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z0mbie
June 25th, 2008, 07:52 AM
Speaking at a conference in New York on Wednesday, Microsoft’s chief architect, Ray Ozzie, said open source is a bigger threat to the software juggernaut than Google is. He says open source developers are not restricted by the best interests of shareholders and potentially are, therefore, a stronger market force.

-itbusinessedge.com (http://www.itbusinessedge.com/blogs/osb/?p=386)

So they're finally admitting it?

bobblehat
June 25th, 2008, 07:56 AM
I guess it always will be until they stop seeing it as a threat and start seeing the opportunities like any real innovator does at the moment.

Methuselah
June 25th, 2008, 08:27 AM
In other words, open source cannot be bought or assimilated so it has to be beaten on technical grounds.

I have my doubts microsoft, as it exists now, can compete in the long run.

The unix culture is one of very focused design and thd very distributed nature of open source development pushes it even more in that direction.

Fore example, we need at least the linux kernel, Xorg and Gnome to have anything resembling a decent desktop. Yet all this inter-operating software is developed by completely separate teams that don't have direct control of another team's decisions.

Since the code is not centrally controlled there can't be any spaghetti interactions out of convenience or pragmatism. There is a well defined interface between X and the kernel and between X and Gnome. The decentralised teams complements the unix philosophy.

I'd imagine MS windows is much more complex with graphics/window management code embedded in the kernel with intricate dependencies between parts. IMO, it is becoming more and more difficult for MS to manage this codebase. Anybody remember all the things that were supposed to be in Vista that were cut after several years of development and who knows how many man-hours? WinFS anybody?

Add to this the burden to retain binary backwards compatibility because of the inability to rewrite programs/drivers for which source is unavailable and which manufacturers no longer support. Obviously open source doesn't have this problem.

They say OSS is a greater threat than google but google is a threat.
Google represents the shifting of computing away from the desktop (where windows temporarily holds sway) and towards the internet. In addition, you have cross platform browsers like firefox taking off and limiting microsoft's influence in that arena. It will become increasingly difficult to push Windows/IE specific technologies on the internet when adopters would risk alienating a large portion of the web browsing public. (Silverlight can kiss my ...)

IMO, despite its appearance of invincibility, Microsoft is operating under a significant number of constraints. It's only a matter of time before this become more obvious. In mt view, Microsoft's heyday has passed. I think Bill Gates knew this too, as does Ozzie, his replacement.

Barrucadu
June 25th, 2008, 09:05 AM
Oh, good to see them admitting it.

Waistless
June 25th, 2008, 09:46 AM
To summarise in a sentence, if you try to outdo an apple with an orange, you will fail.

In regards to Vista, I think Microsoft was trying to outdo its' other competitor, Apple, which was a pretty terrible decision on their part. They should be playing to their strengths, not their weaknesses. OSX is NOT a competitor to Windows, it can only be installed on Mac hardware, and I can't see Apple changing that policy. In trying to make the experience easier and compensate its weaknesses, e.g. streamlined install, prettier interface, UAC, sidebar, *the list goes on*, they made the experience worse. The last time I checked with XP, it was the OEM or enthusiasts job to install Windows, to tweak it to their needs, etc. That's what made Windows XP what it was, it was flexible, name one mainstream peice of hardware or software which doesn't work on XP.
Now that Microsoft has adopted a policy of tighter driver control, tighter hardware control, tighter software control, the same heirarchy as OSX... no wonder it's going downhill.

Maybe now that they recognise OSS as a fierce competitor, Microsoft might start playing to its strengths again.

etnlIcarus
June 25th, 2008, 09:57 AM
I find it somewhat of an odd statement since Google supports OSS; use OSS and I'm quite certain they are using OSS to send an implied, "F U", to MS. It's not like the two are mutually exclusive and I'd consider Google + OSS to be a bigger threat than either individually.

Tomatz
June 25th, 2008, 09:58 AM
I myself see Microsoft moving toward the Apple model in the next few years myself. It's the only way they will survive.

Canis familiaris
June 25th, 2008, 10:00 AM
-itbusinessedge.com (http://www.itbusinessedge.com/blogs/osb/?p=386)

So they're finally admitting it?

So finally they have become honest!

Waistless
June 25th, 2008, 10:02 AM
I myself see Microsoft moving toward the Apple model in the next few years myself. It's the only way they will survive.

:confused: Read my previous post, they won't survive doing that

Canis familiaris
June 25th, 2008, 10:05 AM
I think Microsoft will survive because of its existing user base 80% of whom just refuse to switch to other platforms for no reason at all.

Canis familiaris
June 25th, 2008, 10:12 AM
:confused: Read my previous post, they won't survive doing that

Yes, they will suffer terribly if they try to copy Apple but they'll still be successful because the world is full of people who just take to them and love them whatsover.
And these people are so IGNORANT, as I can quote some of the real life people:


Vista rox, Look at Flip3D. Rips apart the **** of the Macs and those Lie-nux users


Ubuntu sucks! It cannot run my program.exe


They: Linux is very difficult to use. It is geeks OS.
I: Have you ever really tried Linux.
They: No, but I have *heard* that it is very difficult!


Where is the Internet Explorer icon?

kernelhaxor
June 25th, 2008, 10:13 AM
I'd imagine MS windows is much more complex with graphics/window management code embedded in the kernel with intricate dependencies between parts. IMO, it is becoming more and more difficult for MS to manage this codebase.

I'd say ur imagination is very far from reality .. It's not that simple .. Windows has layers too .. Have you even looked at the Windows source?



Add to this the burden to retain binary backwards compatibility because of the inability to rewrite programs/drivers for which source is unavailable and which manufacturers no longer support. Obviously open source doesn't have this problem.
On the contrary, manufacturers take most of this burden .. They release updated drivers .. I see every damn (small or big) company releasing updates and patches as soon as Windows comes with a new version ..

I only wish some of these companies supported Linux! (I still can't get all the necessary drivers for my tablet pc)



They say OSS is a greater threat than google but google is a threat.
Google represents the shifting of computing away from the desktop (where windows temporarily holds sway) and towards the internet. In addition, you have cross platform browsers like firefox taking off and limiting microsoft's influence in that arena. It will become increasingly difficult to push Windows/IE specific technologies on the internet when adopters would risk alienating a large portion of the web browsing public. (Silverlight can kiss my ...)

IMO, despite its appearance of invincibility, Microsoft is operating under a significant number of constraints. It's only a matter of time before this become more obvious. In mt view, Microsoft's heyday has passed. I think Bill Gates knew this too, as does Ozzie, his replacement.

True tht it has a lot of constraints but its gonna reap a lot more hay .. Microsoft has its own concentrations: the corporate business space, desktop space .. it lacks by far in the internet space .. but the first two are pretty strong .. it wud take a lotta time for it to lose the lead in market share
The shifting of computing away from the desktop is a very far goal IMO .. every company is now stressing on moving to Ultra mobile PCs and smart phones ..

Canis familiaris
June 25th, 2008, 10:18 AM
I'd say ur imagination is very far from reality .. It's not that simple .. Windows has layers too .. Have you even looked at the Windows source?



What? Where can I get Windows source? Can I get it now? It would be great for the WINE project? I want it NOW NOW NOW NOW!

kernelhaxor
June 25th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Whether they acknowledge or not, it doesnt make a difference to me..
I know Ubuntu has been a threat since long .. and is only getting bigger .. Go UBUNTU!!

Tomatz
June 25th, 2008, 10:20 AM
:confused: Read my previous post, they won't survive doing that

It depends wether they innovate or stagnate.

This is what Microsoft want in every home in 5 years time. You may laugh but i bet others did when bill gates said he wanted a PC in every home in America back in the 80s.

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/index.html

Waistless
June 25th, 2008, 10:22 AM
Yes, they will suffer terribly if they try to copy Apple but they'll still be successful because the world is full of people who just take to them and love them whatsover.


That's mostly due to the OEM love given to them by Dell, HP, Toshiba etc. (most of those redneck comments come from people who wouldn't know what a computer does inside)

And look at the examples Dell and Asus have been giving recently. While most of it's due to the success of OSS, the debacle of Vista and the strain these OEM providers would have had with tech support, I don't exactly think they'll be pleased with MS right now. :popcorn:

kernelhaxor
June 25th, 2008, 10:24 AM
What? Where can I get Windows source? Can I get it now? It would be great for the WINE project? I want it NOW NOW NOW NOW!



LOL did I say its publicly available .. me being a University student, its available to a select group of CS students as part of a course (OS course where you study the architecture, implementation details et al)

frup
June 25th, 2008, 10:25 AM
What? Where can I get Windows source? Can I get it now? It would be great for the WINE project? I want it NOW NOW NOW NOW!



I do believe parts of it can be examined in universities etc.

Canis familiaris
June 25th, 2008, 10:26 AM
LOL did I say its publicly available .. me being a University student, its available to a select group of CS students as part of a course (OS course where you study the architecture, implementation details et al)

But you surely do not get the CODE! You only learn about Windows underlying architecture.
Also Windows is not modular as you suggested. The modularity it has is because it uses a Hybrid kernel. But he components of the OS are far to tightly integrated.
Look at IE. It cannot even be completely uninstalled from Windows.

kernelhaxor
June 25th, 2008, 10:28 AM
That's mostly due to the OEM love given to them by Dell, HP, Toshiba etc. (most of those redneck comments come from people who wouldn't know what a computer does inside)

And look at the examples Dell and Asus have been giving recently. While most of it's due to the success of OSS, the debacle of Vista and the strain these OEM providers would have had with tech support, I don't exactly think they'll be pleased with MS right now. :popcorn:

True!
Nice to see both Dell and Asus embrace more and more open source technologies .. now that Dell ships ubuntu laptops and desktops, I love Dell!

Canis familiaris
June 25th, 2008, 10:29 AM
I do believe parts of it can be examined in universities etc.
But surely they have to sign a Non Disclosure Agreement?

kernelhaxor
June 25th, 2008, 10:42 AM
But surely they have to sign a Non Disclosure Agreement?

To clarify, yes the actual source is available (not complete windows, but the complete kernel and some other stuff I think) .. being one of the top ten schools for CS, a lot of MS research happens here and MS heavily funds the dept .. so its closely affiliated to MS .. and hence makes it available ..

heck I have 4 copies of Vista I got for free (but since I use ubuntu, not much value to me)

This discussion is of no value and is not the topic of the thread ! can we move on please ?

frup
June 25th, 2008, 11:02 AM
In some ways Microsoft's biggest threat is itself. You can look at that from multiple angles, eg Vista vs XP or their inability to change and innovate. Their monopoly has really hurt their branding, but just like people keep eating MacDonald's, people will always use MS.

I don't care what the competition is to MS, I'd prefer it to be OSS and Linux currently is the best chance for that. I think 20% apple, 10-15% Linux and the rest Microsoft with those small percentage points being actively fought for by the companies involved would be a very interesting dynamic. We would see a better MS, a better Mac and a better Linux + more interoperability.

Methuselah
June 25th, 2008, 11:27 AM
I'd say ur imagination is very far from reality .. It's not that simple .. Windows has layers too .. Have you even looked at the Windows source?


Where did I say it didn't have layers?
My assertion is that open source development is more distributed and by that very nature projects are more likely to keep concerns well separated.
I'm pretty positive the various components of windows are more intertwined than with the case of the linux stack.
GDI/window management functions were embedded in the kernel in a way that never existed in linux.
The frickin web-browser browser is classified by MS as an operating system component.
Their contention during the anti-trust trials was that it couldn't be removed.
Can you imagine firefox being an essential part of the linux desktop?
The tighter coupling of components makes changing things a whole lot harder and development a whole lot more difficult.
The debacle called Vista development is proof of this.
I don't need the source to come to obvious conclusions.




On the contrary, manufacturers take most of this burden .. They release updated drivers .. I see every damn (small or big) company releasing updates and patches as soon as Windows comes with a new version ..

I only wish some of these companies supported Linux! (I still can't get all the necessary drivers for my tablet pc)


It's not that simple... :rolleyes:

Windows' interface to device drivers is a binary one and such an interface contract can't just be ignored if anything is to work. This is a further constraint on the operating system development.

Sometimes it has been necessary to break drivers as we are well too aware of with Vista. However, not all hardware drivers are updated by the manufacturer as you claim. There are cases where you'd have to buy new hardware if you upgrade because the device manufacturer is no longer supporting it. On the other hand, a kernel upgrade should never break an open source driver.

The things is, support for legacy systems is a selling point for windows.
Unfortunately, it also puts design constraints on microsoft and has implications for efficiency/resource usage.




True tht it has a lot of constraints but its gonna reap a lot more hay .. Microsoft has its own concentrations: the corporate business space, desktop space .. it lacks by far in the internet space .. but the first two are pretty strong .. it wud take a lotta time for it to lose the lead in market share
The shifting of computing away from the desktop is a very far goal IMO .. every company is now stressing on moving to Ultra mobile PCs and smart phones ..

I never said Microsoft would be history tomorrow.
Most people look at things short-term but I'm taking long-term trends.
Microsoft is not growing out of its core business and that is being threatened by changing trends, rapidly improving competitors, and the sustainability of its development model.
The company is only left to gradually decline.
Case in point: in a world trending towards the portable and the nano, MS has released a bloated OS that can barely run on machines considered high end 6 months before its release.
If they really force out XP, who is going to be putting that on tiny portable computers?

MS on its current track is a smoldering volcano, gradually cooling.
Mark my words.

Waistless
June 25th, 2008, 12:33 PM
support for legacy systems is a selling point for windows.
Unfortunately, it also puts design constraints on microsoft and has implications for efficiency/resource usage.

It is a selling point, but efficiency != a design constraint, there's nothing to say you can't have both design and effeciency. Microsoft's prediciment is a result of having screwed up priorities.

joninkrakow
June 25th, 2008, 12:39 PM
And what about the recent Yahoo takeover fiasco? I dunno. I suspect that this statement may be more along the lines of damage control from the failed takeover. Is it an admission? Yes, of sorts.... But if it's in comparison to Google/Yahoo, I suspect it may be received more as a downplaying of the significance of their failed takeover of Yahoo... Of course, it's like the first step in a recovery program. ;-)

-Jon

Methuselah
June 25th, 2008, 12:44 PM
It is a selling point, but efficiency != a design constraint, there's nothing to say you can't have both design and effeciency. Microsoft's prediciment is a result of having screwed up priorities.


No, I didn't mean efficiency is a design constraint.
I meant that the bringing along of legacy APIs can lead to inefficiences.

Cybe R. Wizard
June 25th, 2008, 12:52 PM
Unless they drop their OS entirely and start building the Windows Window manager to run atop Linux.

Waistless
June 25th, 2008, 01:20 PM
I meant that the bringing along of legacy APIs can lead to inefficiences.

Oh legacy software you mean, my mistake, that's a different story. Yes that part of Vista was essential to be done, but poorly implemented. I've always thought the best way to do that would be to support legacy APIs in Vista, but automatically detect what's running these legacy APIs, bug the s**t out of the manufacturer's that are using them, and remove them in a later service pack. Certainly much better migration-wise.

With Hardware-compatibility however, I believe there is simply no excuse for elevating the system requirements of a base OS anymore. Software should be getting faster, not slower.

Chame_Wizard
June 25th, 2008, 04:09 PM
Now they know that OSS is not to take slightly=D> :guitar:

citizenchris099
June 25th, 2008, 06:16 PM
MS has been "concirned" w/oss and or aware of it as a "thread" for quite some time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

Midwest-Linux
June 25th, 2008, 09:15 PM
It is a compliment that MSFT thinks of Open Source as a threat. Yes that also means Linux is really that good. Great argument to use when one is defending Windows.

Linux is a big threat to MSFT. Despite on being so hell bent on getting rid of XP, MSFT decided to extend XP Home for the tiny laptop/pc market. They did this because Linux started to make a huge splash in that market segment. Also to "encourage" tiny laptop OEMS to put Windows on these computers, MSFT lowered the price of XP to as little as $16 just so Linux would not have that market to themselves. So yes indeed open source is a big threat to Microsoft.

xuCGC002
June 25th, 2008, 09:28 PM
And these people are so IGNORANT, as I can quote some of the real life people

Let's see what i've heard:

Linux Sucks because no one knows about it. It was probably made by some idiot in his mom's basement.


Firefox Isn't as good as IE6 because firefox can get viruses and IE6 can't!


Vista is better because Linux doesn't have as good a program as aero glass

It's just sad.

L815
June 25th, 2008, 09:51 PM
Let's see what i've heard:






It's just sad.


lol

Canis familiaris
June 25th, 2008, 09:57 PM
Let's see what i've heard:


It's just sad.

It is not only sad but pathetic as well.

FranMichaels
June 25th, 2008, 10:03 PM
Let's see what i've heard:




Linux Sucks because no one knows about it. It was probably made by some idiot in his mom's basement.


Firefox Isn't as good as IE6 because firefox can get viruses and IE6 can't!


Vista is better because Linux doesn't have as good a program as aero glass


It's just sad.

Indeed... However, though I'm a Free software advocate, let those people who said those things continue to use Windows. They deserve it. *cue maniacal laughter* ;)