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quinnten83
June 30th, 2008, 11:46 AM
I just read this article (http://www.linux.com/feature/139214) on Linux.com, and I must say that I agree.
I think Ubuntu should start being more of an innovator.
What do you think?

Link: http://www.linux.com/feature/139214

lisati
June 30th, 2008, 11:49 AM
One of the ideas behind Ubuntu is that it is "Linux for human beings" - being innovative is good, but where do you draw the line between innovation for its own sake, and ease of use?

If it wasn't for Ubuntu's ease of installation I'd probably have been put off by other distros......

flytripper
June 30th, 2008, 11:53 AM
hmmm yeah.. my mum would die when she started up and found 640x480 and no sound lol

quinnten83
June 30th, 2008, 11:58 AM
Well, innovation does not have to be user-unfriendly?
Why not make something that will solve issues, or introduce or improve on a feature in such a way that e newbie user immediately takes to it?

Tomatz
June 30th, 2008, 12:00 PM
Also ndiswrapper should come installed by default. I mean how many new users do you see on the forums with laptops etc that can't get there wilan etc setup.

Ubuntu without the Internet is hard work and just having ndiswrapper installed by default would make things a hell of alot easier,

lisati
June 30th, 2008, 12:04 PM
Well, innovation does not have to be user-unfriendly?
Why not make something that will solve issues, or introduce or improve on a feature in such a way that e newbie user immediately takes to it?
Point noted! :)

<offtopic>
I remember back in the days when I was first fumbling around with MS-DOS I wasn't sure about Windows (it was at about version 3.1) or GUIs in general, figuring that they had their place, but messing around with the command line & text-based menus had its place too. Then I converted to Windows, and having tasted Ubuntu, I'm back at not being sure about Windows - the only difference this time is that I'm not quite ready to write off GUI-based interfaces. A well designed GUI has its place, and the CLI has its place - and there's sufficient variety in the GUIs available for Linux to keep the discussion (debate?) alive.
The Gnome GUI provided with Ubuntu played a part in helping me become interested in Linux.
</offtopic>

kpkeerthi
June 30th, 2008, 12:13 PM
I just read this article (http://www.linux.com/feature/139214) on Linux.com, and I must say that I agree.
I think Ubuntu should start being more of an innovator.
What do you think?

Link: http://www.linux.com/feature/139214

I completely agree. The author knows what he is talking about. Thanks for posting.

frodon
June 30th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Some points are a bit of FUD, for me the author is mixing a lot of different things which some are not related to ubuntu at all :

1- There are some tools to configure GRUB and in general GRUB is not something a beginner should tweak at all. Leave to advanced users advanced tweaking, it's the best advice to give.
2- Mounting, i don't know what issue he had but i never had mounting issue with hardy. External drives are just auto-mounted with full rights even with NTFS which a linux user shouldn't use.
3- Sound config, again i wonder what he's takling about. Anyway the best for users willing to have good sound is to buy a sound card with hardware sound mixing, sound issues are mainly related to software sound mixing.
4 networking and IPV6, this issue is definitively not related to any OS matter.
5- Building from source. Since i use ubuntu (started with hoary) i never needed to do such things so i guess this is an advanced trick for advanced users who have advanced needs.
6- Documentation. Hum, this can be improved for sure but compared to paid OS the situation of ubuntu isn't bad.
7- Power managment is not related to ubuntu but to linux kernel development. As for hibernate and sleep if you make sure to buy a linux compatible laptop searching a little before buying a laptop this is not a problem.

This looks like a well written article, it smells good, it has the taste of good article but it isn't. Too much not ubuntu related stuff are mixed in this article, at the end it just muddles the reader about what the real problems are. Some points are really valid though, power management for instance is one of the current priority of kernel developers and linux must provide an answer to this need in further kernel versions.

KillerSponge
June 30th, 2008, 12:29 PM
I must say I haven't experienced any of these problems. Everything, including screen setup, audio, network, other partitions, etc. This was with my desktop, my notebook and my mothers notebook.

Powermanagement and hibernation could be seriously improved, my battery drains a lot faster when on ubuntu, and hibernation works, but getting out of hibernation takes longer than a full reboot...

Sure people have problems, and the developers should continue working on them. But it's difficult to find the balance between stability and innovation.

tadcan
June 30th, 2008, 12:33 PM
I was strangely gratified to read point one about screen resolution. I updated 8.04 and now I have 640x480 resolution. Being a clueless user, I wish it didn't happen.

For those that can help

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=843723

Tomatz
June 30th, 2008, 12:44 PM
I was strangely gratified to read point one about screen resolution. I updated 8.04 and now I have 640x480 resolution. Being a clueless user, I wish it didn't happen.

For those that can help

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=843723

Have posted a possible fix ;)

Canis familiaris
June 30th, 2008, 01:18 PM
Few points are of extreme importance. But few points are wrong.
(1) Problems in video/graphics is a major gripe and it takes lots of time and effort in setting that right. Personally I feel Ubuntu should not default to any resolution below 1024x768 unless it is configured that way explicitely by the user.
(2) Yes there must be an menu option to get back GRUB in the boot menu of the live CD itself. (Why cant they incorporate features of SuperGRUB disk in the CD)
(3) Mounting of hard disks is pretty simple. I dunno what the author is talking about. But there should be a tool where one can configure Disk Mounting. There was a tool called Disks in Dapper. Why was that removed?
Personally I want that back.
(4) I havent experienced stopping of Ubuntu installation like that. But then I always unplug the cable while the installation process.
(5) Sound works pretty well. I havent placed that problem in any PCs in use. Only minority of users face the problem. Personally I hav eless sound issues in Ubuntu rather than Windows.
(6) Lets face it. Whoever has knowledge of what IPv6 is would google and get the solution. Who has no knowledge of IPv6 would still be screwed up even in presence of GUI.
(7) It is a fact Power Management in Linux lags far behind than Windows. Suspend and Hibernate work sometimes, sometimes they dont. But even if it works, it is mightily slow. Especially Hibernate is very slow.
(8) E-Mail migration is not needed by most users.
(9) Documentation is very readily available in the net. But is scattered IMO. It would be great if Canonical puts a more in depth help system accessible offline and also having ability to access online documentation, similar to Help and Support in XP. Since these would be mostly web pages, with few images, they would not take too much space either.
(10) I do not agree newbies would ever install programs by compiling by source. And those who wish to do so would not be afraid of the terminal.

quinnten83
June 30th, 2008, 01:59 PM
Few points are of extreme importance. But few points are wrong.
(1) Problems in video/graphics is a major gripe and it takes lots of time and effort in setting that right. Personally I feel Ubuntu should not default to any resolution below 1024x768 unless it is configured that way explicitely by the user.
(2) Yes there must be an menu option to get back GRUB in the boot menu of the live CD itself. (Why cant they incorporate features of SuperGRUB disk in the CD)
(3) Mounting of hard disks is pretty simple. I dunno what the author is talking about. But there should be a tool where one can configure Disk Mounting. There was a tool called Disks in Dapper. Why was that removed?
Personally I want that back.
(4) I havent experienced stopping of Ubuntu installation like that. But then I always unplug the cable while the installation process.
(5) Sound works pretty well. I havent placed that problem in any PCs in use. Only minority of users face the problem. Personally I hav eless sound issues in Ubuntu rather than Windows.
(6) Lets face it. Whoever has knowledge of what IPv6 is would google and get the solution. Who has no knowledge of IPv6 would still be screwed up even in presence of GUI.
(7) It is a fact Power Management in Linux lags far behind than Windows. Suspend and Hibernate work sometimes, sometimes they dont. But even if it works, it is mightily slow. Especially Hibernate is very slow.
(8) E-Mail migration is not needed by most users.
(9) Documentation is very readily available in the net. But is scattered IMO. It would be great if Canonical puts a more in depth help system accessible offline and also having ability to access online documentation, similar to Help and Support in XP. Since these would be mostly web pages, with few images, they would not take too much space either.
(10) I do not agree newbies would ever install programs by compiling by source. And those who wish to do so would not be afraid of the terminal.

Well, most of the 10 points I agree with. Not necessarily only for the newbie, but from an inovation and evolution point of view.
- we use GRUB, but if there is something newer and better, than why not use that?

- The stopping of the installation, i've never experienced either, but some people have that. More to the point this is an example of an error creeping up and the system not giving you any feedback. I hate that, at least windows gives you an error report or a BSOD. Sometimes in Linux/Ubuntu software crashes and the windows just closes, no mention of anything. Error handling should be perfected.

- Sound: lately, my Rhythmbox temporarily loses sound whenever I click a link in firefox. I don't remember having this problem in the previous version. Also if you have two soundcards (onboard and a PCI one), it's still difficult to make Ubuntu stick to the soundcard of your choosing. It will keep defaulting to the onboard.

I think the author is mostly saying that Ubuntu tends to implement stuff without improving or fixing them and that makes things newbie-hostile. Now, i don't completely agree with that, but I think we could work more on the fixing and improvement.
Also, and this has been a complaint of a fedora developer I know, Ubuntu does not contribute enough to the development of the linux Tools, such as gnome and the kernel. I don't know how much of this is true, but I think that if we did, we would be contributing to make Linux as a whole much more user friendly.

frodon
June 30th, 2008, 02:19 PM
- Sound: lately, my Rhythmbox temporarily loses sound whenever I click a link in firefoxThis is a pulseaudio issue, should be fixed soon as pulseaudio is rather young. Nothing ubuntu can do on this.
This is what i mean when i say that this article mix too much different things. Pulseaudio issues are related to pulseaudio not ubuntu. The choice of implementing pulseaudio is ubuntu related however.


I don't remember having this problem in the previous version. Also if you have two soundcards (onboard and a PCI one), it's still difficult to make Ubuntu stick to the soundcard of your choosing. It will keep defaulting to the onboard.If you're interested i saw the solution of this issue somewhere in the forum.

Also i don't know what's the point with GRUB, please explain me why and what you want to edit in GRUB, because for a newbie i don't see any need of configuring tweaking GRUB.

lukjad007
June 30th, 2008, 02:24 PM
I just read this article (http://www.linux.com/feature/139214) on Linux.com, and I must say that I agree.
I think Ubuntu should start being more of an innovator.
What do you think?

Link: http://www.linux.com/feature/139214

These are valid points. I can't say that today I am unduly affected by any of them but I will say this. Ubuntu 8.04 is the least polished version of Ubuntu I have seen. (I started with Dapper Drake 6.06 on a PII.) I can't say I don't like it, it certainly has its good points, but if I had know then what I know now I would have done a dual boot of Feisty Fawn and Hardy Heron. I would have used Hardy for the newer cutting edge stuff and Feisty for the movies, surfing and chatting. Hardy is in no way as bad as Vista but (IMHO) it suffers from the same basic conceptual flaws in that it is not completed when it was released (some dependencies for a few packages were missing from the repos) and we were lead more by enthusiasm into this release then by merits. It may have a much of cool new features but those are worth diddly-squat if you have trouble browsing the web and watching movie clips and viewing DVDs. (And yes, I do have all the codex installed.) I like Hardy and will not downgrade. I am not a fearmonger and do not want to scare people away from Ubuntu. Perhaps it's just my old PC cannot handle the demands for 8.04 like it could for older versions.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

Canis familiaris
June 30th, 2008, 02:31 PM
...if you have trouble browsing the web and watching movie clips and viewing DVDs. (And yes, I do have all the codex installed.)

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

Did you install the ubuntu-restricted-extras?

quinnten83
June 30th, 2008, 02:46 PM
This is a pulseaudio issue, should be fixed soon as pulseaudio is rather young. Nothing ubuntu can do on this.
This is what i mean when i say that this article mix too much different things. Pulseaudio issues are related to pulseaudio not ubuntu. The choice of implementing pulseaudio is ubuntu related however.

If you're interested i saw the solution of this issue somewhere in the forum.

Also i don't know what's the point with GRUB, please explain me why and what you want to edit in GRUB, because for a newbie i don't see any need of configuring tweaking GRUB.

Thanx, i allready managed to blacklist the onboard soundcard. I just sometimes have issues with my microphone now.

about the grub issue, let's say you dualboot, It would be nice if you can easily configure grub to start windows up automatically or change the defautl login time, or some such. Yes there is a graphical editor somewhere, but you need to install it.

They don't need to remove grub as far as I am concerned, cause I've learned to live with configuring the config file. But if there is something newer and better, than can also easily implemented, than why not use that?

Tomatz
June 30th, 2008, 02:58 PM
about the grub issue, let's say you dualboot, It would be nice if you can easily configure grub to start windows up automatically or change the defautl login time, or some such. Yes there is a graphical editor somewhere, but you need to install it.


You can do that by editing /boot/grub/menu.lst or there is a gui app to configure grub called SUM.

More info here:

http://ubuntusoftware.info/sum.html

K.Mandla
June 30th, 2008, 03:14 PM
I just read this article (http://www.linux.com/feature/139214) on Linux.com, and I must say that I agree.
I think Ubuntu should start being more of an innovator.
What do you think?
I think it's a load of rubbish. Cherrypicking "Canonical's forums" and plucking ten problems that Ubuntu needs to fix is ridiculous.

I may as well skim through The Times and accuse Britain of ten social problems -- then demand they fix things, because it's keeping people from immigrating to the UK.

It's amazing what passes for "journalism" sometimes. I expected better from linux.com, but I guess I was deluding myself.

dburnett77
June 30th, 2008, 03:20 PM
GRUB is difficult due to it's being able to handle USB, external, IDE and also SATA. And, with tweaking SCSI.

And, mishandling can lead to physical damage to the drive. Which is why you have to pay attention and know what you're doing.

An easy work around, for this instance, is to use a graphical GRUB manager.

search for 'grub gui'. There are several.

As far as the others, thank the industry shift to larger system bus bandwidth. And the need for newer equipment to handle it. No longer are the days where any component's data speed is MHz, but now GHz. Which is, of course, and order of magnitude.

It should level off around the end of this year. But, with R&D the way it is, "It's gonna be a bumpy ride..."

Similar to when HD's went from MFM and RLL encoding to data-packet. Which was phenomenal, BTW.

BDNiner
June 30th, 2008, 03:41 PM
I don't see these 10 issues as problems with ubuntu per say but with linux in general. I guess most new people see the current state of linux as a drop in replacement for windows but it is not. There are still some power user steps that need to be taken inorder to get ubuntu or any other linux distro running on a computer to the same level that windows ran on it before. New users don't realise that their computers were designed to run windows and will run linux if the user is willing to sometimes jump through hoops.

I think lists like the article are needed. they point out issues that end users are having that may not neccessarily be bugs but more along the lines of usability issues.

frodon
June 30th, 2008, 03:43 PM
BTW, you are talking about GRUB GUI configuration but have you tested the available tools yet ?

startup manager :
http://web.telia.com/%7Eu88005282/sum/screenshots.html

qgrubeditor:
http://www.qt-apps.org/content/show.php/QGRUBEditor?content=60391

kgrubeditor:
http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php/KGRUBEditor?content=75442

What a newbie need to do that can't be done with these tools already ?

lukjad007
July 1st, 2008, 01:15 AM
Did you install the ubuntu-restricted-extras?

Yes. I have also a multitude of media players including Gxine and VLC. VLC is incredibly choppy and Gxine won't even open my DVD, much less play it. See my post:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=797937
It's incredibly annoying.

Paqman
July 1st, 2008, 01:31 AM
I agree with most of the author's points. Sound, screen setup and disk mounting in particular. Nobody should be asked to edit fstab, least of all a new user.

I disagree that compiling from source is a core activity though. If you really want to be compiling from source, why are you using a distro with such a good package manager? Checkinstall is great, but compiling should be a last-resort solution, not part of the main feature set.

tubasoldier
July 1st, 2008, 02:01 AM
I read the article. I haven't had these issues for a few years on Linux. I'm not sure if its that the distros have gotten better or that my knowledge of Linux has increased dramatically. Either way, I don't agree with most of the article. Its well written and certainly contains concerns that should be addressed. In the end most of these issues don't exist to the extent that he portrays.

steveneddy
July 1st, 2008, 02:15 AM
I guess I was always blessed with Linux compatible hardware. I always ran this same type of hardware because it was closest to the IBM PC stuff, and that is what Linux supports the best.

I have HP PC's and printers, Linksys routers and a System76 laptop.

I learned early on that the wrong hardware will kill a good Linux install.

I'm also a freak for keeping the inside of all of the house PC's clean. Even a little dust in there will make a PC run funny.

Patience. One should not be impatient when trying to learn another OS, especially one that is so different from the one they just came off of.

I just reinstalled Hardy on my 18 month old System76 laptop and didn't have to install the System76 driver. Everything worked out of the box!

Ubuntu found the Nvidia driver for me and installed it and once I remembered the password for the router, I had wireless.

And, I might add. When you are using Linux of any flavor, you will have to get to the command line sooner or later for one reason or another. Just jump in, the water's fine.

When in Rome, do as the Romans.

danbuter
July 1st, 2008, 02:17 AM
Yes. I have also a multitude of media players including Gxine and VLC. VLC is incredibly choppy and Gxine won't even open my DVD, much less play it. See my post:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=797937
It's incredibly annoying.

Have you added the medibuntu repo and installed libdvdcss2? That is what is required for most DVDs. Google Ubuntu libdvdcss2 for how to.

aysiu
July 1st, 2008, 02:28 AM
Why not make something that will solve issues, or introduce or improve on a feature in such a way that e newbie user immediately takes to it? I agree. Ubuntu should be sold preinstalled on in-your-face (as opposed to tucked away in the dark corners of the Dell website, or at an unknown online vendor's website) consumer-targeted computers.

chris4585
July 1st, 2008, 02:44 AM
Nice article. I agree, most of those issues I've had.

id1337x
July 1st, 2008, 03:10 AM
Building from source? How is that a problem? Are you scared of the command line or something? Generally this isn't even needed and when I've done it, its been very easy.

Most of the things there can be done I guess we just need more contributions for more documentation but I still think we beat most other OS's in many of those categories.

kevdog
July 1st, 2008, 03:23 AM
Although I skimmed the article and have had a problem with most of the items mentioned, within a few hours of skimming the forums I have had most of the problems resolved (a recount of when I knew nothing about linux and was installing Ubuntu for the first time -- my first linux distro). Unlike MACs who support a limited number of hardware, Ubuntu is likely to have some problems due to poor manufacture support for Linux combined with attempting to run on a variety of platforms. I congratulate the Ubuntu community at large for overcoming most of these obstacles. Its hard for me to separate Ubuntu from the forums since I think the two are so tightly comingled. If it were not for the forums, I would like be onto another distribution by now. Although the author has gripes, I think part II or a followup article should be -- I went to the Ubuntu forums and found resolutions on all of the issues mentioned EXCEPT .... This would be a much more fair write-up and but frankly take a lot more time.

chucky chuckaluck
July 1st, 2008, 03:28 AM
the screen resolution thing is a particular annoyance of mine. it seems like there should be a part of the installation which just simply asks you to check off the resolution you wish to use (if i'm not mistaken, i believe the breezy installation did exactly that). why guess?

amitabhishek
July 1st, 2008, 01:16 PM
Good article, the author hits the nail bang on its head. From an average user point of view optimal resolution, a working net connection is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if its Ubuntu related or not. Overall GUI needs to be a bit more polished i.e. smaller, softer icons etc.

Dixon Bainbridge
July 1st, 2008, 01:27 PM
Show me an OS where you couldnt write a ten point list of things that needs fixing? Hell, I could write a 400 point list on OSX, XP and ubuntu each.


And the term "user-friendly" should be wiped from the face of the planet. There is no such thing. There is familiar and unfamiliar. Learning makes things become familiar. Don't take time to learn something, then it stays unfamiliar. End of.

radical3
July 1st, 2008, 01:59 PM
Show me an OS where you couldnt write a ten point list of things that needs fixing? Hell, I could write a 400 point list on OSX, XP and ubuntu each.


And the term "user-friendly" should be wiped from the face of the planet. There is no such thing. There is familiar and unfamiliar. Learning makes things become familiar. Don't take time to learn something, then it stays unfamiliar. End of.

OMG you hit every nail on their shiny heads

Dixon Bainbridge for the win!!

quinnten83
July 1st, 2008, 02:01 PM
I think lists like the article are needed. they point out issues that end users are having that may not neccessarily be bugs but more along the lines of usability issues.

I agree.
I love Ubuntu, I just wish it would be the best!

chucky chuckaluck
July 1st, 2008, 02:24 PM
And the term "user-friendly" should be wiped from the face of the planet. There is no such thing. There is familiar and unfamiliar. Learning makes things become familiar. Don't take time to learn something, then it stays unfamiliar. End of.

by your definition (which i agree with), we can see that there is a great deal of things that the general user is already familiar with. while those of us who have come to appreciate the cli way of doing things, most users are gui bound. so, making all the setup options available to the new user, in the form of easily found gui options, is the way to have a distro that is all inclusive. i don't expect this of distros like arch and gentoo which are not intended for the general population, but i do expect it of the distros that are trying to be as user friendly as they can be.

Dixon Bainbridge
July 1st, 2008, 02:36 PM
by your definition (which i agree with), we can see that there is a great deal of things that the general user is already familiar with. while those of us who have come to appreciate the cli way of doing things, most users are gui bound. so, making all the setup options available to the new user, in the form of easily found gui options, is the way to have a distro that is all inclusive. i don't expect this of distros like arch and gentoo which are not intended for the general population, but i do expect it of the distros that are trying to be as user friendly as they can be.

Part of me agrees with you, the other part just thinks that people should get off their lazy backsides and take the time to learn something new. I'm amazed that people seem to think that's its possible to do something new and not learn anything... wtf?? You can't make something instantly easy to use for all people, so I just don't see the point in trying to. We live in an increasingly facile and lazy society, where we just cant be bothered to take the time to do anything. I mean, how hard is it to look something up on google? The advantage of that is, you might stumble across something else worth knowing too - happens to me all the time.

How do people manage with other things in life?

init1
July 1st, 2008, 03:21 PM
Meh, none of those are issues for me. What is an issue for me is apps changing my brightness.

Twitch6000
July 1st, 2008, 04:23 PM
@the admins who have been harsh to this article.
Ok I think I for once see why that linsux.org site was made and also see mr.physcos point.
It isn't really Linux that is bad at all it is the community.
I am saying this because simply this.
Someone of this community finds a nice well wrote out opinion on ubuntu at linux.org and you start just bashing people who are with the statement and just say it never happened to you.
Heck I know atleast 4 of those things happened to me in both gusty and hardy.
If I am right all the topic maker was doing was trying to help the ubuntu makers fix ubuntu for 8.10.

I think this also might be why everyone or mostly everyone at the PClinuxOS and debian forums dislikes ubuntu users.

frodon
July 1st, 2008, 04:30 PM
@Twitch6000, you should learn to respect others view of things, everyone has the right to post his/her opinion in a courteous way and this shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

You're somewhat reproaching users to bash the article bashing yourself the users of this thread, it's paradoxical don't you think ?

aysiu
July 1st, 2008, 04:51 PM
I didn't see any moderators bashing anyone. People have a right to disagree with an article. There weren't any personal attacks, just respectful disagreement. It was only the post accusing the mods of "bashing" that decided to make this discussion personal.

If you have a legitimate complaint to make, post in the Resolution Center. Otherwise, let's leave the personal attacks out of the discussion. Thanks.

konungursvia
July 1st, 2008, 05:25 PM
I love linux, but I agree with *all* of the author Mr. Reed's points. With the exception of Dapper, I have had to fiddle to get my external USB drives to mount consistently in Ubuntu. All too frequently, with a new install they didn't show up at all, required manual root mounting, or mounted themselves under "new" mount points like Drive_ and Drive__ and Drive___ which resulted in applications not finding music playlists and the like. I liked the fiddling, luckily, because I learned from it. But it should have worked out of the box.

Dixon Bainbridge
July 1st, 2008, 05:35 PM
I love linux, but I agree with *all* of the author Mr. Reed's points. With the exception of Dapper, I have had to fiddle to get my external USB drives to mount consistently in Ubuntu. All too frequently, with a new install they didn't show up at all, required manual root mounting, or mounted themselves under "new" mount points like Drive_ and Drive__ and Drive___ which resulted in applications not finding music playlists and the like. I liked the fiddling, luckily, because I learned from it. But it should have worked out of the box.

I've had to do the same with XP, on numerous occasions. One time, XP decided for no reason whatsoever to reassign all of my drive letters. That was fun. The point is, no OS is perfect, there are simply too many hardware configurations for a one OS fits all. We all have to tweak, regardless of system. OS X is a pain in the butt with my Nikon D40x. It mounts it when it feels like it - despite it being supported. Other people mount it no problems 100% of the time. Computers are eccentric, and despite our best efforts they do not conform to any kind of logic, but we are told that they do and should.

Sooner we realise that, the easier it is to manage an OS.

Tomatz
July 1st, 2008, 06:05 PM
i've Had To Do The Same With Xp, On Numerous Occasions. One Time, Xp Decided For No Reason Whatsoever To Reassign All Of My Drive Letters. That Was Fun. The Point Is, No Os Is Perfect, There Are Simply Too Many Hardware Configurations For A One Os Fits All. We All Have To Tweak, Regardless Of System. Os X Is A Pain In The Butt With My Nikon D40x. It Mounts It When It Feels Like It - Despite It Being Supported. Other People Mount It No Problems 100% Of The Time. Computers Are Eccentric, And Despite Our Best Efforts They Do Not Conform To Any Kind Of Logic, But We Are Told That They Do And Should.

Sooner We Realise That, The Easier It Is To Manage An Os.

+1

cardinals_fan
July 1st, 2008, 08:16 PM
@the admins who have been harsh to this article.
Ok I think I for once see why that linsux.org site was made and also see mr.physcos point.
It isn't really Linux that is bad at all it is the community.
I am saying this because simply this.
Someone of this community finds a nice well wrote out opinion on ubuntu at linux.org and you start just bashing people who are with the statement and just say it never happened to you.
Heck I know atleast 4 of those things happened to me in both gusty and hardy.
If I am right all the topic maker was doing was trying to help the ubuntu makers fix ubuntu for 8.10.

I think this also might be why everyone or mostly everyone at the PClinuxOS and debian forums dislikes ubuntu users.
So your experiences are more valid than everyone else's?

chucky chuckaluck
July 1st, 2008, 08:39 PM
Part of me agrees with you, the other part just thinks that people should get off their lazy backsides and take the time to learn something new. I'm amazed that people seem to think that's its possible to do something new and not learn anything... wtf?? You can't make something instantly easy to use for all people, so I just don't see the point in trying to. We live in an increasingly facile and lazy society, where we just cant be bothered to take the time to do anything. I mean, how hard is it to look something up on google? The advantage of that is, you might stumble across something else worth knowing too - happens to me all the time.

How do people manage with other things in life?

a lot of people are busy and have other things to do than learn a new operating system. a lot of people don't want to learn about fuel injection, either, they just want their cars to work, so they can get to their job, pick up their screaming kids from soccer, go to the grocery store, etc. if we want these people to use linux, we're going to have to make it easy for them to get up and running so they can do what they need to do. if you want to insist on hardcore, then the only distro that should exist should be linux from scratch (none of this hwd nonsense those lazy arch users have, for example).

madjr
July 1st, 2008, 09:30 PM
@the admins who have been harsh to this article.
Ok I think I for once see why that linsux.org site was made and also see mr.physcos point.
It isn't really Linux that is bad at all it is the community.
I am saying this because simply this.
Someone of this community finds a nice well wrote out opinion on ubuntu at linux.org and you start just bashing people who are with the statement and just say it never happened to you.
Heck I know atleast 4 of those things happened to me in both gusty and hardy.
If I am right all the topic maker was doing was trying to help the ubuntu makers fix ubuntu for 8.10.

I think this also might be why everyone or mostly everyone at the PClinuxOS and debian forums dislikes ubuntu users.

+1

also the author points from the start that these are the top 10 problems new users post in these forums.

i agree with most, specially easy recovery and documentation

Dixon Bainbridge
July 1st, 2008, 09:36 PM
a lot of people are busy and have other things to do than learn a new operating system. a lot of people don't want to learn about fuel injection, either, they just want their cars to work, so they can get to their job, pick up their screaming kids from soccer, go to the grocery store, etc. if we want these people to use linux, we're going to have to make it easy for them to get up and running so they can do what they need to do. if you want to insist on hardcore, then the only distro that should exist should be linux from scratch (none of this hwd nonsense those lazy arch users have, for example).

Yeah, I understand that, but what I'm saying is, people's expectations of what a computer and OS can do are not realistic. Things do not work as they should. There isnt a single computer user in the world that hasnt at some point yelled "WTF ARE YOU DOING?" at their monitor at some point, because the OS has decided, for whatever reason, to spazz out. We're all had to search on endless forums to get (for example from my past) THAT STUPID REALTEK DRIVER TO DRIVE THE AUDIO ON MY MOBO THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE SUPPORTED BY XP BUT WONT WORK IF YOU FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS, BUT DOES WORK IF YOU DO SOMETHING REALLY ARCANE LIKE STAND ON YOUR HEAD AND WIGGLE YOUR LEG IN A COUNTERCLOCK DIRECTION WHILST WHISTLING THE ITALIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM... oooh, its decided to install.

Computers arent logical. They never work properly. They will always need tweaking. They are a law unto themselves. Accept it. Its easier that way.

:)

Tomatz
July 1st, 2008, 09:45 PM
How long till this is in OMGPP???

Kernel Sanders
July 1st, 2008, 09:57 PM
Only 10? Vista FTW!!!111oneoneone [/troll] :lolflag:

To be serious though, for me Ubuntu has just a few small problems. I'd like it to look awesome right out of the box, which intrepid seems to be addressing. Secondly, Ubuntu doesn't play nicely with my intel wireless 3945ABG network connection.

Apart from that it's fine really :KS

strunal
July 1st, 2008, 10:29 PM
The main problem for me was the minimum 350 RAM to install where XP is less than 200 MB, so ubuntu is not for everyone


Desktop CD

The desktop CD allows you to try Kubuntu without changing your computer at all, and at your option to install it permanently later. This type of CD is what most people will want to use. You will need at least 384MB of RAM to install from this CD.

aysiu
July 1st, 2008, 10:33 PM
The main problem for me was the minimum 350 RAM to install where XP is less than 200 MB, so ubuntu is not for everyone
The Desktop CD now has the option to install without running a full live session.

You can also use the Alternate CD, which will work on even 128 MB of RAM (possibly less).

strunal
July 1st, 2008, 10:54 PM
The Desktop CD now has the option to install without running a full live session.

You can also use the Alternate CD, which will work on even 128 MB of RAM (possibly less).


AH! the 384MB of RAM is for the experience of the live session and not just the full install?, it was a bit of a shock when i first found out about the huge RAM required and felt it was not in the nature of Ubuntu

Tomatz
July 1st, 2008, 10:59 PM
AH! the 384MB of RAM is for the experience of the live session and not just the full install?, it was a bit of a shock when i first found out about the huge RAM required and felt it was not in the nature of Ubuntu

Considering the whole OS, WM etc is basically being run in physical ram (no swapping etc), that's tiny...

aysiu
July 1st, 2008, 11:06 PM
384 MB is for installation while the live session is running.

If you want to do only an installation (with no full live session) or only a live session (with no installation), then 256 MB should be sufficient (if a little slow).

koenn
July 1st, 2008, 11:07 PM
I think it's a load of rubbish. Cherrypicking "Canonical's forums" and plucking ten problems that Ubuntu needs to fix is ridiculous.

I may as well skim through The Times and accuse Britain of ten social problems -- then demand they fix things, because it's keeping people from immigrating to the UK.

It's amazing what passes for "journalism" sometimes. I expected better from linux.com, but I guess I was deluding myself.

+1.
I particularly liked the " ... and they're all solvable".

The whole article reminded me of these "ubuntu should do this" "ubuntu should do that" "what ubuntu really needs [to become mainstream] is ..." threads on these forums, just better written.

dburnett77
July 1st, 2008, 11:13 PM
July 3rd's release addressed about two thirds of the problems.
We'll have to see if 8.0.4.1 is what it's cracked up to be.

As far as issues concerning eye-popping dazzle, why not quit being so smug?

You don't impress me that no one is groveling at your feet because you're:

MARVELOUS!

gn2
July 2nd, 2008, 12:35 AM
Ten answers to the article in order:

1: Get an Nvidia graphics adapter for under 20

2: Read Hermanzone and learn how simple it is to edit Grub

3: Use pysdm, it's in the repos and is a GUI mount tool

4: Use the Alternate CD (or just use the extremely simple solution already mentioned in the article)

5: Completely uninstall Pulse Audio

6: Blacklist ipv6

7: At last, a genuine niggle (for a few people/hardware)

8: Use webmail instead (which some people prefer)

9: Click the Help icon in the panel

10: Ubuntu has massive repos, and if the software you want isn't included, there are usually .debs available. The chances of "having" to compile from source are extremely small, personally (in almost three years of using it) I have yet to compile anything from source for Ubuntu.

I am surprised that this article ever saw the light of day on that website as the points raised are mostly trivial and certainly not dealbreakers in my opinion.
Just illustrates either a lack of knowledge on the part of the writer or making mischief.

madjr
July 2nd, 2008, 03:43 AM
Ten answers to the article in order:

1: Get an Nvidia graphics adapter for under 20

2: Read Hermanzone and learn how simple it is to edit Grub

3: Use pysdm, it's in the repos and is a GUI mount tool

4: Use the Alternate CD (or just use the extremely simple solution already mentioned in the article)

5: Completely uninstall Pulse Audio

6: Blacklist ipv6

7: At last, a genuine niggle (for a few people/hardware)

8: Use webmail instead (which some people prefer)

9: Click the Help icon in the panel

10: Ubuntu has massive repos, and if the software you want isn't included, there are usually .debs available. The chances of "having" to compile from source are extremely small, personally (in almost three years of using it) I have yet to compile anything from source for Ubuntu.

I am surprised that this article ever saw the light of day on that website as the points raised are mostly trivial and certainly not dealbreakers in my opinion.
Just illustrates either a lack of knowledge on the part of the writer or making mischief.

those are exactly the things new users could avoid doing..

that's the authors intention

it's not a rant, he clearly states those are the TOP 10 repeated posted problems in the forums that are solvable.

oh and he has a laptop

Yuki_Nagato
July 2nd, 2008, 04:35 AM
Ehh.

Some of those points are valid, but GRUB, for example, I have had no problem with.

Fedora is generally "bleeding edge," while other distros work with more stable junk.

I do not know. I have been bouncing around between distros on a whim.

chucky chuckaluck
July 2nd, 2008, 07:28 AM
Computers arent logical. They never work properly. They will always need tweaking. They are a law unto themselves. Accept it. Its easier that way.

i agree, but we don't need to make it harder, on principle, for those who are inclined to invest their efforts in other activities, is all i'm saying. so, for a distro like ubuntu, which is setting out to make things easier for the general user, it makes sense to look critically at those things that still stick out as obvious needs. if my neighbor had to edit his xorg.conf file, just to get a 1280x800 resolution, he'd be doomed (see sample conversation below).

my neighbor: i downloaded this program, but it won't work.

me: uh...you have to install it first, chief.

neighbor: oooooooooooooh.

beniwtv
July 2nd, 2008, 10:26 AM
Show me an OS where you couldnt write a ten point list of things that needs fixing? Hell, I could write a 400 point list on OSX, XP and ubuntu each.


And the term "user-friendly" should be wiped from the face of the planet. There is no such thing. There is familiar and unfamiliar. Learning makes things become familiar. Don't take time to learn something, then it stays unfamiliar. End of.

+1000^214234

You hit the nail on the head.

A small story that happened me recently:

I bought a "media-center" PC, built myself from scratch, with the idea of running Ubuntu. It was a MSI board, a AMD Phenom and two 500GB disks.

I had a old 80GB HDD lying around, so I figured out I'd install Windows on it for gaming. Long story short, the install CD (which I bought legally!) didn't boot. It hung at detecting hardware. Luckily, I can google and found a solution. And don't even get me started on my 4000+ points list against Windows, which I did repair for a living during years.

If I had bought a pre-made PC with Windows on it, this would have not happened, and appeared that everything "just worked", which it doesn't.

The key is that a normal Joe-average would NEVER install an operating system himself. I know at least 20 people, who do not know how to install Windows either, why do you think they'd have more luck with Ubuntu?

I'm amazed on how many people rant about Linux being difficult, if Windows is just as difficult for the average Joe. Give me a pre-made PC, and Ubuntu will be fine...

But the most important part: Use what works for you. I have requirement Windows could not meet, so I use Linux. Others have requirements that only work in Windows. To each its own. Ranting won't help anyone - not even Microsoft.

Cheers,