable husband and that she was very lucky. We turned to look at each other and burst out laughing. Even when I was in the physician's office, he mistook me (the nearest brown skinned male sitting by a brown skinned pregnant female) as my sister's boyfriend or husband.

Those kinds of things happen online and off, so don't get disheartened. Time changes minds, and those that refuse to change theirs spend an eternity being remembered as idiots. ;)

pricetech
December 14th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Lol... I'm Native American (brown skin) and I once had to bring my sister to a prenatal clinic exam (she was preggers ^_^) and I went to the front to sign her in. Well I was standing by this Hispanic woman and the nurse nearby started asking me questions about "the baby" and I was thinking she was speaking about my sister so I was standing there for 5 minutes answering questions until she turned and looked at the hispanic lady (who didn't speak a lick of english, but thought the white nurse was speaking to me on her behalf) and told her (in limited spanish) that she had a very knowledgeable husband and that she was very lucky. We turned to look at each other and burst out laughing. Even when I was in the physician's office, he mistook me (the nearest brown skinned male sitting by a brown skinned pregnant female) as my sister's boyfriend or husband.

Those kinds of things happen online and off, so don't get disheartened. Time changes minds, and those that refuse to change theirs spend an eternity being remembered as idiots. ;)

I've had similar experiences in the company of contemporaries with other folks assuming that the woman I was in the store with was my wife. I just ignored it. But I was a little annoyed when I took a young lady who was a student at the local technical school and had gone with me on a service call to assist and learn, to lunch afterwards and a friend of my Wife who was a waitress almost hovered over our table "keeping an eye on me".

Another false assumption; I was with a woman who wasn't my Wife, so I must have been cheating on her.

ceciliaFX
December 15th, 2009, 04:25 PM
on the subject of "fake females": I have never joined a message board/mailing list or whatever and then announced I am 'female'. I would be very suspicious of anyone doing that.

if someone came on and posted - 'hey, I'm a guy!' wouldn't that sound weird?

Nixie Pixel
December 17th, 2009, 03:13 PM
lol, amusing story..My son is a 13 xBox phenom that you have most likely encountered. I do have a question... He is wanting to record video and sound from the xBox 360 and we are an all Ubuntu household...Do you have a recommendation for what I can get him to record so that he can upload to youtube? It does not necessarily have to feed to the computer until it is done (like a digital record of the game and then upload to computer) I am open to any suggestions.
Well, you'll need a hardware solution. Any number of video capture cards can handle this (unless it is an XBox 360 Elite and you're putting out DVI/HDMI output), but the solution that worked best for me is a Hauppauge HD PVR.

Beware, though, that is an expensive solution...but I wanted it for more than just XBox recording.

Shufei
January 1st, 2010, 08:00 AM
This is a repeated topic in my family. Being raised by a mother who is a hacker and top-tier webmistress, the equation of computing skill to femininity was strongly connoted. I myself posess no elite skills and have mostly stayed to communities where being a woman is not cause for issue. (Except for flightsimming where the "boys club" atmosphere does prevail if in a usually polite vein.) However my mother often writes or remarks on her "invisibility" in tech geek environments. On the one hand she is a writer for oft disparaged domestic subjects considered the domain of women. But her medium is one long stereotyped the purview of men. Online she balances her supermatron web persona with the gender neutral (assumed male) hacker identity she needs to interface with her tech peers. The odd and sad thing is that in person with male geek cabal meetups, she isn't just snubbed or ignored. She's come to realize many such bright young men can't even see her. Due to gender and also her middle age, for a shamefully large percentage of male geeks, she is utterly invisible. If there are "no girls on the Internet" then a 55 year old mature lady hacker is for many a cognitively imparsible construct! Yet online she is a respectable hardware hacker to those same boys. Mother takes it in stride. We often musingly chuckle at how many wallpaper ladies reading their kindles at Seattle cafes are actually uberleet network crackers who solder mobos, script clean code, and reflash chips for fun and profit!

It does make one reflect on the probability that the VAST majority of tech savvy women never are seen as women online and especially eschew meatspace id as such. Worse, when they dare to show up, they are simply invisible due to hegemonies of gender and age. Yet I strongly suspect they exist in far greater numbers than we assume, like Fremen. Underestimate that force at your peril.

So this is why womens tech groups are imperative. Many men not only can't see a problem. All too often they can't even see US.

For myself, when ludely propositioned or disrespected by male cliques, I largely find it easy to mute said punks. Easy enough online. When face to face with disagreeably disenfranchising persons, I likewise simply mark that person mentally as unworthy of communication and continue a productive exchange with those for whom my gender is no choking point. Quid pro quo. Of course this works best in situations pretending to professionalism or civility, but even in largely male groups such offenders often just disappear in plain view if done with the proper finesse. The social and intellectual snub is a sword which cuts both ways, boys.

dunomous
January 2nd, 2010, 01:25 AM
This is a repeated topic in my family. Being raised by a mother who is a hacker and top-tier webmistress...

I am a male and my apologies if this section of the boards prohibit male input (or a girls club, rather).

1) Pardon my ignorance of the culture, but I thought shufei was a males name? Or is it actually a last name? I know that asian cultures generally list their last name first and I'm wondering if I've made this mistake with a co-worker of mine (a male named shufei. I also thought it'd be spelled xufei.)

2) Being a male in the science world in general (as well as the arts world), I can say that a sudden unforeseen influx of women is not intimidating or insulting, but rather an abrupt culture shock. To be so used to never seeing women in my classes and workplace and then suddenly there are many around me (either online or in person) is just something that takes getting used to. If you've ever moved to a different culture and understand culture shock, you get that it's not better or worse; just different. Many do not handle culture shock well, and I think that's what you see happening often.

3) I love girls who love science! But this is the same as finding girls who just share common interests in general. I have a distaste for males who fluster over the idea of female "abnormality," whether they like video games, science, or anything else they would not expect them to be interested in. Again, however, it is a coping mechanism for change. This means, for the females who brave the abrupt change that occurs for all the males, they either have to have tough skin or a forgetful memory.

I, myself, don't mind any changes and don't really see it as anything taboo; but more as just growing pains. However, it is important to note that for many male nerds in high school who separated themselves from the supposed jock-ruled world and created a safe-haven for their niche ideas, it could come off as invading for girls to rush back into the picture and remind them of a vulnerable time period that they were not very fond of. So, for many it could result in a backlash, for others, a subservient path of humility and servitude (they'll gladly bow to the female world for female attention, in a sense), or those who don't really care at all. I hope this sheds a little light at least from the male's perspective.

vajorie
January 2nd, 2010, 06:13 AM
I am a male and my apologies if this section of the boards prohibit male input (or a girls club, rather).

It's always a good idea to read the stickies of a forum subsection before posting, in order to avoid getting negative reactions from those who try to maintain and use it. Here's from said sticky (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34679):


It is NOT meant to separate women from the rest of the community.


On the other hand, I find your attempt to ridicule this section (a girl's club?) because you thought it did not allow male input (how dare!) quite pitiful.



1) Pardon my ignorance of the culture, but I thought shufei was a males name? Or is it actually a last name?
I see no point of this question. Are you trying to call into question the poster's claim to authority by implying that it's an imposter? When a claimed identity and an ascribed identity do not match up, is that grounds for dismissal for you?



2) Being a male in the science world in general (as well as the arts world), I can say that a sudden unforeseen influx of women is not intimidating or insulting, but rather an abrupt culture shock.

I wonder how honest you are being. Do you think women just decided to "influx" that world, as if they are traveling like site-seeing tourists? The "culture" you are referring to seems to have ingrained with various male-centered rules that prohibited female intrusion (I am implicating the culture you are implying that you are part of with abuse of coercive power; something you tried to dismiss by using the convenient word "culture shock").



To be so used to never seeing women in my classes and workplace and then suddenly there are many around me (either online or in person) is just something that takes getting used to.

I'd like to call BS on this one. I also wonder what other women (who were around you) you rendered invisible by this very statement.



If you've ever moved to a different culture and understand culture shock, you get that it's not better or worse; just different. Many do not handle culture shock well, and I think that's what you see happening often.

Your concepts tend to betray you here. Culture shock happens to those who travel from their homes to "alien" places and become "shocked" by the traditions and norms of these places. In your analogy, it would be women who would be having culture shock, as you (according to many accounts here as well as your) could be considered as an insider to the culture women have "arrived".



3) I love girls who love science!


Isn't that a bit arrogant, to say the least? Is this opening statement something like "I have many ___ friends" or "my best friend is a ___"? Reading the next sentence, I think it is more like "I'm not a ___ or anything but" [followed by some kind of ___ statement].



But this is the same as finding girls who just share common interests in general.

Is this how you approach your male colleagues as well, like potential mates?

(...)


(they'll [some men] gladly bow to the female world for female attention, in a sense)

One should clarify this ---as long as that "female attention" is what they desire... for there are many forms of "female attention".

dunomous
January 2nd, 2010, 07:30 PM
haha, okay. Wow. Where to start?


It's always a good idea to read the stickies of a forum subsection before posting, in order to avoid getting negative reactions from those who try to maintain and use it. Here's from said sticky (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34679):

Ah, thank you!



On the other hand, I find your attempt to ridicule this section (a girl's club?) because you thought it did not allow male input (how dare!) quite pitiful. haha, this was by no means meant to ridicule. Due to not having read the sticky, I didn't know if this section of the forum was women only. The poster to whom I was replying to had used the term "boy's club" in her post and so it was merely reflexive, no insult implied.



I see no point of this question. Are you trying to call into question the poster's claim to authority by implying that it's an imposter? When a claimed identity and an ascribed identity do not match up, is that grounds for dismissal for you? "shufei" or "xufei" are chinese names. The culture I was referring to was the asian system of usually putting their last name first. I'm not too familiar with the culture enough to be certain, which is why I was asking.



I wonder how honest you are being. Do you think women just decided to "influx" that world, as if they are traveling like site-seeing tourists? The "culture" you are referring to seems to have ingrained with various male-centered rules that prohibited female intrusion (I am implicating the culture you are implying that you are part of with abuse of coercive power; something you tried to dismiss by using the convenient word "culture shock"). The rise of attention or presence of women in computing is one that has certainly skyrocketed in the past decade with the help of today's internet penetration into our society. There are current programs by many computer science colleges in universities across the world (led by women, mind you) to interest women into the engineering and computing field.

Using the culture shock to explain the behaviour of males in my field is quite direct. If you've been used to a predominantly-male field or just gaming/forums/internet et al, and you find many more females than you would have guessed, it's something new that any male has to adjust to (some better than others). Also, in this world, I've never really seen any rules so much as trends, habits, prevailing ideas, you know, a culture. I'm not using the word to hide anything, but to rather help explain what has happened.



I'd like to call BS on this one. I also wonder what other women (who were around you) you rendered invisible by this very statement. This is a fair rebuke. The average count of women per class was 1.5. This is by no means BS. In the majority of cases, I worked with most of them on projects from class to class. They did just as much work as any one else and were ... normal students. They did not go unnoticed (as I still chat with them as I would any other colleague outside of class). Due to such a small number, I used "no" or "none" in terms of relativity. I apologize.



Your concepts tend to betray you here. Culture shock happens to those who travel from their homes to "alien" places and become "shocked" by the traditions and norms of these places. In your analogy, it would be women who would be having culture shock, as you (according to many accounts here as well as your) could be considered as an insider to the culture women have "arrived". Well, having moved from Germany to the US, I certainly understand culture shock. As I've stated before, the signs of culture shock are certainly present in the internet and such world, but not amongst females (in my analogy); but for males. This was the whole point of my response was to inform the women that most men are reacting with either apathy, hostility, or a variety of different ways to the emerging presence of women. This is no war or such as the like, just a normal happening.



Isn't that a bit arrogant, to say the least? Is this opening statement something like "I have many ___ friends" or "my best friend is a ___"? Reading the next sentence, I think it is more like "I'm not a ___ or anything but" [followed by some kind of ___ statement]. This sentence was meant to be paired with the following one, so I shall address it where you have quoted it (below).



Is this how you approach your male colleagues as well, like potential mates? I believe, you've missed the point of what I've said. We all have our turn-ons and areas of interest. When you share this interest with others, general friendships can occur. If that area of interest is shared with someone you're attracted to (both physically and relationally, such as their personality, traits, etc..), it can be a turn on.

In any case, saying I like girls who are interested in science was only an example. A lot of my friends love science and that's something we share when we hang out!



One should clarify this ---as long as that "female attention" is what they desire... for there are many forms of "female attention"."Female attention" is only to mean interaction. If an individual is longing for someone else's attention, I don't think they mind how that attention is paid to them.

wieman01
January 3rd, 2010, 10:20 AM
dunomous, just for the record: 北美洲 = North America (Chinese).

dunomous
January 3rd, 2010, 08:31 PM
dunomous, just for the record: 北美洲 = North America.

Ah, thank you for letting me know! Regardless, it's chinese, no? It really requires the response from the poster to whom I posed the question.

howlingmadhowie
March 10th, 2010, 10:55 PM
Yes. This has happened to me several times, and only when a male came along and explained the same thing I did (even using the same words!) was it accepted.

that makes me sad :(

sometimes modern society in general makes me sad. i find it helps to consider how much better it has become in the last 100 odd years. how much racism and (hetero-)sexism have declined. i hope the future is bright :)

vajorie
March 11th, 2010, 01:38 AM
sometimes modern society in general makes me sad. i find it helps to consider how much better it has become in the last 100 odd years. how much racism and (hetero-)sexism have declined. i hope the future is bright :)

I really don't like this line of argument / approach. It has two problematic assumptions built into it, which escape criticism.

1. that things usually improve with time (teleological approach to time / history)

This disarms much of any critical action, by suggesting that action is not a necessary element for changing what is not liked about one's condition. Much like orthodox Marxism, it informs us that things will change anyway, and that activism is useful only to make change faster. Indirectly, then, it tells us that the changes we have been experiencing were not mostly results of much political activism (eg feminism) but just the outcome of natural / historical determination.

The assumption (that things get better in time) often comes with another assumption built into it: that "time" is not the same field for all, and that some are more advanced along its lines than others. We know where that takes us...

2. that we are now in a much better position than the past.

Perhaps, perhaps not... The issue I take there is the assumption that, in the past, people did some incredibly vile things that they should have seen as such (because we are seeing it as such now). What if, as much feminist and queer theory suggest, folk in the past lived in their everyday lives and had to dig into those lives using various critical theories? What if the vileness that we perceive in them now was completely invisible to those for whom such digging was somewhat foreign.

What does that say about us now? Is it not possible that we are in the exact same position as they were then? What if the argument (that we are in a better condition now) is useful because it makes us forget the ordinariness of our own despicable deeds? What if the very invocation of that argument makes critical thinking hit into an invisible wall?

Did sexism, racism, and heterosexism (not same as sexism) really decline? What if they have taken new forms not yet visible to us (behind / in our own invisible walls)? What then?

aysiu
March 11th, 2010, 01:54 AM
vajorie, you raise some good points/questions, but I think you're projecting a straw man on to howlingmadhowie. Those assumptions may or may not have been in the statement you quoted. They aren't necessarily there.

vajorie
March 11th, 2010, 06:13 AM
vajorie, you raise some good points/questions, but I think you're projecting a straw man on to howlingmadhowie. Those assumptions may or may not have been in the statement you quoted. They aren't necessarily there.

yes I agree. sorry about not making that clear (I tried in the first sentence). my criticism was towards the statement (in general), not towards howlingmadhowie.

howlingmadhowie
March 11th, 2010, 07:36 AM
I really don't like this line of argument / approach. It has two problematic assumptions built into it, which escape criticism.

1. that things usually improve with time (teleological approach to time / history)


it really wasn't my intention to suggest that. you just have to ask any gay man or lesbian who experienced germany between 1930 and 1940 about their experience to have a good argument against that.

nevertheless in the history of western society i don't think you can reasonably doubt that racism, sexism and heterosexism have become less ingrained in law in the last 100 years. i would personally like to try to make a case for this being a result of technological advance, but i'd have to spend a while constructing this case.



This disarms much of any critical action, by suggesting that action is not a necessary element for changing what is not liked about one's condition. Much like orthodox Marxism, it informs us that things will change anyway, and that activism is useful only to make change faster. Indirectly, then, it tells us that the changes we have been experiencing were not mostly results of much political activism (eg feminism) but just the outcome of natural / historical determination.

i think for some activism the 'time was ripe' when it happened. many would make a case that moves against the legal enshrinement of sexism and racism were advanced greatly by the world wars and the service, both domestic and abroad, performed by people of colour and women. i dunno. not having lived at the time the idea that, for example, a woman should not be allowed to own her own property appears to me to be just weird. it seems obvious to me that such a law should have been struck down.

now such a spent a lot of time not being struck down, so it obviously wasn't obvious to a great many people. maybe i underestimate the effect of the world wars, but i'd much rather stress the importance of the new middle class created by the industrial revolution which had time on their hands to think and plan.

note i'm not trying to downplay the role played by individuals. just because the time was ripe, does not mean that the role didn't have to be played. it just means that it could be played successfully, which hadn't been the case before hand


The assumption (that things get better in time) often comes with another assumption built into it: that "time" is not the same field for all, and that some are more advanced along its lines than others. We know where that takes us...

2. that we are now in a much better position than the past.

Perhaps, perhaps not... The issue I take there is the assumption that, in the past, people did some incredibly vile things that they should have seen as such (because we are seeing it as such now). What if, as much feminist and queer theory suggest, folk in the past lived in their everyday lives and had to dig into those lives using various critical theories? What if the vileness that we perceive in them now was completely invisible to those for whom such digging was somewhat foreign.

of course this is the case. to exaggerate, i don't think that must white people in the 18th century walked about thinking "I'm going to do something vile to black people today". but i see no contradiction between this and me regarding their actions (from my position) as vile.

indeed there is a danger in relativising too much. if the behaviour of slave traders/the klan/the nazis/etc. was a result of them living in their everyday lives and having to dig into those lives using various critical theories, with what right do we call it wrong?

you could argue that it isn't important if such behaviour was wrong back then, the important thing is that it would be wrong now and we should guard against it now to make sure it doesn't happen again. those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. this is however a complicated argument and can be easily misused.


What does that say about us now? Is it not possible that we are in the exact same position as they were then? What if the argument (that we are in a better condition now) is useful because it makes us forget the ordinariness of our own despicable deeds? What if the very invocation of that argument makes critical thinking hit into an invisible wall?

Did sexism, racism, and heterosexism (not same as sexism) really decline? What if they have taken new forms not yet visible to us (behind / in our own invisible walls)? What then?

then we will deal with them as we find them. the change that makes me happy is that there is now a popular desire to deal with them.

oh boy. i seem to have derailed this thread :( sorry :(

macogw
March 26th, 2010, 06:04 PM
oh boy. i seem to have derailed this thread :( sorry :(

wowzers, yeah

Realised recently that possibly some of the times I'm mistaken for male on IRC are people thinking I (maco) am Benjamin Hill (mako). Realised that when someone actually called me "Ben" in #launchpad

wieman01
March 27th, 2010, 01:23 PM
wowzers, yeah

Realised recently that possibly some of the times I'm mistaken for male on IRC are people thinking I (maco) am Benjamin Hill (mako). Realised that when someone actually called me "Ben" in #launchpad
You a gal??? Help! ;-)

ghostwalk.with.me
April 21st, 2010, 04:56 PM
I'm not talking about generalization, even I when referring to a group of people I will use the phrase "You Guys". What I'm referring to is the fact that someone blatantly refers to me as being male. Even after I've told them I was female they act their not sure whether to believe me or not.

I do see your point though, I just wonder why often times so many males have a hard time believing that a female could be on the internet, frequenting the same internet "Hang out" spots they do, such as a tech forum/chat, or FPS forum/chat. It seems to happen quite frequently and can be disturbing.

Coming from a male prospective, perhaps I can relate an experience. When I was still frequenting the Linux/BSD/Solaris chat rooms on yahoo, I'd have to say there was a decent girl/guy ratio. As a result, you really had to ask that tired 'ol ASL question to determine what gender you were in fact addressing. My point is, with the increase of female users, developers and contributors, perceptions will eventually change.

Jguy
April 21st, 2010, 05:22 PM
Hm, an interesting topic, this one is.

My "In Real Life" friends follow this profusely; that there are no "girls" on the internet, and that all guys pretending to be girls are just guys. It makes me want to slap them everytime, even though I am a guy (I hope you've picked that up out of my alias)

I think this term came up from the fact that it's a stereotype. Girls tend to not play WoW, they tend to not be into programming, Linux or that sort of jazz. It's a very common stereotype, one that is partially true. "Gamer Girls" are usually far and inbetween, and females that use Linux/Unix/Anything other than Windows or Mac are even more so. I've read somewhere (source unknown, I apologize) that less than 5% of the population of most "technology" based sites, such as these forums or users of Linux/Unix are female. This probably comes from the fact that 90% of my graduating class out of high school were "preps"; they always did their hair, wore makeup, dated jocks, etc. It's a common stereotype that probably won't go away.

Another source of this information is probably sites such as 4chan and others like it. "On the internet, all men are men (or little kids), all women are men, and little girls are FBI agents"; commonly associating females who claim to be younger than 15 are probably FBI agents performing a raid on a suspected person (or persons) of pedophilia. Now, I'm sure we don't have to worry about that here, but in many places they do.

In my opinion and actions: If your name is non-gender specific, then I will refer to you as the male gender, unless I'm corrected. Obviously, if your name is commonly associated with a female name (I can usually pick out japanese/foreign gender specific names pretty easily) then I will refer to you as such, if you're a male or not.

Same thing if I happen to be playing an online game, but a little different in this regard. I'm one that is into roleplaying, DnD, all that kind of stuff. Even if I knew you were a guy and you happened to be playing on a female character, I would still refer to you as a female. This is for privacy as well as protection; there's a lot of creeps out there in the MMORPG world.

(True story short: when I first got my PS3 and played GTA IV online, there was a "default" avatar set for my PS3, and it was that of a female. I played 4 games that night, and at least 1 person from each "added me as a friend" and sent me a message, usually consisting of "are you a girl"" (or some other shorthand version of that). I did get one nice fellow from the UK that stuck around even after he found out I was a guy, but the rest deleted me from their friends lists.)

aysiu
April 21st, 2010, 05:23 PM
Coming from a male prospective, perhaps I can relate an experience. When I was still frequenting the Linux/BSD/Solaris chat rooms on yahoo, I'd have to say there was a decent girl/guy ratio. As a result, you really had to ask that tired 'ol ASL question to determine what gender you were in fact addressing. My point is, with the increase of female users, developers and contributors, perceptions will eventually change.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that once someone says "I'm a woman, not a man" that it's in any way excusable for someone to keep referring to her as "he" or "him."

gabriella
May 9th, 2010, 09:20 PM
Well I've encountered it some but my name makes my gender obvious. What I find more irritating is in a work situation where people assume women are technically incompetent when it come to PC's. I was working last year part time at check in for a hotel chain here. Sometimes the printers would fail to print due to the way it was configured, a rather poor XP installation. I could usually get up and running again. Numerous times I experienced the assumption that I wouldn't have a clue about how to fix it. One time in particular comes to mind when a lounge lizard type checks in, system locks up and I'm struggling to fix it and having to listen to sexist dribble about "not messing things up further". What really did it was when eventually a supervisor who wasn't even based at my location walks in, totally sucks up to the guest dissing me and does nothing to support me in any way when he knew very well I knew what I was doing. I almost lost it!

XubuRoxMySox
May 9th, 2010, 11:29 PM
I'm not talking about generalization, even I when referring to a group of people I will use the phrase "You Guys". What I'm referring to is the fact that someone blatantly refers to me as being male. Even after I've told them I was female they act their not sure whether to believe me or not.

My friend Amy was treated that way here, and when someone outright said "I just assumed you were a guy pretending to be a girl," she was done. She hasn't even visited a Linux or tech forum ever since.

It's too bad, because she could have contributed a lot of good insights, as she did even as a newbie with this (http://www.linuxforums.org/articles/non-geeky-girls-love-linux-too-_368.html) article on Linux Forums. She's still using Linux (PCLinuxOS now) and still loves it, but has been completely put off Linux-oriented forums because of this kind of insulting insensitivity. There was no ambiguity in her user name or anything like that, just the assumption that she was not who she claimed to be.

Missing her contributions,
Robin

AbtZ
May 10th, 2010, 03:58 PM
My friend Amy was treated that way here, and when someone outright said "I just assumed you were a guy pretending to be a girl," she was done. She hasn't even visited a Linux or tech forum ever since.

It's too bad, because she could have contributed a lot of good insights, as she did even as a newbie with this (http://www.linuxforums.org/articles/non-geeky-girls-love-linux-too-_368.html) article on Linux Forums. She's still using Linux (PCLinuxOS now) and still loves it, but has been completely put off Linux-oriented forums because of this kind of insulting insensitivity. There was no ambiguity in her user name or anything like that, just the assumption that she was not who she claimed to be.

Missing her contributions,
Robin
That's the internet for ya.

If one single comment like that put her off, she's wise to stay away. I'm making no excuse for the insulting assumption that she was lying about who she was -- although to be fair, that happens a lot online -- but I also don't think people should be so darn sensitive.

User3k
May 10th, 2010, 04:12 PM
Ever Get irritated with being mistaken for male online?

Not really since I am a male ;-)

Wait.... Women know about computers? They know about Linux? They are smart? No way..... LMAO

I have a friend who knows about cars, I really don't except for basics (maybe advanced basics.) But she is the one that is the mechanic. I love going places with her or on the rare occasion where she has to bring her car to the shop. They look at me and start explaining everything like I know what they are talking about. They completely skip her over. We always get a laugh out of that.

I play a game, not sure if anyone here has heard about it ;-) lol, called World of Warcraft. I decided to make a female character just for the fun of it. I was curious about something I started to pick up on. If you have a female character you are really treated differently. People that would normally be rude where actually being nice. Plus you get more people that want to do groups with you. I guess they think that female characters and male characters must mean the person playing them is the same gender. They must also think that in real life that those playing Taurens, Night elves, Undead, etc must really be Taurens, Night Elves, Undead etc. Guess they forgot what the RPG in MMORPG means, lol.

dE_logics
May 14th, 2010, 10:19 AM
Ever Get irritated with being mistaken for male online?

Hay!...you girls forgot chat rooms! There're many girls out there.

gabriella
May 22nd, 2010, 12:20 PM
That's the internet for ya.

If one single comment like that put her off, she's wise to stay away. I'm making no excuse for the insulting assumption that she was lying about who she was -- although to be fair, that happens a lot online -- but I also don't think people should be so darn sensitive.

Maybe she was being a little too sensitive...I say maybe?. I would have stuck around longer. However, I don't think any man, even the best intentioned, can really truely understand what it's like at times.

dvwolfman
May 29th, 2010, 11:35 PM
I have had this happen to more times then I can count, I'll be posting in a forum and what not, and it seems to never fail, someone always ends up referring to me as a guy in some manner or another, am I alone in this or does it happen to other woman as well?

Is it because I'm a bit knowledgeable in computers and enjoy using them, or possibly because I like games (even the occasional FPS, BF2 Anyone?) I just get irritated with it sometimes.

Opinions, thoughts?

Angel

i can't blame you, I'm male and hate it when assumtions are made about me in general, it must be really annoying and invalidating, good point to bring it up, I hadn't thought about it before...found this post accidentally, was searching for something else, but more power to you for opening a discussion about it

Irihapeti
May 30th, 2010, 09:32 AM
I feel uncomfortable about being mistaken for a male, because I then have to say something and the other person often ends up apologising and feeling a bit sheepish. I sometimes wonder if I give the impression of making a big deal out of it. Never mind, I realise that none of this is quite rational. :)

What really annoys me is the "granny" talk, as in "simple enough for granny to use". WHY do people assume that a woman over [insert age here] has got to be clueless and helpless? Certainly, some may be like that, but not all of us by any means.

Grrr, need to go and do something to lower my blood pressure....

dvwolfman
May 30th, 2010, 09:45 AM
I feel uncomfortable about being mistaken for a male, because I then have to say something and the other person often ends up apologising and feeling a bit sheepish. I sometimes wonder if I give the impression of making a big deal out of it. Never mind, I realise that none of this is quite rational. :)

What really annoys me is the "granny" talk, as in "simple enough for granny to use". WHY do people assume that a woman over [insert age here] has got to be clueless and helpless? Certainly, some may be like that, but not all of us by any means.

Grrr, need to go and do something to lower my blood pressure....

Age discrimination is a sad reality, I agree, good point. More people are going to be living longer, and I believe that initiatives have been put forth to protect older americans (not assuming you are American) in the workforce, if we can keep older people working past retirement, can we not respect them, too? :guitar:

Swagman
May 30th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Ageism occurs to both sexes.

Young uns forget that it was the oldsters that invented the damn thing in the first place !!

aysiu
May 30th, 2010, 09:43 PM
Ageism occurs to both sexes. Ubuntu for grandma (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=ubuntu+grandma&btnG=Google+Search&fp=ee54f4ebb89acb5d) has 68,900 results. Ubuntu for grandpa (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=ubuntu+for+grandpa&btnG=Google+Search&fp=ee54f4ebb89acb5d) has 37,600 results.

The first result in the first search is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuForGrandma

Right now the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuForGrandpa doesn't exist.

Ageism may occur for any sex, but sexism also occurs for any age.

elizabeth
May 31st, 2010, 07:43 AM
Ubuntu for grandma (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=ubuntu+grandma&btnG=Google+Search&fp=ee54f4ebb89acb5d) has 68,900 results.

On this subject, there was a great article on Linux.com a few years back:

It's time to retire the mom test (http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/118863)

BoneKracker
May 31st, 2010, 07:47 AM
What I'm referring to is the fact that someone blatantly refers to me as being male. Even after I've told them I was female they act their not sure whether to believe me or not.

It's because you use such a butch operation system. :P

Rasa1111
May 31st, 2010, 08:02 AM
I mistakenly called Irihapeti "Bro" a few times,
and when I found out She was a Woman, I apologized..
and She didnt mind at all. :) lol <3

Irihapeti
May 31st, 2010, 09:36 PM
I mistakenly called Irihapeti "Bro" a few times,
and when I found out She was a Woman, I apologized..
and She didnt mind at all. :) lol <3

Yes, you are very polite, and it's a pleasure to help people like you.

The thing is, though, you didn't refuse to believe me when I told you. I gather, from reading previous messages in this thread, that others have been called liars (or something similar).

mobilediesel
May 31st, 2010, 10:43 PM
It's because you use such a butch operation system. :P

My good ol' dyslexia made that look like a different word there for a sec... :D

Rasa1111
June 1st, 2010, 12:12 AM
Yes, you are very polite, and it's a pleasure to help people like you.

The thing is, though, you didn't refuse to believe me when I told you. I gather, from reading previous messages in this thread, that others have been called liars (or something similar).

:) thanks!

ahh, well, knowing how many (apologies in advance) 'retards' there are on the internet, lol
that really would not surprise me.

They are all "pros" in whatever field they choose to gab about on the interwebs.
And they 'know all'...
So I really can see people doing that...

"Irihapeti~ "Just so you know, I am a Woman"
"Interweb geniuses" " Sorry, but no you are not. I can tell a woman when I speak to one, and you are NOT a Woman, stop lying, you arent fooling anyone!" :lol:

BoneKracker
June 1st, 2010, 12:49 AM
My good ol' dyslexia made that look like a different word there for a sec... :D
That's not "dyslexia". I'd hate to see you do a Rorschach ink blot test. :lol:


DR. TAYLOR
Now then, each of these slides needs a reply from one of the people in the picture. You'll tell me what you think the person would say. Alright?

ALEX
Righty, right.

The doctor reads aloud the dialogue printed in the cartoon balloon ů a peacock.

DR. TAYLOR
Isn't the plumage beautiful?

ALEX
I just say what the other person would say?

DR. TAYLOR
Yes. Yes, well don't think about it too long, just say the first thing that pops into your mind.

ALEX
Right... Knickers... Cabbages... It doesn't have a beak.

Alex laughs. Slide of woman speaking to boy.

DR. TAYLOR
Good. The boy you always quarrelled with is seriously ill.

ALEX
That's right and I'll smash your face for you, yarblockos.

Slide of watch shop.

DR. TAYLOR
Good. It wa your fault... you sold me a crummy watch. I want my money back.

ALEX
Bollocks. You know what you can do with that watch? You can stick it up your ****.

Slide of nude woman in bed, a man at the window.

DR. TAYLOR
Good. What do you want?

ALEX
Excuse me, missus. No time for the old in-out, I've just come to read the meter.

Slide of bird's nest with eggs.

DR. TAYLOR
Good. You can do whatever you like with these.

ALEX
Eggiwegs. I would like to smash 'em. Pick up th elot and f... owww...

He slams his hand down and cries out with pain.

ALEX
****ing hell...

DR. TAYLOR
Fine. Well, that's all there is to it. Are you alright?

ALEX
I hope so. Is that the end then?

DR. TAYLOR
Yes.

ALEX
I was quite enjoying that.

DR. TAYLOR
Good. I'm glad

ALEX
How many did I get right?

macogw
June 17th, 2010, 03:01 AM
If one single comment like that put her off, she's wise to stay away. I'm making no excuse for the insulting assumption that she was lying about who she was -- although to be fair, that happens a lot online -- but I also don't think people should be so darn sensitive.

Ah yes, the solution to people being jerks is not to fix the jerks...it's to fix their targets.

Likewise, bullies should not be punished by the teacher for being bullies, but rather nerds should be punished for being nerdy enough to attract the bully's attention.

AbtZ
June 17th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Ah yes, the solution to people being jerks is not to fix the jerks...it's to fix their targets.

Likewise, bullies should not be punished by the teacher for being bullies, but rather nerds should be punished for being nerdy enough to attract the bully's attention.
A bit melodramatic, no?

She would have been fine trying to fix the jerks as well -- but that would take some time and effort on her part, which she obviously was not ready to put in. Mind you, sometimes the amount of time and effort required simply is not worth it on a personal level, so I'm not saying she did the wrong thing by walking away.