How to get a job out of this... [Archive]

chaosbeing

June 30th, 2008, 07:34 PM

CptPicard

June 30th, 2008, 07:42 PM

You're 15... you are not in any kind of a rush to choose anything in life yet. :)

However, for the time being you would be well served to just hack around in things you're interested in. It helps you also decide whether programming really is something you want to do.

Mind you, my own professional opinion is that I would not recommend programming as a career to anyone... just being a code monkey is actually quite boring and monotonous, and you're rather replaceable.

That's why theory is important -- it lets you think for yourself about problems you will solve by programming. Learn to like math... or at least the mathematical mindset. Then, eventually, get into algorithms... but for the time being, just learn languages and use them.

Btw, if you really want to be prepared for the future, check out languages like Lisp. They are making a comeback, and will be big in the decade ahead.

LaRoza

June 30th, 2008, 07:43 PM

Ok, I sure hope this is the right place to be posting this... But whatever.

I'm 15 years old. I'm sure allot of people remember this age, but what I need help with right now is the whole "people pushing you to choose a career" thing. I know basic C++ (Though I am constantly learning) and I don't think I'll ever stop learning it, as there's always new things to learn. (A good thing) But, my question, that I'm really hoping a professional programmer can help me with is, how do I eventually get a job out of this knowledge? I know the basics: Learn a language, get some credit with an open source project, a degree of some sort is a plus, but what all do I really need to do? I feel like the first person to discover Mt. Everest. Like You just keep looking, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and more daunting. Any responses are appreciated. (But I prefer helpful ones. haha)

Rock on
Realistically, a degree is the only way to get a job.

I would recommend you expand your horizons, learn new paradigms and such, and explore the field of IT. You may find that you don't want to sit in a cubicle writing code (I really don't see programmers who sit in a cubicle and write code as happy, only people who work as contractors and consultants) and would rather by a system administrator, or a security expert or something entirely different.

Coding is fun, and a field you can never dry up, so you don't need to get a job in it.

As you are 15, I'd give the standard advise. Do as well as you can in school (focus on math as best you can as well), and get into a school to get a degree when you graduate.

dominiquec

June 30th, 2008, 07:43 PM

The usual route is to finish school first :-)

Sounds tongue-in-cheek but consider: in school you'll learn (hopefully) more techniques in solid design. More importantly, it's your chance to network with your future customers / business partners -- your classmates and professors. Virtual interaction is fine, but nothing beats face-to-face relationships.

Just my two cents.

Best of luck, CB!

myrtle1908

June 30th, 2008, 08:02 PM

Realistically, a degree is the only way to get a job.

Not true IMHO. The best programmers I've worked with and subsequently hired have all been dropouts who have a passion for software, are better at thinking outside the square etc. For mine, experience and passion is always better than a degree. All that said a degree does help in some respects but I do not believe it a prerequisite for employment.

LaRoza

June 30th, 2008, 08:04 PM

Not true IMHO. The best programmers I've worked with and subsequently hired have all been dropouts who have a passion for software, are better at thinking outside the square etc. For mine, experience and passion is always better than a degree. All that said a degree does help in some respects but I do not believe it a prerequisite for employment.

Then that is unique. Nowadays, you can't get a job without a bachelors generally speaking.

CptPicard

June 30th, 2008, 08:18 PM

All that said a degree does help in some respects but I do not believe it a prerequisite for employment.

It is not a strict prerequisite, and I actually agree up to the point that actually completing a degree is not a requirement (let's just that say that yours truly almost became a drop-out while writing final thesis because of a badly chosen subject -- it had no bearing on my success in studies up to that point) and that up to Bachelor's you don't even get taught anything that you couldn't learn on your own...

...however... I do believe that academic education around Master's degree level does give you a whole new point of view on the whole thing. What you learn there is not "programming" but "problem-solving" on pretty much any kind of "mechanical calculator". Frankly, I've been horrified by how many supposedly competent professional programmers attempt to solve some known NP-complete problem by some ad hoc method because they simply don't know what they're looking at, just as an example...

edm1

June 30th, 2008, 08:24 PM

I read an article on the best way for computer science graduates to go about making themselves stand out, in the 'new scientist' the other day. I'll see if i can find it.

tamoneya

June 30th, 2008, 08:31 PM

Im going to agree with the school recommendation. I got my first really programming job the summer after graduating high school. I was an intern and did C++ development. It is not the kind of job I would recommend to any one long term. It mainly served as a resume builder and got my foot in the door. At 15 though I would just work on Open source stuff and make sure to keep my grades up. I also did some general PC repair. I managed to get involved in a startup company that did PC repair services. Keep your eye out for something like this or maybe even start it up yourself. I found that until you get a college degree it is a better (in general) to go with smaller startup companies. Larger companies will spend very little looking at your resume and will probably throw it out right away. If you do manage to get a job you will be assigned to very code monkey like jobs. If you are in a smaller company you end up multi tasking more and if you are like me your boss will realize that you are good at all sorts of other stuff besides coding. My boss had me build several computers for and this is a lot better in my opinion than just being a code monkey.

holiday

June 30th, 2008, 09:21 PM

Don't choose a career at fifteen. You have lots of time. Keep going as you're going but continue to explore other fields. Although programming is fun, coding your forty-seven millionth forms and reports web app can make you wish you'd chosen something else.

Like the guy who went into physics and spends most of his time coding simulators of atomic interaction.

Now - that would be cool! Even in Cobol.

LaRoza

June 30th, 2008, 09:40 PM

Like the guy who went into physics and spends most of his time coding simulators of atomic interaction.

But just think, a mistake could cause a nuclear reaction that is unstoppable!

(I know, it would be a simulation, but in the simulation, millions of people could die. Could you live with that?)

pmasiar

June 30th, 2008, 10:41 PM

You have a big plus that you are thinking and planning - and you have a lot of time to get where you want to be.

There are four (I started at two) kinds of careers in programming:
- [1] hired programmer, solving (for average salary) whatever problem has the boss who has money, like programming loan servicing for a bank, or billing for water utility company,
- [2] programmer in softwarehouse - compared to [1], your product is making money for company, so your position is higher
- [3] programmer in a startup, where you making peanuts in salary, but possibly can make big in stock. Compared to [1] and [2], you have less money, more risk, but reward might be much higher (but 95% startup fails)
- [4] scientist, who uses programming to help solve some fundamental problem.

Hired programmer is OK, safe (someone else figures out how to earn money), but you may have little say what to program. So 90% of work is OK (medium boring), and 10% is something interesting.

Game programming is a trap. Most people think it is fun (and it is for some time), but hours are insane and salary is kept down by steady influx of new starry-eyed coders who want to have part of the fun.

Startup is great chance, but you should take it while you are young, can recover after probable failure, and have no mortgage and family. And be prepared for insane hours.

I would recommend scientist career. In plenty of areas, computers are key tool, but programmers from [1] and [2] do not have expert knowledge to make those programs. And in many of those areas is possible to find new ideas and create something spectacular, and if it is related to health, people will pay anything to get it. With advances in biology, genetics, biomechanics, interesting projects can be found, and good programmers are scarce (more scarce than in traditional programming areas).

Also, as scientist, plan to get PhD, and then you have chance to travel the world for company/university money. Only BS degree is something you pay for, if you are any good (and you seems to, planning ahead) advanced degrees is paid by research grants, where you will be working on something your professors want to research.

Remember, programmer is a hired warrior. Only as scientist or startup founder you got to decide what is interesting problem, and how to solve it.

For now (and never), don't get pigeonholed as C++ or anything. Go for more expressive languages like Python, Lisp - languages where you can solve problems with computer, and not explain CPU every little boring detail. Read Paul Graham and Joel Spolsky essays about what it is to be successful programmer.

For opensource, pick project you are interested, and which participates in Google's Summer of Code. You can earn money, fame, skills and name recognition at the same time. You youngsters have it so much easier :-)

guilly

June 30th, 2008, 11:19 PM

Realistically, a degree is the only way to get a job.

I would recommend you expand your horizons, learn new paradigms and such, and explore the field of IT. You may find that you don't want to sit in a cubicle writing code (I really don't see programmers who sit in a cubicle and write code as happy, only people who work as contractors and consultants) and would rather by a system administrator, or a security expert or something entirely different.

Coding is fun, and a field you can never dry up, so you don't need to get a job in it.

As you are 15, I'd give the standard advise. Do as well as you can in school (focus on math as best you can as well), and get into a school to get a degree when you graduate.

With that said though, wouldn't you agree that most senior analyst or high paying consultants started off as "code monkeys"?? I'm a code monkey right now, cobol at that lol. However, I have plans to move up the food chain as well...

LaRoza

June 30th, 2008, 11:28 PM

With that said though, wouldn't you agree that most senior analyst or high paying consultants started off as "code monkeys"?? I'm a code monkey right now, cobol at that lol. However, I have plans to move up the food chain as well...

A famous actor once started out as basically a driver for call girls, doesn't mean that it is a good career path if you want to be an actor ;)

(Which actor is up to you to find out, but it is true)

tinny

June 30th, 2008, 11:38 PM

I tend to agree with the guys saying "Don't choose a career at fifteen". Code / Hack for fun, then you will discover what path to take. It took me about 4 years of exploring IT before I settled on software development. (What the hell was I doing for 4 years!?!?).

Hack and have fun.

Xavieran

July 1st, 2008, 01:54 AM

The OP is in pretty much exactly the same situation as I am :)

I'm 15 (approx.;)) and want to be a programmer when I "grow up".
Actually, I'd prefer to be a sys admin, because then you can do code monkeying and administration (though I hear the hours are crazy, and the end users are exhausting).

My personal little bit of advice is to learn more than one language (python, ruby, mono, etc.), and also to just code anything you can think of.
I was playing poker the other day (with my sister) and decided to code a card game engine and then a blackjack game (much easier than poker) I have not yet finished though...

Thanks,
Emmanuel

tinny

July 1st, 2008, 02:00 AM

learn more than one language (python, ruby, mono, etc.)

I wouldn't advise learning more than one language until you have ~2yr+ experience. You need to get all the comp science under your belt at some stage and sleep sometime too.

(comp science = algorithms etc, language independent)

LaRoza

July 1st, 2008, 02:15 AM

I wouldn't advise learning more than one language until you have ~2yr+ experience. You need to get all the comp science under your belt at some stage and sleep sometime too.

Wow. I have only a year experience (about) and I know more than 2 languages (see wiki)

h6w

July 1st, 2008, 02:36 AM

I disagree with some of what's been said here. I decided my profession at 15, and everyone around me told me not to give it a go, to stay in school, do my homework, and practise my musical instrument.

So, I sent a letter to my local university. I explained what I'd done, and asked if I could sit in on their classes. They replied by asking me into an interview, bringing along my work. After that, they actually started me in a summer course university degree. The following year I was doing tech work for them building their website, and, after doing lots of stuff including building a radio station playout system, teaching and lecturing at Uni, I'm now a Systems Administrator and I still love every minute.

If you find something that you really love doing. Stick with it! You'll either get bored of it quickly or you'll never stop enjoying it.

Good luck!

raddmadd

July 1st, 2008, 02:44 AM

Ok, I sure hope this is the right place to be posting this... But whatever.

I'm 15 years old. I'm sure allot of people remember this age, but what I need help with right now is the whole "people pushing you to choose a career" thing. I know basic C++ (Though I am constantly learning) and I don't think I'll ever stop learning it, as there's always new things to learn. (A good thing) But, my question, that I'm really hoping a professional programmer can help me with is, how do I eventually get a job out of this knowledge? I know the basics: Learn a language, get some credit with an open source project, a degree of some sort is a plus, but what all do I really need to do? I feel like the first person to discover Mt. Everest. Like You just keep looking, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and more daunting. Any responses are appreciated. (But I prefer helpful ones. haha)

:guitar: Rock on

College. If you want to work for someone, you 'have' to. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you don't go to college they likely won't hire you.

Get into some good high school programs. Figure out exactly what you want to do. For instance, although I have more fun with programming, I joined a CCNA program at my school (teaches about networking.) It is a pretty fun class, it is one of the good things that colleges will look at. Get good high school grades to get into a good college.

Now, you might be asking what to go to college for, well there are plenty of things. Look up what colleges have to offer.

People might have already said what I said, but I'm bored waiting for a reply to my thread, so I gave my input.

tinny

July 1st, 2008, 03:01 AM

Wow. I have only a year experience (about) and I know more than 2 languages (see wiki)

You know more than two languages?

I hear that they can program from birth in the Delta Quadrant.;)

Sukarn

July 1st, 2008, 03:15 AM

You know more than two languages?

I hear that they can program from birth in the Delta Quadrant.;)

correction: replace birth with manufacture

skeeterbug

July 1st, 2008, 03:46 AM

Realistically, a degree is the only way to get a job.

While I don't discourage schooling, this is totally false. I was very passionate about computers/programming. In high school we had the option for vocational schooling. So I spent half of my day at the technical school for programming, and my last year doing IT Essentials, Unix administration, and Java programming.

The school was a member of BPA (Business Professionals of America). I took first place in VB and C++ regional competitions, which was about 10 counties and 10-20 school districts. I went on to state and took 6th.

Anyways, my last semester, the teacher got me into a co-op job with a somewhat local company. I worked there for two years, and went on to obtained a lead developer position for a start-up across the country. I have now been leading a team of 10 or so programmers for the past 3 years. I am now sitting on 5 years of experience, and honestly could go to work about anywhere here in the valley if I wanted. I have declined two job offers in the past 6 months (they came to me).

To the original poster. I got my first job when the company didn't really "want" a full time programmer. I happened to be working on a little side project. I formalized the documentation for it, made sure my code was clean, printed it off and put it in a binder. The interviewer was very impressed and decided to go ahead and hire me anyways. If you are passionate about something, people will pick up on it. Make sure to obtain a degree. It is a personal regret of mine that I didn't. Maybe I got lucky, who knows? Cheers.

sshuber

July 1st, 2008, 09:51 AM

I'm about to graduate from college myself, so I may have some insight.

First, it's great to have an idea of what you want to do at 15, but so did I. I did two years of music performance in college before realizing there was no purpose of a degree in music, so I switched to CS. It's the best move I ever made. Going into the program I really only new HTML but I was good at math and had a logical mindset. Now as I'm getting ready to graduate, I currently have a good internship doing Java/Oracle ADF web development and a job lined up for when I graduate. I got the job in April and I don't graduate until December mind you. That's even with a mediocre GPA (2.5) since I switched majors so late and had to take ridiculous course loads. Most companies really just care that you have that CS degree, except competitive internship programs.

I see CS as the way to go personally over IT or IFS. I was taught theory, and lots of it. I learned C# in my intro classes but through my theory education and work experience I've since learned Java, C++, VB, javascript, and SQL. The reason that I've learned so many is that a solid theory base gives you the tools to apply them to any language once you learn the syntax and the intricacies of how the language functions. Most recently, my new job that I start in December requires an extensive knowledge of C-based network programming so I'm tackling that right now.

As a last point, being a software engineer is meant to be fun. The best thing you can do for yourself is define a problem or something you'd like to do and just hack your way through it. You will not only have fun but also learn a ton about software engineering.

Zugzwang

July 1st, 2008, 10:02 AM

The reason that I've learned so many is that a solid theory base gives you the tools to apply them to any language once you learn the syntax and the intricacies of how the language functions. Most recently, my new job that I start in December requires an extensive knowledge of C-based network programming so I'm tackling that right now.

This is only a very small subset of what theory will give you. IMHO far more important are complexity theory and theory of computation. Especially complexity theory will provide you with a foundation that is extremely useful throughout your whole work life as it will prevent you from trying to tackle problems that you won't solve anyway. ;-) A degree also provides you with the technical foundations (networks, databases, etc.) that you will need apart from theory, like the ability of analyse and design algorithms for problems never encountered before. Especially when it comes to more tricky problems, your toolset will be far larger than that of any programmer/developer not skilled in theory. And this is just written from the practical point of view.

LaRoza

July 1st, 2008, 02:36 PM

While I don't discourage schooling, this is totally false.

Perhaps, because apparently some people do IT or programming work without degrees, however, like I said, it isn't the path to take.

@OP Don't listen to those that do not think a degree is necessary. Look in the want ads, you'll see degrees wanted. Although it is technically possible to get a good job without a degree, in this day and age, a degree is almost required for anything but the most basic tasks.

pmasiar

July 1st, 2008, 03:00 PM

Degree is not necessary, if you are known to be very good, and want a position in a small company.

Everywhere else degree is necessary - and it is necessary for you, if you want to have some control what you are doing, and not be just a coder for hire.

As I said, degree does not have to be in CompSci - if your degree is in engineering or biology, you can (and should) learn programming like those 'non-degree' guys did - on the side by yourself. Of course, you also can (and should) get CompSci minor in college.

Necessity to have degree is overstated, but when you apply for a job, you are not in a position to teach your future boss what criteria to apply when looking for people to fill your position. You have to fit whatever his bias is, and not having degree is pretty big red flag.

Ie in our university, one extremely smart guy worked as contractor for a time, but then they reached the limit, and have to let him go, because of lack or BS degree. Begged him to get degree and return, but could not change the rules just for him.

skeeterbug

July 1st, 2008, 05:09 PM

Perhaps, because apparently some people do IT or programming work without degrees, however, like I said, it isn't the path to take.

@OP Don't listen to those that do not think a degree is necessary. Look in the want ads, you'll see degrees wanted. Although it is technically possible to get a good job without a degree, in this day and age, a degree is almost required for anything but the most basic tasks.

Maybe we read different ads. A majority of them list a degree OR equivalent experience as a requirement. Very few strictly require it. Anyways, at the end of my post I recommended he go to college anyways. It is just a check box that you need to check. It will give you a slight advantage if someone has the same experience, and lacks a degree.

starcannon

July 1st, 2008, 05:19 PM

I think your on the right track, choose your first career, its not to early, you can always choose another later in life if you dislike the one you choose now.

I have 10 and 12 year old kids, and already have them thinking about what they are going to do when they grow up.

Considering your post, I think I'd recommend a Bachelors Degree in Computer Science, if you decide after working in the field for a few years that this suits you, then you can go back for a Masters. If you decide its not for you but perhaps teaching is more your speed, you'd need to only take a few classes and presto your a Math Teacher, or some other Science Teacher depending on how you tailor your degree. You could also return and turn it into a Computer Engineer Degree if you chose, anyway, where your already interested in computers, programming languages, and taking the initiative to start planning your life, I think C.S. would be a great place for you to start.

People used to be pushed into career paths much earlier than 15, I think 15 is a good time to start having a path figured out. You've got 3 years to prepare for what your going to do in college, thats really not much time for all the preparing thats required, so again I highly recommend continuing to nail it down and then go for it.

LaRoza

July 1st, 2008, 05:28 PM

Maybe we read different ads. A majority of them list a degree OR equivalent experience as a requirement. Very few strictly require it. Anyways, at the end of my post I recommended he go to college anyways. It is just a check box that you need to check. It will give you a slight advantage if someone has the same experience, and lacks a degree.

Yes, that is true. A degree or experience. However, do you see a logical problem here? You have to get experience or a degree. You need to get a job to get experience and that job requires (usually) a degree or experience.

For all new comers to the field, a degree is needed.

Is it possible to get a job in the field without a degree? Sure. It is also possible to make a living writing novels. However, one can't count on luck and good fortune to get a job. Either get a degree, or plan on being lucky.

imdano

July 1st, 2008, 07:23 PM

If you still think you want to be a programmer when you get to college, major in Computer Science. After your sophomore or (more likely) junior year, try to find an internship to get some real world experience. It'll look great on your resume and will give you an idea of what a career in software development will be like. If you're unable to find one (and even if you are) think about contributing to an open source project as well, for the same reason.

I graduated this year, and found that in all my interviews work in open source projects and my internship were by far my best assests. Most CS graduates are going to come out of school having done similar coursework and similar school projects, but having on-the-job experience from an internship, and having worked on large open-source project or research project through your university will help separate you from the rest of the pack.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while having that kind of experience is important, potential employers also understand that you're most likely not going to be able to start making major contributions right away. Depending on what sort of job you get, you're likely to need to recieve at least some (and probably a lot) of training, because the kinds of technologies you're dealing with in the workplace are usually not taught in school. They hire you with the intention of training you, because your coursework and job/codingg experience make them believe that you're intelligent, have a strong understanding of programming principles, and are capable of learning new things quickly.

All that said, don't stress out too much about it at this point. You're only 15, you've got six years to build a resume. I didn't start coding until just before I started college and I found a good job pretty easily after I graduated.

pmasiar

July 1st, 2008, 09:15 PM

Maybe we read different ads. A majority of them list a degree OR equivalent experience as a requirement.

By law, they have to say "or equivalent experience". In reality, if hiring manager has 100 resume, and 10 do not have degree, they will not make it even to phone interview unless they have something very special going for them. Big red flag.

Hiring manager problem most important problem is how to select from big pile of resumes whom to invite for interview - so she looks for all red flags and discards those resumes without wasting time reading them for details. Trust me, I worked in IT recruiting agency. Problem is **always** how to narrow big pile what computer found you to something manageable what you can read and compare. How to eliminate candidates quickly. Degree is the simplest one, specially for entry-level position where you cannot ask for years of experience.

LaRoza

July 1st, 2008, 09:49 PM

By law, they have to say "or equivalent experience". In reality, if hiring manager has 100 resume, and 10 do not have degree, they will not make it even to phone interview unless they have something very special going for them. Big red flag.

In reality, your resume never gets read, and is only glanced at for 15 seconds.

From the book "Confessions of a Recruiting Director" (which is a really good book, even better than the parachute one)

"Fifty percent of resumes submitted for jobs are never read. By anyone. Ever."

The second one is the 15 second test. Your statements mirror his, so it must be universal.

slavik

July 1st, 2008, 10:14 PM

By law, they have to say "or equivalent experience". In reality, if hiring manager has 100 resume, and 10 do not have degree, they will not make it even to phone interview unless they have something very special going for them. Big red flag.

Hiring manager problem most important problem is how to select from big pile of resumes whom to invite for interview - so she looks for all red flags and discards those resumes without wasting time reading them for details. Trust me, I worked in IT recruiting agency. Problem is **always** how to narrow big pile what computer found you to something manageable what you can read and compare. How to eliminate candidates quickly. Degree is the simplest one, specially for entry-level position where you cannot ask for years of experience.
to support this, one interview I went on, they kept asking for a BS diploma (which I was about to get, it was in the paperwork stage), after that, they didn't care where from it was, it was more about what I know and what my skillset is.

A diploma is a piece of paper. As far as what skills you have, the paper is pretty much worthless, but what it does say is that you have a knowledge base, all the "extra stuff" will be discovered by the technical people that interview you. After you have worked in a position for even a year, you already know what skills are needed for this position, most technical people that interview you will by the end of the first interview (if it's long enough) be able to pinpoint exactly where your strengths and weaknesses are.

slavik

July 1st, 2008, 10:15 PM

In reality, your resume never gets read, and is only glanced at for 15 seconds.

From the book "Confessions of a Recruiting Director" (which is a really good book, even better than the parachute one)

"Fifty percent of resumes submitted for jobs are never read. By anyone. Ever."

The second one is the 15 second test. Your statements mirror his, so it must be universal.
well, I wouldn't exactly agree to the idea that the resume gets glanced at, the same interview I spoke of before, the every person interviewing me had a copy of my resume and would refer to every point that I put on there.

supirman

July 1st, 2008, 10:17 PM

While a degree may not be 100% required, it might as well be. I have a bachelor's and master's in electrical and computer engineering and let me just say that staying in school for the master's was 100% worth it. I went for my master's degree because I love learning and I wanted challenged. Not only did I learn a ton of cool stuff, but it resulted in a much higher starting salary. I now have 2 years of experience and I'm already making six figures (and living in Ohio where cost of living is low).

I know of a few people who have managed to get decent paying jobs without a degree, but as others have mentioned, it's not nearly as likely in this day and age. For example, the HR lady at work won't even give me resumes to look at if they don't match the base criteria - a degree from a respected university and a high GPA.

LaRoza

July 1st, 2008, 10:22 PM

well, I wouldn't exactly agree to the idea that the resume gets glanced at, the same interview I spoke of before, the every person interviewing me had a copy of my resume and would refer to every point that I put on there.

It depends on the size of the company of course.

Microsoft. They get 20000 resumes a month (unsolicitated). If each resume got five minutes of consideration, it would mean 100000 minutes a month doing nothing but looking at resumes. (1666 hours or ten people working full at forty hours a weeek for the entire month)

And consider that a recruiter spends only a small portion of time actually looking at resumes, you are down to a very slight chance (just by resume alone)

(Stats and ideas from the book I referenced)

pmasiar

July 1st, 2008, 11:58 PM

A diploma is a piece of paper. As far as what skills you have, the paper is pretty much worthless, but what it does say is that you have a knowledge base

... and you can sit to do boring homework, and do have vocabulary, so they can explain stuff to you.

well, I wouldn't exactly agree to the idea that the resume gets glanced at, the same interview I spoke of before, the every person interviewing me had a copy of my resume and would refer to every point that I put on there.

yes, they all read in detail resume - but only those 1% of people who advanced to in-person interview. Rest (99% of resumes) were discarded by HR recruiter.

dwhitney67

July 2nd, 2008, 12:24 AM

...
Most CS graduates are going to come out of school having done similar coursework and similar school projects, but having on-the-job experience from an internship...

Another thing to keep in mind is that while having that kind of experience is important, potential employers also understand that you're most likely not going to be able to start making major contributions right away. Depending on what sort of job you get, you're likely to need to recieve at least some (and probably a lot) of training, because the kinds of technologies you're dealing with in the workplace are usually not taught in school. They hire you with the intention of training you, because your coursework and job/codingg experience make them believe that you're intelligent, have a strong understanding of programming principles, and are capable of learning new things quickly.
...
I couldn't agree more. My career, as a university student, began with an internship during my junior year. I ended up spending a total of 3 semesters doing intern work, interleaving each of these semesters with course work. When I graduated, I was employed by the same "company" that hired me as an intern.

sshuber

July 2nd, 2008, 09:49 AM

dwhitney67

July 2nd, 2008, 11:38 AM

Another huge thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is to network, network, and network some more. This can be the single best thing you do to get a job. The job I was recently recruited for, I have a friend who applied through their website and heard absolutely nothing. I didn't even apply to their website, just gave my resume to a guy my mom knows who is a high up there and got a call a week later for an interview. My friend almost had a 4.0 GPA and didn't even get a call back and I got a job with a 2.5.

Morale of the story is that experience and credentials are almost on par with just knowing people in a company.
A lot people refer to this a the "good ol' boy" network. This hiring approach is open to abuse; a worthy person may be denied employment because a known candidate, who may be less qualified, knows someone on the inside.

Don't get me wrong... a candidate with a 4.0 GPA is not necessarily better than one with a 2.5 GPA. It depends on what the company is seeking, and a lot of times this involves finding a candidate who is personable, willing to go extra distance on projects, willing to help others, etc.

A university education is helpful to open doors to employment, but the candidate still has to step through the door.

sshuber

July 2nd, 2008, 11:53 AM

I agree on the GPA thing. As I said earlier, I switched from Music to CS my junior year after not having math for 4 years. Definitely made my GPA drop just getting acclimated and the pure CS course load, i.e. no electives, just straight major courses. I consider myself a good programmer and very personable as well, where as the other guy was just a good programmer with very poor people skills. When I went to the interview, I brought along all of my projects and showed them off. The interviewer was quite impressed.

Kiefer Rodriguez

July 6th, 2008, 07:13 PM

Well, Im going to keep this short and sweet.
I read an article by Paul Graham recently that spoke of Degree .v. Experience, and more often than not experience comes out on top- You can read about being an astronaut all you want, but that wont help you at zero gravity. As for what you should be doing at the moment, at age fifteen you dont have many choices other than 'stay in school', and I suggest that you finish school, keep programming in your spare time, the best programmers are those who grew up doing it for fun, not for a paycheck.
Also, you remind me alot of me at age fifteen, coming home at night after school and hanging out with friends then booting up my PC to sit for hours solving problems and exploring API's and documentation.
Guido van Rossum gave me these words of advice a few years back and I found it very helpful:
"... Try things you think you wont like, you may surprise yourself, read other people code, try to understand what they were thinking when they wrote it, and with what planned intent ... speak with other programmers, learn about how they solve problems and consider how your methods compare to theirs ...."
And those are my parting words, good luck and keep exploring!

~Kiefer

wrtpeeps

July 6th, 2008, 07:23 PM

You WILL want to turn your experience into a formal, recognised qualification, probably a degree.

Degrees and experience go hand in hand. You won't go very far relying just on past experiences. Likewise a degree (although in this case you have something recognised).

pavel989

July 6th, 2008, 07:36 PM

i started at 14, now i know so much programming and networking stuff. interesting stuff, but i doubt for me generation, there is really gonna be a need for programmers as before.

pmasiar

July 6th, 2008, 10:19 PM

but i doubt for me (my?) generation, there is really gonna be a need for programmers as before.

BS. With more programs being open-source, need for customization will only increase. Possibly the salaries will be more moderate, but as complexity of our system grows, so is the need for people capable to understand and manage it.

One of top programmer thinkers of his time, Dijkstra wrote very thoughtful essay about this problem The humble programmer (http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html). Dijkstra is the guy you should send your thanks that you don't use GOTO anymore (http://david.tribble.com/text/goto.html). Back in his times, it was radical heretic ideas. So don't worry, there are many more ideas to come, we did not started yet :-)

pavel989

July 7th, 2008, 01:50 PM

BS. With more programs being open-source, need for customization will only increase. Possibly the salaries will be more moderate, but as complexity of our system grows, so is the need for people capable to understand and manage it.

One of top programmer thinkers of his time, Dijkstra wrote very thoughtful essay about this problem The humble programmer (http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html). Dijkstra is the guy you should send your thanks that you don't use GOTO anymore (http://david.tribble.com/text/goto.html). Back in his times, it was radical heretic ideas. So don't worry, there are many more ideas to come, we did not started yet :-)
well maybe as we move into more like a mobile world, they'll need developers, but like, by that time, most business related issues and programs could mostly be solved, except for the mobile thing, but yeah i guess