kubuntu and ubuntu; which is easier to use, most stable, better supported, etc.?

[Redrazor39]

I've tried kubuntu and ubuntu on my computer and like them both, but I've heard a lot of things about both. For one thing, ubuntu's interface is cluttered and annoying IMHO (Linus Torvalds agrees :D). Kubuntu is less stable. This is what I've heard, but I need more. What do you guys think? Which is most stable? Which is easiest to use? Which will I most likely have fewer problems with? Which one can I get faster answers for here on ubuntuforums.org or are both sufficient for getting good help for a total n00b?


Anything else you guys and gals want to add?

[cariboo907]

I was a KDE user for years, but now I find Gnome suits me better. I tried Kubuntu a couple of weeks ago and it seemed unfinished, almost like there isn't as much effort in making Kubuntu as stable as Ubuntu. Of course that's my personal opinion.

Jim

[mc4man]

Which is most stable? Which is easiest to use? Which will I most likely have fewer problems with? Which one can I get faster answers for here on ubuntuforums
The answer to the first 3 and most likely the fourth would be Ubuntu.
Kubuntu 8.04 is very interesting, and is cluttered with a ton of config options but isn't very well implemented in some areas atm.
for a total n00b
Also says Ubuntu

[ScaredNoob]

Kubuntu 8.04 with kde 4.1 is a waste of download in my opinion. Some options in the control panel are missing the administrator button, meaning you can view the options but can't change anything (I was trying to set up autologin) because you can't get the priveleges. In general, I started my linux venture with kubuntu but have found that a lot more TLC has been put into Ubuntu Hardy then Kubuntu Hardy (with KDE 4 or 3, I've tried both). Best feature by far in Ubuntu Hardy (I forget if it's in Kubuntu) is being able to graphically check/uncheck what startup services clog up your boot, (meaning bye bye bluetooth and cupsys for me). If you want a real quandary, give trial both Ubuntu and Xubuntu Hardy and you'll have a tougher decision to make. The decision is yours and yours alone.

[karellen]

Ubuntu, being a Gnome-centric distro
if you want a good KDE implementaion, try other distros - openSuse, Mandriva or Mepis

[lydmrtnyng]

for me i'll go for ubuntu... although im still a newbie.. i've been googling about that topic fro quite sometime and i was able to resolve to go on using ubuntu... :):)

[Redrazor39]

I see. I've been using ubuntu for a couple of months and I liked it, but I absolutely HATED the GNOME interface. I have a widescreen laptop and the two panels on top and bottom seems just stupid. Even with KDE, it uses the same number of pixels, but at least it's all in the same place (less mouse movement). I know I can customize my panels however I want, but then it never looks right.

KDE just looks beautiful, too. I just found it harder to figure out than GNOME, but maybe that's because I did all these upgrades and totally screwed my kubuntu installation before I actually explored it. Is KDE 4.05 stable? That's what I was checking out.

Also, are the compiz effects the same in KDE than in GNOME? I couldn't find my wobbly windows :)


I tried xubuntu but I really didn't like it. I'm looking for some Linux that is really impressive, like if I wanted to show off or something lol (I probably won't, but it's still a good feeling) and I'd REALLLLY prefer if it was part of ubuntu because then I can get help here. I'm not an advanced user, but I can usually find my way around a computer and I'm open to trying new things. My parents are, too, but not when it's about electronics. I always disliked this, so I try to learn as much as possible.

Basically from this thread I'm trying to decide if I should reinstall kubuntu and give it another go and get help here and have someone walk me through enabling all the cool stuff in KDE, or should I go for ubuntu hardy. I had gutsy installed before, but hardy seems great, minus a few problems people are getting. I had hardware problems in gutsy, but nothing major, and I'm hoping hardy and intrepid will fix some of those. Suspend doesn't work in any version of hardy for me :(



But also, what exactly is the philosophy behind the development of GNOME and the philosophy behind the development of KDE? I've been googling around but can't find anything in a nutshell. This will help me understand and choose the philosophy I agree with most.


Thanks for all your help!

[starcannon]

I keep gnomes in my linux garden :)

[Exsecrabilus]

Kubuntu is a waste of development time, Ubuntu needs to focus on GNOME.
When one spreads out all its energy among many things, it loses its power.

Many other distros use one environment and they excel at it.
Only if Ubuntu just let go of Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc.....

IMO, KDE looks so cluttered, the way everything looks so "polished" makes it look completely outdated and out of style.

[Redrazor39]

I see what you mean, but I don't like GNOME's interface. I like the idea of sticking to one thing and exceling at it, but then there are those people who can't stand GNOME (I can stand it; I just don't like it) and want the support and community of ubuntu. Thus, kubuntu/xubuntu/edubuntu is born.

[-gabe-noob-]

Kubuntu is a waste of development time, Ubuntu needs to focus on GNOME.
When one spreads out all its energy among many things, it loses its power.

Many other distros use one environment and they excel at it.
Only if Ubuntu just let go of Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc.....

IMO, KDE looks so cluttered, the way everything looks so "polished" makes it look completely outdated and out of style.

Really now? most distro's i've checked out use more then one DE/WM

But clearly you have examples such as Fedora... oh wait

[cardinals_fan]

Kubuntu != KDE

Kubuntu == Butchered and mangled KDE

[Redrazor39]

So what do you suggest I use, cardinals_fan? (not in a sarcastic tone)

[ScaredNoob]

I say you are already leaning towards kubuntu with kde 3 stable version. You will probably be happy with easy instructions to install ccsm (+ compiz/fusion) through add/remove and the control center in kubuntu kde 3 is full of options which you would have to edit text files in Gnome to see the same results. You know, if you are willing to mess around with your OS a little and not have the greatest support out there, you might want to give GOS Rocket E a try. It's based on Ubuntu Gutsy and uses the Mac OS-esque Enlightenment window manager. A lot of options that you can graphically set are rather progressive, but overall some critical options are buried or just aren't there. I was able to, rather easily, get GOS to look rather like a combination of KDE and OSX, with transparent toolbars, icon zooming (individual or wheel-like), adding icons for Google-Earth and websites like digg to quick-launch-style bar, and some other cool effects (im pretty sure you can do compiz/wobbly windows too). The support out there pales in comparison to (Gnome) Ubuntu, tho, and there are like 3 competing forces to become offical forum sites so you might have to do a lot of digging to get answers. Give it a whirl tho, it is certainly an OS that will impress others, but might be a pain to live with if you are super serious about customization/community support. Back in the day when my laptop was taking about 5 min to boot Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu Gutsy (I later found out the quiet-boot option in grub was causing a lot of agony) GOS saved the day with a hecka quick boot time and a fun to play with user experience.

[Redrazor39]

What about openSUSE? I've heard a lot of good things about it. Is it easy to use, well supported, and can I get good support from their official forums and the openSUSE forums here?

[UniverseA7X]

openSUSE has always been a nice distro to me, but I could never get 1. My wireless working, or 2. Boot from the live cd. Maybe that's changed with 11 out now.

But I use Kubuntu, but I choose to get the software I want. Adept is really slow, so I usually get synaptic, but leave the adept updater. I cut Konqueror as the browser, and get Firefox. I don't know what email Client there is, but I get Thunderbird in place of that. I really enjoy the flexablility of KDE, the ablility to customize it to make it look really appealing to the eye, or to make it look like bright green baby poop.

For a first time user, KDE may not be the best choice, but once they are familiar with linux, then I'd say that they should try it out.

[Exsecrabilus]

openSUSE has always been a nice distro to me, but I could never get 1. My wireless working, or 2. Boot from the live cd. Maybe that's changed with 11 out now.
A double digit always promises success.

[cardinals_fan]

So what do you suggest I use, cardinals_fan? (not in a sarcastic tone)
OpenSUSE or SLAX.

[Redrazor39]

I'm downloading the live CD for KDE openSUSE. It looks pretty cool from what I've seen on the website. Does the live CD work like in Ubuntu, in which you can boot straight from that without installing in order to check it out and see how it works with your hardware?

[Redrazor39]

Also, is openSUSE 11 with KDE4 very stable? Will I get errors and crashes often? Can I come to the "Other OS Talk > openSUSE" part of the ubuntuforums to get help as well as the official forums?

How helpful are the people at the official openSUSE forums? Are they nearly as helpful or friendly to n00bs of openSUSE as the people here at ubuntuforums?

Is the terminal the same? Like are the commands the same? Does openSUSE get software from the same repos or is it completely different? If they are different, is it just as good as the ubuntu ones?

And finally (at least for this post), does openSUSE work well with dual boots? Is the installation as straightforward as ubuntu installation and will it recognize Vista just fine (ubuntu and kubuntu recognized it just fine)?

[cardinals_fan]

I'm downloading the live CD for KDE openSUSE. It looks pretty cool from what I've seen on the website. Does the live CD work like in Ubuntu, in which you can boot straight from that without installing in order to check it out and see how it works with your hardware?
Yes - it's a normal live CD.
Also, is openSUSE 11 with KDE4 very stable? Will I get errors and crashes often? Can I come to the "Other OS Talk > openSUSE" part of the ubuntuforums to get help as well as the official forums?

How helpful are the people at the official openSUSE forums? Are they nearly as helpful or friendly to n00bs of openSUSE as the people here at ubuntuforums?

Is the terminal the same? Like are the commands the same? Does openSUSE get software from the same repos or is it completely different? If they are different, is it just as good as the ubuntu ones?

And finally (at least for this post), does openSUSE work well with dual boots? Is the installation as straightforward as ubuntu installation and will it recognize Vista just fine (ubuntu and kubuntu recognized it just fine)?
1. I'm NOT a fan of KDE 4, but I will admit that openSUSE has a very usable implementation of it.

2. The openSUSE subforum here is just like any other distro subforum.

3. The official openSUSE forums are getting pretty good now that they've been unified.

4. Bash is Bash is Bash. The terminal will be identical.

5. OpenSUSE uses RPMs for package management, while Ubuntu uses DEBs. Both work fine.

6. The openSUSE installer does a good job at detecting other partitions.

[Redrazor39]

Thank you so much, cardinals_fan. So, the repos are going to be different? Or is it all the same software but in a different format?

[cardinals_fan]

Thank you so much, cardinals_fan. So, the repos are going to be different? Or is it all the same software but in a different format?
Different repos, different software. Most programs are available in RPM format though, and you could always compile from source (don't worry, almost everything has an RPM available).

[Redrazor39]

Ok, thanks. I'm going to try the openSUSE live CD now.

on to my real second Linux distro! yay!

[Redrazor39]

wait! also, will deleting and reinstalling partitions and OSs kill my hard drive? I don't want to do that!

[cardinals_fan]

wait! also, will deleting and reinstalling partitions and OSs kill my hard drive? I don't want to do that!
Not in my experience, and I've made a lot of partitions :)

[wolfen69]

So what do you suggest I use, cardinals_fan? (not in a sarcastic tone)

i know you didnt ask my opinion, but i suggest ubuntu for gnome, and mandriva for kde.

[Redrazor39]

Thanks for the input. Every little bit helps.


But I've checked out openSUSE and I installed it because openSUSE with KDE4 is just incredible. It's awesome, and the forums are much better than they used to be (from what I've heard).

I might check out mandriva some time though.

[piousp]

Personally, i feel that gnome is overrated in this forum, and, kde underrated. That can be translated into people supporint more Ubuntu than Kubuntu.
I will say however, there are more guides and howtos for Ubuntu than Kubuntu, so, for a total uber-noob, you may take that into consideration.

[Chame_Wizard]

Using Kubuntu myself ,i have nothing to complain(except kernel panic IMO:-k):lolflag:

[Canis familiaris]

I've tried kubuntu and ubuntu on my computer and like them both, but I've heard a lot of things about both. For one thing, ubuntu's interface is cluttered and annoying IMHO (Linus Torvalds agrees :D). Kubuntu is less stable. This is what I've heard, but I need more. What do you guys think? Which is most stable? Which is easiest to use? Which will I most likely have fewer problems with? Which one can I get faster answers for here on ubuntuforums.org or are both sufficient for getting good help for a total n00b?


Anything else you guys and gals want to add?

Out of Ubuntu and Kubuntu: Ubuntu is better
If you want KDE: PC Linux OS would be right for you

[Cup of Squirrels]

From my experience, I far prefer Ubuntu over Kubuntu.

I originally started with Ubuntu and later installed the kubuntu-desktop package along with the other kde software packages, but I really didn't like it: From initial startup it looked ugly, like a cheap copy of the already hideous default XP wrapping. I was overwhelmed by the amount of K prefixed programs and couldn't install any new themes for KDE for the life of me (Not to say GNOME is any better).

But ultimately both GNOME and KDE can do the same thing. Your best bet is to try both (trying over Linux distros is smart too) and see what works best for you. Some people prefer KDE, others prefer GNOME. It's personal preference, really.

[hellion0]

In my experience, Ubuntu (with Gnome, of course) has the easier learning curve. I find Kubuntu a little better integrated, though.

Of course, I prefer Xubuntu over both, so... :P

[Afkpuz]

My advice is to install ubuntu and leave some space on your hard drive unpartitioned. Then, use ubuntu for day to day things and start trying different distros on the 2nd partition. Saves alot of time and is easy to eliminate the partition when you finally find the one you like the best.

[Redrazor39]

My advice is to install ubuntu and leave some space on your hard drive unpartitioned. Then, use ubuntu for day to day things and start trying different distros on the 2nd partition. Saves alot of time and is easy to eliminate the partition when you finally find the one you like the best.

That sounds like a very good idea. I already have Vista on a partition (and I'm not getting rid of it until Vista is horribly obsolete, which it is now, essentially, but I still need it) and another partition of ~34GB. I'm using that for openSUSE right now. openSUSE really does KDE4 correctly.

I really want to try some more Linux distros but more than that I want to see if FreeBSD is any good. From all the stuff I've read, FreeBSD is built as one, not as a base with tons of add-ons.

I read in some blog that Linux is basically a very solid base with tons of add ons. Everything in Linux except the kernel is an add-on. In BSD, everything is designed to work together seamlessly and as one, not as separate parts.

That sounds REALLY good, although I like what Firefox has done with add ons :)



Tell me, is FreeBSD easy to set up and does it have a cool GUI? Is the CLI used as much as or more than that of Linux? Is there a good collection of software out there for BSD (I don't care how much, as long as there's something high quality for almost every task)?

[cardinals_fan]

I really want to try some more Linux distros but more than that I want to see if FreeBSD is any good. From all the stuff I've read, FreeBSD is built as one, not as a base with tons of add-ons.

I read in some blog that Linux is basically a very solid base with tons of add ons. Everything in Linux except the kernel is an add-on. In BSD, everything is designed to work together seamlessly and as one, not as separate parts.

That sounds REALLY good, although I like what Firefox has done with add ons :)

Tell me, is FreeBSD easy to set up and does it have a cool GUI? Is the CLI used as much as or more than that of Linux? Is there a good collection of software out there for BSD (I don't care how much, as long as there's something high quality for almost every task)?
I think you misunderstand FreeBSD. When you hear that it is put together as one cohesive whole rather than a bunch of fragments, that refers to the core system, not the GUI (which, BTW, isn't included by default). Generally, it's a good idea to read up before installing an OS. It doesn't sound like you have. Here is THE FreeBSD resource:

The FreeBSD Handbook (http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/). This is a simply superb guide to everything FreeBSD. Read it and learn.

FreeBSD is a good OS and a great learning experience. But be aware that you'll be building up from a command-line base (much like the Arch or Gentoo Linux distros. If you want a pre-built GUI, consider DesktopBSD (http://www.desktopbsd.net/) or PC-BSD (http://www.pcbsd.org/). They're both based off FreeBSD and GUIified for newbies.

If you're willing to learn, give FreeBSD a try! You could also consider NetBSD (which I consider the best OS), but it doesn't get very good hardware or software support. FreeBSD has almost any software you could want.

BTW, one OS that includes ALL of its components as a united whole (including a GUI and apps) is Haiku. Unfortunately, hardware support is awful and it runs very few apps, but Haiku is still really cool and well worth a virtual machine.

[doorknob60]

I like KDE better than Gnome (for pretty much the same reasons as Linus Torvalds), but Ubuntu's implementaton of KDE (Kubuntu) isn't as good as other distros. Debian does a great job of it, although Kubuntu is still good, just it needs a littlee work before it's as stable as Ubuntu.

[Redrazor39]

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

I've been googling around for days trying to read up on FreeBSD and really understand it. This is just what I needed!

Arch Linux scared me away with it's horribly long and manual installation process, but now as long as I know what to do I'll be fine.

All I need is to either find peripherals for our old computer or wait until my dad scraps his old VAIO (I'll take it and experiment with the 200GB of HDD space he never used o_O)

Is it easy to dual boot with FreeBSD or any BSD? Does it set up a dual boot itself or do you have to allocate free space and then tell it to go there? Will it recognize that free space?

[cardinals_fan]

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

I've been googling around for days trying to read up on FreeBSD and really understand it. This is just what I needed!

Arch Linux scared me away with it's horribly long and manual installation process, but now as long as I know what to do I'll be fine.

All I need is to either find peripherals for our old computer or wait until my dad scraps his old VAIO (I'll take it and experiment with the 200GB of HDD space he never used o_O)

Is it easy to dual boot with FreeBSD or any BSD? Does it set up a dual boot itself or do you have to allocate free space and then tell it to go there? Will it recognize that free space?
Arch is really quite easy. Pacman does the work for you. You'll be glad to know that the Beginner's Guide is now included on the install CD. Just runcat /arch/beginnersguide.txt | less to read it.

FreeBSD does a decent job with partitions, but there are two things to remember:

1) It's a curses-based installer. This doesn't make it hard (I find most curses installers easier than traditional GUI ones), but don't expect a pretty and colorful GParted to help you.

2) FreeBSD uses UFS for its file system (ZFS is being ported, but for now, only use that if you like bugs). Not all partitioning apps can handle UFS.

[Greyed]

Of the two I prefer KUbuntu because it is KDE. Less clutter, no areas of the screen wasted on items I don't want (Yeah, top bar, I'm looking at you, Mac clone wannabe space waster), easier configuration and integration as well as some killer apps (Amarok, worth the price of admission alone).

Furthermore if things go sour on your graphics configuration, like it did on mind, you'll quickly find that Ubuntu is unusable because anything below 800x600 and you can't access the entire dialog box. Oh, and no scroll bars. KDE, no problem. For the record if your X config gets toasted it starts up in 640x480. All the Ubuntu "Apply" or "Ok" buttons were around the 540 area. Sad.

Finally Gnome itself just feels counter-intuitive. It has some nice features, sure, but by and large I am constantly frustrated by the interface when it is working.

With that said 2 caveats. When I speak of KDE I mean KDE 3.5.9 and not 4.0.1. 4.0.1 is rubbish, pure and simple. Secondly even though I don't like Gnome I think the background for Hardy Heron that ships with Ubuntu. That's honestly the first default background for an OS in my almost 30 years of OSes that I would keep.

Finally, why make separate partitions to try other OSes? VirtualBox is an aptitude install away and it's far easier to make an 8Gb image on the dist to give an OS a whirl than to expand and contract partitions and file systems. Far less dangerous, too. ;)

[zarquad]

KDE 4.1 is amazing, Get New Stuff is wonderful, the interface is simple and powerful. Compiz is unnecessary (unless you need the cube, but theres work being done on that feature). Kubuntu hasn't done loads of work integrating KDE4, but mostly it is because it uses vanilla KDE4, while Open SUSE uses a more polished SUSE-centric KDE4. Hopefully Intrepid will integrate KDE4 better as it will be the default.

KDE4 is incredibly stable unless you are using the betas (dur) or an nvidia proprietary driver (nvidia drivers are known to have irksome 2D performance).

GNOME + Ubuntu is too brown. Oxygen icons are loads prettier than tango icons.

[Greyed]

the interface is simple and powerful.


Simple and limited. Feels like I'm on a "My First Computer" by Hasbro. :(

[Redrazor39]

I'm using openSUSE and i love it. Kubuntu mangles KDE4 so bad it's irritating. I had no idea there were so many cool features in KDE4.

Now I'm waiting for KOffice 2. I've heard some great things about that and I love KOffice's interface much more than that of OOo, so I'm totally switching when 2.0 comes out.

[timzak]

I've heard it said you can tweak Kubuntu to look like Ubuntu and vice versa. Since you seem to like the visuals of Kubuntu, but not some of the underlying incompleteness, you might be better off tring Ubuntu again, and just slowly play with changing the appearance to look more like KDE.

Personally, I dislike the double-wide single panel in Kubuntu (it gives the appearance of being simplified for a child, aka Playskool panel) and prefer either a single slim panel in Ubuntu, or top and bottom slim panels. However, the look of the double-wide panel contrasts sharply with the confusing plethora of configuration options. It's like it was designed for a genius inside a child's body. Just my opinion, though! Like I said, it can be tweaked to look like Gnome or anything else, if that's your cup of tea.

As for which is better supported...hands down Ubuntu over Kubuntu.

I see. I've been using ubuntu for a couple of months and I liked it, but I absolutely HATED the GNOME interface. I have a widescreen laptop and the two panels on top and bottom seems just stupid. Even with KDE, it uses the same number of pixels, but at least it's all in the same place (less mouse movement). I know I can customize my panels however I want, but then it never looks right.

KDE just looks beautiful, too. I just found it harder to figure out than GNOME, but maybe that's because I did all these upgrades and totally screwed my kubuntu installation before I actually explored it. Is KDE 4.05 stable? That's what I was checking out.

Also, are the compiz effects the same in KDE than in GNOME? I couldn't find my wobbly windows :)


I tried xubuntu but I really didn't like it. I'm looking for some Linux that is really impressive, like if I wanted to show off or something lol (I probably won't, but it's still a good feeling) and I'd REALLLLY prefer if it was part of ubuntu because then I can get help here. I'm not an advanced user, but I can usually find my way around a computer and I'm open to trying new things. My parents are, too, but not when it's about electronics. I always disliked this, so I try to learn as much as possible.

Basically from this thread I'm trying to decide if I should reinstall kubuntu and give it another go and get help here and have someone walk me through enabling all the cool stuff in KDE, or should I go for ubuntu hardy. I had gutsy installed before, but hardy seems great, minus a few problems people are getting. I had hardware problems in gutsy, but nothing major, and I'm hoping hardy and intrepid will fix some of those. Suspend doesn't work in any version of hardy for me :(



But also, what exactly is the philosophy behind the development of GNOME and the philosophy behind the development of KDE? I've been googling around but can't find anything in a nutshell. This will help me understand and choose the philosophy I agree with most.


Thanks for all your help!

[Redrazor39]

Like I said, no matter how much I try to customize it, it never looks right. I think openSUSE and oxygen nailed down the gray tint for window backgrounds (I HATE that win2k style gray in ubuntu) and oxygen icons just seem balanced and done right.

Checking out openSUSE right now and it seems pretty cool. I once read that Xandros is a good linux for people coming from XP with no linux experience, and ubuntu is for people with more computer experience (I skipped to ubuntu) and openSUSE is for power users. I'm not a huge power user, but openSUSE really nailed the look.

[Greyed]

Personally, I dislike the double-wide single panel in Kubuntu (it gives the appearance of being simplified for a child, aka Playskool panel) and prefer either a single slim panel in Ubuntu, or top and bottom slim panels.

So... do that. The kicker panel can be configured to be as slim or fat as you want. You can also add another one to the top, or sides, of the screen if you so choose. Those are insanely trivial changes. Personally I like the doublewide bar so I can see more programs on the bar at once. It also gives usable space for applets to display what they're doing.

BTW, seriously, top-posting is bad enough in email. We really don't need it in forums.

[timzak]

So... do that. The kicker panel can be configured to be as slim or fat as you want. You can also add another one to the top, or sides, of the screen if you so choose. Those are insanely trivial changes. Personally I like the doublewide bar so I can see more programs on the bar at once. It also gives usable space for applets to display what they're doing.

BTW, seriously, top-posting is bad enough in email. We really don't need it in forums.

I'm glad you're happy with the doublewide bar. That's the beauty of having so many options...but it also leads to many opinions. The bottom line is we all win. That was the point I was trying to make. I also made the point of how highly configurable both distros are, so I am aware that I can change the doublewide bar. But the OP was complaining about the default look of Ubuntu, so, like others did in this thread before me, I was commenting on my opinion of the default look of Kubuntu.

I didn't realize people were so passionate about top-posting. :confused:

[mdsmedia]

So... do that. The kicker panel can be configured to be as slim or fat as you want. You can also add another one to the top, or sides, of the screen if you so choose. Those are insanely trivial changes. Personally I like the doublewide bar so I can see more programs on the bar at once. It also gives usable space for applets to display what they're doing.

BTW, seriously, top-posting is bad enough in email. We really don't need it in forums.While I was a little offput (ie. I read the quote second, after the reply) by the top post in the earlier response, I prefer top posting in emails. You can read the reply without having to wade through the quote first. In emails you can just click on the next email when you're ready. If you bottom post (after the replied-to email) your reader has to scroll to the bottom to read your response. This can be a pain where there are many replies or backwards and forwards responses.

[Greyed]

While I was a little offput (ie. I read the quote second, after the reply) by the top post in the earlier response, I prefer top posting in emails. You can read the reply without having to wade through the quote first. In emails you can just click on the next email when you're ready. If you bottom post (after the replied-to email) your reader has to scroll to the bottom to read your response. This can be a pain where there are many replies or backwards and forwards responses.

No, bad. Both are bad. Top posting is bad because you end up with 20-30 messages trailing the current one and just wasting more and more space. Nothing like 40k of text to say "Yes, that's a good idea, let's do it!" Furthermore if I don't recall what I proposed as a good idea I have to scroll down to read it then scrooooollll back to continue reading.

Bottom posting is bad for the same reason in reverse.

The proper way to quote, in email and forums, is to quote relevant passages and trim the rest out. Interleave your responses with the quotes. This gives context to what you are saying and keeps each individual message
small. Don't believe me?

http://www.google.com/search?q=top+posting+is+bad&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Pick a link, any link, they go into great detail.

[Redrazor39]

This is why you use Gmail's conversation view ;-)

[Greyed]

This is why you use Gmail's conversation view ;-)


That would require subjecting myself to GMail's horrible email paradigm.

[Redrazor39]

What "horrible" paradigm?

[doorknob60]

I'm using openSUSE and i love it. Kubuntu mangles KDE4 so bad it's irritating. I had no idea there were so many cool features in KDE4.

Yeah, until I tried the OpenSuse Live CD, I hated KDE 4. (I tried it back in like January lol). It's really nice, but rpm distros a foreign to me, I wanted to stick to a Debian based (like Debian of course), so I'll wait till KDE 4 hits Testing.

[Greyed]

What "horrible" paradigm?

From what I recall they ignore the IN-REPLY-TO header. Last time I checked it was neigh unto impossible to actually delete messages. They have problems with how they reject spam in that they accept and do not notify the end user they're dropping a message. Either 550 it at SMTP time or notify their user. Accept and drop is not, well, acceptable. The notion of searching and tagging is getting a tad annoying. I don't tag things so searching on tags is useless. I filter as the mail comes in, not retroactively, thanks.

[cardinals_fan]

From what I recall they ignore the IN-REPLY-TO header. Last time I checked it was neigh unto impossible to actually delete messages. They have problems with how they reject spam in that they accept and do not notify the end user they're dropping a message. Either 550 it at SMTP time or notify their user. Accept and drop is not, well, acceptable. The notion of searching and tagging is getting a tad annoying. I don't tag things so searching on tags is useless. I filter as the mail comes in, not retroactively, thanks.
The tags are meant to be applied with a filter as the messages enter the inbox.

[Greyed]

Then why tag when one can just filter into a folder? Just seems like they decided to take 20 years of built up, established, well oiled email habits and chuck it all to take 3 steps backwards. *shrug*