give ubuntu a break

[sweeneytodd]

to all the frustrated ubuntu users including myself, if your problems don't get answered straight away don't insult everyone else, the system,support and software are free. maybe its just not 24 hour 7 days a week support, deal with it, i'm sure the ubuntu team are off their feet as they have just released a new version and you're relying on the general public to give a hand, if this isn't the case. still, deal with it, if you paid for everything then maybe you can complain, but u didn't, so generally you can solve problems with a bit of research in the forums, or net, so use these forums as a tool, not a be all and end all sort of thing

[SyL]

You get the point dude!

[Joeb454]

+1 to the first post, and also, if you want official support, you can buy it from Canonical (I'm unsure of the fee).

[RWells]

I would I agree with you IF, all of the marketing hype for linux and or Ubuntu was prefaced with a statement similar to what you said.

I was seduced into trying Linux becuase every one says.
Its better.
It has better harware suport, it just works.
Its easier.
Better documentation.
Better support.

I would be alot less frustrated If I had had been told.

Its better if you like messing with computers and compiling your own source code.

It has very little hardware support, but it is posible to get most evrything working if you spend enough time doing research.

Its alot harder harder because you have to learn every thing about the operating system and your hardware to get linux up and running and keep it running.

There is a lot of documentation, but it is scattered all over the internet and you will have to spend a lot of time searching for it and will become very intimate with Google.

There is no support, but there are a lot of Linux enthusiasts that are willing to help.

If you dont enjoy sitting in front of a computer for hours on end you probably wont like Linux.

[reyfer]

Its alot harder harder because you have to learn every thing about the operating system and your hardware to get linux up and running and keep it running.

Sorry, but my grandmother is using Kubuntu, and she did not have to learn that, so explain to me how is she using it? I CALL FUD

[Joeb454]

I would be alot less frustrated If I had had been told.

Its better if you like messing with computers and compiling your own source code.


I've never had to compile my own source code, I have chosen to however

It has very little hardware support, but it is posible to get most evrything working if you spend enough time doing research.

All my hardware works out the box, no tinkering, unlike Windows XP which recognised absolutely nothing when I reinstalled it. And you are correct about the 2nd part.

Its alot harder harder because you have to learn every thing about the operating system and your hardware to get linux up and running and keep it running.

Linux isn't Windows, this much should be pretty obvious. And I don't know everything about Linux - my laptop runs flawlessly, and my server has been up and running for 16 days straight now.

There is a lot of documentation, but it is scattered all over the internet and you will have to spend a lot of time searching for it and will become very intimate with Google.

Did you ever search the Ubuntu Documentation (https://help.ubuntu.com/) and the Community Documentation (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/)

There is no support, but there are a lot of Linux enthusiasts that are willing to help.

And how is this worse than the Microsoft support? Seriously...have you ever tried to get support from them? It's like trying to squeeze fresh orange juice from a bone dry rock.

If you dont enjoy sitting in front of a computer for hours on end you probably wont like Linux.

You don't have to sit in front of your PC for hours on end - that's your choice

[RWells]

Sorry, but my grandmother is using Kubuntu, and she did not have to learn that, so explain to me how is she using it? I CALL FUD

Ok I will bite, walk us through the procces she took.

How old is she, what does he do for a living, who installed it for her?

How did she find out about Kubuntu?

What does she use Kubuntu for?

What hardware is she using that has perfect driver support?

What is FUD?

[lostlinuxkiwi]

I never heard anyone say it would be easier, and I never expected it to just work although for the most part it did. I do agree that it is better if you like messing about with computers, I don't think i would recommend any Linux to somebody who didn't. Fortunately I do. I only just moved to ubuntu after years of intending to try a linux distro. I wish I had earlier. Ubuntu has whet my appitite. Also I think the community support for ubuntu is great.

[melrom]

And how is this worse than the Microsoft support? Seriously...have you ever tried to get support from them? It's like trying to squeeze fresh orange juice from a bone dry rock.


+1000

instantaneous support from "linux enthusiasts," as you call them, versus winblows support, waiting on the phone for an hour, listening to someone thumb through the pages of a manual, being put on hold a million times, only to arrive at the conclusion that they can't help you.


sorry, i, hmmm, don't have time to sit in front of my computer all day [whoddathunk!?], so i'll take the instantaneous help from people who actually care. thanks.

[lisati]

I wish to lend my support to all the supporters here. As has been observed, Ubuntu & Linux aren't Windows - and it is possible to find programs for Linux where you don't have to compile your own programs.

Sure, we're not always going to see eye-to-eye, differences of opinion are part of life and learning to cope with them with dignity and respect can lead the way to everyone being better off.

[Lod]

[Chris Crocker cry mode]Leave Ubuntu alone :sad:[/chris crocker cry mode]

[K.Mandla]

marketing hype
Can you still have marketing hype if it's available for free?

[billgoldberg]

Just because something doesn't work for you out of the box doesn't mean it's that way with everyone.

I've installed ubuntu on 4 pc's now (2 of my own, 2 of friends) and never had any hardware issues.

If you can't figure things out doesn't mean ubuntu is to blaim.

You have google and these forums (like windows users don't have to google their problems ...) and if you need professional support, you can. But you'll have to fork over money.

[hellion0]

I've installed Ubuntu on 2 machines, and ordered a third one with Ubuntu preinstalled. On one of the machines I installed it on (a Thinkpad 600), I encountered a ton of problems, mostly due to its antique tech.

Sometimes I can figure out exactly what the problem is when something does go wrong. Sometimes I can't, but I can find a solution online. Sometimes I end up having to post here. Even with having to wait, community support is sometimes better than the paid stuff... and the community support here is second to none. It doesn't cost money, though... it just takes patience. The "local" expert on what ails you may be halfway around the world, in the middle of sleeping. Same expert could be a kid having little time to help because of school and work/chores.

Patience is the ultimate virtue. Either way, it's not Ubuntu's fault. Maybe you have daft hardware. Maybe you encountered a buggy package in the last Synaptic update. Maybe you accidentally deleted an important config file. It takes time, but if you give it that, the support around here's second to none.

I know something about needing patience - I've been waiting a few days on some help with a FM tuner. I'm not about to rush it. When the help comes, it'll come.

...And since when is word of mouth "marketing hype?"

[RWells]

I've never had to compile my own source code, I have chosen to however.

I am confused here? did you choose to compile your own source code because you like to or because you dont like to?

Like I said it is better if.... you like compiling your own source code.



All my hardware works out the box, no tinkering, unlike Windows XP which recognised absolutely nothing when I reinstalled it. And you are correct about the 2nd part.

You would do us all a favor if you would share what hardware works perfect with no tinkering.

I wont even comment on XP not recognizing your any of your hardware, I would have to say that would be a damn frustrating experience.

Not even the CDROM, or harddrive?



Linux isn't Windows, this much should be pretty obvious. And I don't know everything about Linux - my laptop runs flawlessly, and my server has been up and running for 16 days straight now.

Linux isnt windows? what does that mean? Are you saying Linux should not be considered as a direct replacment for Windows?

If you are running a server You know a lot more than the average user!



Did you ever search the Ubuntu Documentation (https://help.ubuntu.com/) and the Community Documentation (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/)
Yes, have you? do you consider it complete?



And how is this worse than the Microsoft support? Seriously...have you ever tried to get support from them? It's like trying to squeeze fresh orange juice from a bone dry rock.

Windows acctivation suxs, reactivating a already activated legal copy of windows suxs the big one!

Other than that I have never needed support from windows.

And didnt say it is worse than windows.
I said there isnt any support.



You don't have to sit in front of your PC for hours on end - that's your choice

Yes my choice 100% and if I dont want to, Linux isnt a good choice for me!

[RWells]

+1000

instantaneous support from "linux enthusiasts," as you call them, versus winblows support, waiting on the phone for an hour, listening to someone thumb through the pages of a manual, being put on hold a million times, only to arrive at the conclusion that they can't help you.


sorry, i, hmmm, don't have time to sit in front of my computer all day [whoddathunk!?], so i'll take the instantaneous help from people who actually care. thanks.

When My computer dont work I drop it of at the store I purchased it from and they fix it while I am at work.

[Joeb454]

1) Yes I compiled my own source code, because I wanted to do it. I found it really wasn't that difficult.

2) Intel Core 2 Duo T5300, Intel 4965ABG Wireless & Gigabit Ethernet, Intel Graphics (cannot remember which model specifically), I believe the last 2 are the most awkward things. As for XP - it didn't recognise any network interface, or my graphics, which proved to be a slight issue at the time, as I had no internet connection so I couldn't get the drivers.

3) I was referring to this: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
Also that Linux is different from Windows, it works differently. Just like Mac OS X is different from Windows - that works differently too.

4) It's pretty complete from what I've seen

5) There is actually support, please see this page: http://www.ubuntu.com/support

6) I've always gone by the statement - Use what works for you, if Windows works better for you than Linux does, use Windows. But there's no point going around and bashing each OS really, not in my opinion anyway

[RWells]

...And since when is word of mouth "marketing hype?"


Have you ever been to Ubuntu.com?

Here is a qoute form there

"About Ubuntu

Ubuntu is a community developed, Linux-based operating system that is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers. It contains all the applications you need - a web browser, presentation, document and spreadsheet software, instant messaging and much more. "

Do you really consider Ubuntu perfect?
Doesit really contain all the applications you need?

[quinnten83]

I would I agree with you IF, all of the marketing hype for linux and or Ubuntu was prefaced with a statement similar to what you said.

I was seduced into trying Linux becuase every one says.
Its better.
It has better harware suport, it just works.
Its easier.
Better documentation.
Better support.

I would be alot less frustrated If I had had been told.

Its better if you like messing with computers and compiling your own source code.

It has very little hardware support, but it is posible to get most evrything working if you spend enough time doing research.

Its alot harder harder because you have to learn every thing about the operating system and your hardware to get linux up and running and keep it running.

There is a lot of documentation, but it is scattered all over the internet and you will have to spend a lot of time searching for it and will become very intimate with Google.

There is no support, but there are a lot of Linux enthusiasts that are willing to help.

If you dont enjoy sitting in front of a computer for hours on end you probably wont like Linux.

wasn't there something on the website where you downloaded about it being free software and if you break it, you get to keep both pieces?
Did you read that or did you just type yes like you do with the EULA in windows?

[quinnten83]

OMG, LEAVE UBUNTU ALONE......
What is wrong with you people???

[melrom]

I'm curious as to what exactly linux doesn't have that you need it to have. You keep telling people that consider themselves not quite linux saavy that they know more than the "average user." I find Ubuntu, in particular, to be exceptionally intuitive. My parents would have no problem navigating around, using the "average user" programs...

-MelRom

[melrom]

And you either pay for now or paid for when purchasing that service that you can just "drop off your computer" at the store. Ubuntu is /free/.

[RWells]

1) Yes I compiled my own source code, because I wanted to do it. I found it really wasn't that difficult.

2) Intel Core 2 Duo T5300, Intel 4965ABG Wireless & Gigabit Ethernet, Intel Graphics (cannot remember which model specifically), I believe the last 2 are the most awkward things. As for XP - it didn't recognise any network interface, or my graphics, which proved to be a slight issue at the time, as I had no internet connection so I couldn't get the drivers.

3) I was referring to this: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
Also that Linux is different from Windows, it works differently. Just like Mac OS X is different from Windows - that works differently too.

4) It's pretty complete from what I've seen

5) There is actually support, please see this page: http://www.ubuntu.com/support

6) I've always gone by the statement - Use what works for you, if Windows works better for you than Linux does, use Windows. But there's no point going around and bashing each OS really, not in my opinion anyway

My whole point!

If Linux/Ubuntu was prestented to noobies the way you just said it it would be less frustrating, rather than all the. its perferct, it recognizes all hardware, never crashes, so easy my grandmother can use it crap.

I hope you realize I havnt bashed any OS, If I do it will be windows.
I have only commented on why I think alot of the Noobs get so frustrated.

When we have posts like this

Sorry, but my grandmother is using Kubuntu, and she did not have to learn that, so explain to me how is she using it? I CALL FUD


Its pretty obvious I am pretty stupid if reyfers grandmother can do it with out learning anything, and Ubuntu crashes for me every time it updates.

[jviscosi]

Do you really consider Ubuntu perfect?

This is a straw man question; you're suggesting we should take puffery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery) literally. Of course Ubuntu is not perfect; nothing created by mere mortals is. But IMHO it's a heck of a lot better than Windows. To quote Grace Jones: "I'm not perfect ... but I'm perfect for you."

Does it really contain all the applications you need?

Almost. I bought a TurboPrint driver for my Canon i950 printer (a carryover from my Windows days) and I recently bought JungleDisk. Those are the only two software programs I've purchased since switching to Linux in 2004. I've also downloaded and compiled a number of programs (mostly dockapps and off-the-wall utilities) outside the package manager, but I didn't need them; I just wanted them. ;-)

[popch]

Its pretty obvious I am pretty stupid if reyfers grandmother can do it with out learning anything, and Ubuntu crashes for me every time it updates.

It might come as a surprise to you, but there are some computers on which Ubuntu (such to name an example) runs perfectly well on the first trial. You just boot the CD, install after checking that the live CD works as expected, and about half an hour or an hour later you have a perfectly running system.

Then, there are other computers which take quite some fiddling and some research. If you happen to have one of those, then you're out of luck if you don't like fiddling with computers.

If you have one of those where Ubuntu runs as described above, many a grandmother can use it without any problems at all.

[Swarms]

Rwells you seem quite misinformed, Ubuntu supports more hardware than Windows XP or Vista OOB, and like you said you can almost always find a fix on the web. Steer around exotic hardware in the future and you will never have problems again.
I myself never had to compile a kernel, and never found a reason for why. And I use Ubuntu for the daily stuff like writing in OpenOffice, surfing the web, playing games (wine and natives), listening to music and watching movies.

But yeah if you don't find it a good OS for your needs, try something else, its your choice. :)

[RWells]

I'm curious as to what exactly linux doesn't have that you need it to have. You keep telling people that consider themselves not quite linux saavy that they know more than the "average user." I find Ubuntu, in particular, to be exceptionally intuitive. My parents would have no problem navigating around, using the "average user" programs...

-MelRom
The average user takes their computer back to the store or a repair facility when it doesnt work.

My parents wouldnt have any problem navigating around either, after it was installed. But my 80 year old mother doesnt know what an ISO is or checksum, or bittorent, or grub menu, or nvidia driver.

I use Realflight G3.5,and Photoshop

[melrom]

If Linux/Ubuntu was prestented to noobies the way you just said it it would be less frustrating, rather than all the. its perferct, it recognizes all hardware, never crashes, so easy my grandmother can use it crap.



It is probably perfect for the people you are talking to. I personally think it is superior to Windows in many, many ways. That said, part of the reason Windows is so wonky is that it aims itself at the broadest market possible, which often results in people wanting to tear their hair out [but this is besides the point].

I've never heard claims that it recognizes /all/ hardware. Did it recgonize all of my hardware? Yes, I happen to enjoy excellent compatiblity, but it was not always this way. Ubuntu continues to come a long way because of dedicated individuals coming together in the name of open source! :)

And I mean, while I get your point, Reyfer was simply saying that his grandmother does use it. I mean, it's just like I said that my parents use it. I'm just trying to say that I personally clump my parents into the "average user" if not "below average user" group and they enjoy linux and find it easy and intuitive.

[melrom]

The average user takes their computer back to the store or a repair facility when it doesnt work.


Not really. Most people I know call Tech Support.

-MelRom

[Barrucadu]

If you're willing to accept that it isn't Windows and learn the Ubuntu way of doing things, and if you're lucky enough to have fully supported hardware, Ubuntu is much easier to learn than Windows.
I never understand why people say Linux is difficult compared to Windows - how many years does it take the average person to learn to use Windows? Different is not necessarily difficult.

[RWells]

This is a straw man question; you're suggesting we should take puffery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery) literally. Of course Ubuntu is not perfect; nothing created by mere mortals is. But IMHO it's a heck of a lot better than Windows. To quote Grace Jones: "I'm not perfect ... but I'm perfect for you."

The point is, touting it as perfect is marketing hype.
It is somthing I would expect from MS,



Almost. I bought a TurboPrint driver for my Canon i950 printer (a carryover from my Windows days) and I recently bought JungleDisk. Those are the only two software programs I've purchased since switching to Linux in 2004. I've also downloaded and compiled a number of programs (mostly dockapps and off-the-wall utilities) outside the package manager, but I didn't need them; I just wanted them. ;-)[/QUOTE]

We dont really need personal computers,so I presume Ubuntu is making that statement from a commercial point of view.

[lswest]

I just wanted to say thanks to the OP, nice to know that some people can see stuff from our perspective. It gets very frustrating when you have frustrated users insult Ubuntu or the forums or just generally assume a tone that's not very pleasant. So thanks for not taking out your frustrations on us :)

[NovaAesa]

I kinda have to agree with RWells in a way. If people told me that Linux would be hard to get used to (and yes, some bits were pretty hard, this was back in the days of Dapper), I would have been far less frustrated.

It's a bit like injections for immunisations. People are going to be alot happier if you tell them it's going to hurt like hell rather than only being a pin-prick, even though it's for the good in the long run.

[RWells]

Not really. Most people I know call Tech Support.

-MelRom

Most people I know take a broken product back to the store they purchased it from.

[quinnten83]

Most people I know take a broken product back to the store they purchased it from.

The we can only hope you purchased Ubuntu :D
But seriously, I will not say that there isn't a learning curve. I will not even say that it isn't difficult, but is it really that much different than having windows hardware which will not work

I had an MSI wifi card that worked beautifully in linux (once i installed the damn broadcom drivers), but for the life of me, not connect to my friends SSID in windows. And that's where it stopped, because there was no way to fix it.
with linux at least I have the hope somebody has hacked into it and can show me how to work around the problem. But this is not something an average user does in windows or in linux. they just solve the issue by buying new hardware. Just like they buy a new computer when windows has become slow.

[caravel]

The best way to deal with angry complaints is to take a reasonable approach, if you lose it and be rude, and sometimes it's hard not to be rude with such people, you're adding justification to their argument, they will probably cease to cooperate no good will come from it.

If you do get someone that has nuked windows, has been trying to run an .exe and now wants windows back and a "refund", the best bet is to try and help them but if they start to get rude it's best not to respond.

You find often that such people, when in the throes of keyboard chewing despair, will often look for someone to take out their frustration on and that will be our fellow ubuntuforumites.

These types of user are often coming straight from windows and it is often their view that if they can't use Linux then there is obviously a problem with Linux itself (too much command line use, not ready for the desktop, too difficult to install something blah blah blah). Trying to make these people see that they need to change their whole approach to the OS and the forums is difficult to say the least.

[RWells]

I kinda have to agree with RWells in a way. If people told me that Linux would be hard to get used to (and yes, some bits were pretty hard, this was back in the days of Dapper), I would have been far less frustrated.

It's a bit like injections for immunisations. People are going to be alot happier if you tell them it's going to hurt like hell rather than only being a pin-prick, even though it's for the good in the long run.


Well I am glad at least someone gets the point I was trying to make.

I realize if you really like Ubuntu it is hard not to bragg about it,but some folks need to look at the forums and recognize all the folks having installation problems, and admit that it may very well be tough for alot of people.

From what I have hav noticed on these forums the worst frustrations are related to instaltion, if one ever gets Ubuntu installed and sorted out its great.

[aysiu]

I agree completely with RWells, which is why I wrote years ago a little piece called Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)

I've also written Linux for home users - stop the hype! (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/linux-for-home-users-stop-the-hype/) and A New Desktop Linux Tactic: Play Hard to Get (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/08/a-new-desktop-linux-tactic-play-hard-to-get/).

Overhyping Ubuntu and/or Linux is usually going to lead people to disappointment and a feeling that their time has been wasted. Be honest about the problems, set the expectations low, and people will be pleasantly surprised.

And I really get tired of people saying "It's free. How can you complain?" or "Why don't you ask for a refund?" Those little disclaimers always seem to come after someone is disappointed. Before they're disappointed, all the hype is "Tired of viruses and spyware? Try Ubuntu. Best part is it's free!" Maybe those people should start saying "Worried you might be disappointed? Don't worry. It's free. Have any expectations Ubuntu might be great? Don't worry. It's free."

Be honest about Ubuntu's shortcomings, and people will not only come, but they'll stay - in far greater numbers than they do now.

[RWells]

The we can only hope you purchased Ubuntu :D
But seriously, I will not say that there isn't a learning curve. I will not even say that it isn't difficult, but is it really that much different than having windows hardware which will not work

I had an MSI wifi card that worked beautifully in linux (once i installed the damn broadcom drivers), but for the life of me, not connect to my friends SSID in windows. And that's where it stopped, because there was no way to fix it.
with linux at least I have the hope somebody has hacked into it and can show me how to work around the problem. But this is not something an average user does in windows or in linux. they just solve the issue by buying new hardware. Just like they buy a new computer when windows has become slow.

No I didnt purchase Ubuntu, but I am considering paying the $900 to see if that would help me sort out my installation problems.

You consider yourself a average user, but you are not.
The average user may not even know what wifi is.
The average user goes to BestBuy and purchases a big box and brings it home and expects it to work.

If I purchased a new $3000 MacBook and got it home and it wouldnt boot I aint calling tech support, I am taking it back and getting my money back or getting it fixed.


The average user reads the glowing info on Ubuntu.com about how perfect Ubuntu is and how it will fullfill all thier computing dreams, and then is very frustrated when it wont even install itself.

The average Linux user doesnt seem to realize they are not average computer users.

[aysiu]

The average user reads the glowing info on Ubuntu.com about how perfect Ubuntu is and how it will fullfill all thier computing dreams, and then is very frustrated when it wont even install itself. No average user reads ubuntu.com or even knows what Linux is. No average user installs an operating system herself.

As you said earlier in your post, average users buy preinstalled computers from Best Buy. They do not download CDs, set their BIOSes to boot from CD, repartition their drives, and install new OSes. The average user may not even know what wifi is.
The average user goes to BestBuy and purchases a big box and brings it home and expects it to work.

[RWells]

I agree completely with RWells, which is why I wrote years ago a little piece called Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)

I've also written Linux for home users - stop the hype! (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/linux-for-home-users-stop-the-hype/) and A New Desktop Linux Tactic: Play Hard to Get (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/08/a-new-desktop-linux-tactic-play-hard-to-get/).

Overhyping Ubuntu and/or Linux is usually going to lead people to disappointment and a feeling that their time has been wasted. Be honest about the problems, set the expectations low, and people will be pleasantly surprised.

And I really get tired of people saying "It's free. How can you complain?" or "Why don't you ask for a refund?" Those little disclaimers always seem to come after someone is disappointed. Before they're disappointed, all the hype is "Tired of viruses and spyware? Try Ubuntu. Best part is it's free!" Maybe those people should start saying "Worried you might be disappointed? Don't worry. It's free. Have any expectations Ubuntu might be great? Don't worry. It's free."

Be honest about Ubuntu's shortcomings, and people will not only come, but they'll stay - in far greater numbers than they do now.

Exactly my point.

I am sick of all the adware, spyware and trojans, and I will stick with the Linux learning curve, but it aint easy.

And I really dont need someone insinuating I am stupid because even their grandmother can do it!! How does that make it less frustating?

I am sitting on the last 23 updates on this machine because they reqiure a reboot and I know when I reboot it will remove my nvidia driver and boot to a black screen, and I still dont know exaclty what I do to get it back up.

[aysiu]

I don't think anyone was insinuating you're stupid.

Right now, without a lot of third-party support for Adobe Creative Suite and Windows-only video games, Ubuntu and other desktop Linux distros are best suited for those with low needs and low skills or medium needs and high skills, not really for those with high needs and medium-to-high skills.

If all you want to do is surf the web, check email, listen to music, organize photos, and type the occasional Word doc, Ubuntu is perfect for you, and perhaps that's what some grandmothers want to do.

[wolfen69]

Its alot harder harder because you have to learn every thing about the operating system and your hardware to get linux up and running and keep it running.



sure, it may take a little work to get it up and running, but so does windows. what can you do after a fresh install of windows? next to nothing. your work has only just begun. also, it takes no work to keep ubuntu running once it's setup.

will the average person run into some problems installing? sure. but they probably cant install windows either.

[jviscosi]

The point is, touting it as perfect is marketing hype.
It is somthing I would expect from MS

It really isn't hype; it's puffery. This is a legal term. I am not an attorney (I'm actually in IT, which makes me a non-average user), but as I recall from my business law class (with some refreshing by Wikipedia), if Ubuntu were to make any specific claim (e.g., "Ubuntu can be installed on laptops, desktops, and servers"), they could be creating a warranty. Because warranties are anathema to software companies, I would expect they've had a team of attorneys review every sentence that appears on their site to make sure it doesn't contain anything of such a nature. (This is all from the perspective of the U.S. legal system.)

Your point is well-taken, though. I make a point of not recommending Linux to people (I usually recommend Macs) unless they actually express an interest in it.

[cdburgess75]

Ubuntu is a great OS/distro. There is an option for professional support. :)

[wolfen69]

Your point is well-taken, though. I make a point of not recommending Linux to people (I usually recommend Macs) unless they actually express an interest in it.

you are perpetuating the stereotype that linux is only for geeks. shame, shame. ask any of my customers if linux is hard. (they are average to below average users) not one person has a problem with it. sure, i had to set it up for them, but then again, windows was set up for them also.

if everyone thought like you, it would never have a chance to spread.

[jviscosi]

Exactly my point.

I am sick of all the adware, spyware and trojans, and I will stick with the Linux learning curve, but it aint easy.


Yeah, this is why I bailed on Windows in 2004, when drive-by infections started occurring.


I am sitting on the last 23 updates on this machine because they reqiure a reboot and I know when I reboot it will remove my nvidia driver and boot to a black screen, and I still dont know exaclty what I do to get it back up.

I actually had this exact same problem after the Hardy upgrade; every time it would reboot the nVidia driver would go away. I finally gave up on the nvidia modules from the repository and used envyng (also in some repository or other) to install the nVidia drivers. This is quasi-nonstandard, but at least now the drivers seem to be sticking.

[RWells]

No average user reads ubuntu.com or even knows what Linux is. No average user installs an operating system herself.

As you said earlier in your post, average users buy preinstalled computers from Best Buy. They do not download CDs, set their BIOSes to boot from CD, repartition their drives, and install new OSes.


Sure they do,but they aint average after they read Ubuntu.com.

Ubuntu/Linux is getting more and more visible every day.
The average users are the ones getting frustrated, the power users are they ones blowing through with out problems and think of themselfs as average users.

[aysiu]

Sure they do,but they aint average after they read Ubuntu.com.

Ubuntu/Linux is getting more and more visible every day.
The average users are the ones getting frustrated, the power users are they ones blowing through with out problems and think of themselfs as average users. Uh, no.

Average users don't read ubuntu.com. The only way average users come into contact with Ubuntu is through Ubuntu enthusiasts who try to convert them (see earlier example about someone's grandmother).

If you stumble upon Ubuntu by yourself (without someone's help), you are a power user. Even now, you somehow imagine yourself to be an average user, but you're not. If you've downloaded and installed Ubuntu yourself, you are not an average user.

I think the distinction you should be making is between power users who lucked out / did research and had compatible hardware, and power users who didn't luck out and had incompatible hardware and a lot of headaches.

I don't see preinstalled Ubuntu at Best Buy. Even preinstalled Dell Ubuntu is tucked away deep in their website and has "Dell Recommends Windows Vista" plastered at the top of the page.

[jviscosi]

you are perpetuating the stereotype that linux is only for geeks. shame, shame. ask any of my customers if linux is hard. (they are average to below average users) not one person has a problem with it. sure, i had to set it up for them, but then again, windows was set up for them also.

if everyone thought like you, it would never have a chance to spread.

You have customers; I have friends and relatives around the country. I don't really want to get into the remote support business. But if it improves my karma score any, I have given an Ubuntu laptop to a friend who couldn't afford a new computer (which didn't go all that smoothly at first, for various reasons) and an old Xubuntu machine to a relative who also couldn't afford a new computer, and I have all the ancient computers in my wife's classroom running Fluxbox in Mandriva.

EDIT: I also promote FOSS like GIMP and Audacity on my blog, as getting people to use such software is a good first step toward getting them away from Windows. (For me, it started with Firefox and Thunderbird.) However, most people are more interested in reading about my dog than about Linux ...

[RWells]

you are perpetuating the stereotype that linux is only for geeks. shame, shame. ask any of my customers if linux is hard. (they are average to below average users) not one person has a problem with it. sure, i had to set it up for them, but then again, windows was set up for them also.

if everyone thought like you, it would never have a chance to spread.

I am sure its very easy once its setup and working correctly.
I am sure it took computer geek to setup my windows computer corectly.

It would appear that I am well on my way to bieng a computer geek.:lolflag:

[RWells]

Uh, no.

Average users don't read ubuntu.com. The only way average users come into contact with Ubuntu is through Ubuntu enthusiasts who try to convert them (see earlier example about someone's grandmother).

If you stumble upon Ubuntu by yourself (without someone's help), you are a power user. Even now, you somehow imagine yourself to be an average user, but you're not. If you've downloaded and installed Ubuntu yourself, you are not an average user.

I think the distinction you should be making is between power users who lucked out / did research and had compatible hardware, and power users who didn't luck out and had incompatible hardware and a lot of headaches.

I don't see preinstalled Ubuntu at Best Buy. Even preinstalled Dell Ubuntu is tucked away deep in their website and has "Dell Recommends Windows Vista" plastered at the top of the page.

I will agree that when First considered Linux I was on my away from being an average user, but there appears to be a void between average users and poweruser, and crossing that void is where the frustrations pop up.

Average users dont all want to be powerusers, some just dont want viruses and spyware and adware. So they begin to look for alternatives, and that invarialbly leads to Mac and Linux.

Well Mac is big bucks, Linux is free,so lets try the free alternative first.

[aysiu]

Average users dont all want to be powerusers, some just dont want viruses and spyware and adware. So they look begin to look for alternatives, and that invarialbly leads to Mac and Linux. Average users looking for alternatives will find themselves at Mac only unless they have a Linux-using friend who introduces them to Linux (and hopefully will install and configure it for them). If they have the wherewithal to find Linux on their own, they are power users.

Power users discover things themselves. Average users have things thrust on to them by advertising or friends. That's the main difference between a power user and an average user.

It's also the reason many power users get frustrated with Linux - they're used to discovering a lot of Windows-only programs and then don't like that those programs don't work on Linux. They're also used to discovering hardware without worry about compatibility.

[Twitch6000]

+1000

instantaneous support from "linux enthusiasts," as you call them, versus winblows support, waiting on the phone for an hour, listening to someone thumb through the pages of a manual, being put on hold a million times, only to arrive at the conclusion that they can't help you.


sorry, i, hmmm, don't have time to sit in front of my computer all day [whoddathunk!?], so i'll take the instantaneous help from people who actually care. thanks.

+2000 my local computer store and support is better then Microsoft.
They fixed my laptop over 5 times already lol on both the Linux and Windows partitions.

[no2guncntrl]

It's brand spanking new to me. I've explored some
of the items offered in the main menu and have
managed not to mess things up too badly. I find
myself using Ubuntu more than Windows XP
which I've used for a number of years..
I like this OS much better.
n2gc

[Old Marcus]

Have you ever tried to install Windows yourself? It's a damn sight harder than Ubuntu. I consider myself more knowledgable than the average user, but I do not consider myself a geek. Well, maybe a bit. :P But my point is, you're most likely to havin Windows preinstalled and configured to work with whatever hardware your computer has. You've probably never had to install it yourself. Very few computer companies sell computers with linux preinstalled, and like mentioned earlier, even if they do, they don't advertise it much, if at all. If you got a PC with Ubuntu preinstalled you would probably be pretty pleased and not think that you have to be a power user to use Ubuntu. As far as I'm concerned, installing Windows yourself puts you above the everage user line, and most linux users are above the line, since the only OS that the majority of people know about is Windows.

My point is, if you had to install Windows, you would probably be annoyed with it for it's lack of drivers etc. So with Ubuntu, it's the thing that plagues all those who install an OS themselves. Somebody is going to have problems.

[Twitch6000]

The average user takes their computer back to the store or a repair facility when it doesnt work.


Lies my grandparents come and get me or call me lol.Then if I somehow cannot fix it I check the forums.After that I call the local computer peeps.

[RWells]

Have you ever tried to install Windows yourself? It's a damn sight harder than Ubuntu. I consider myself more knowledgable than the average user, but I do not consider myself a geek. Well, maybe a bit. :P But my point is, you're most likely to havin Windows preinstalled and configured to work with whatever hardware your computer has. You've probably never had to install it yourself. Very few computer companies sell computers with linux preinstalled, and like mentioned earlier, even if they do, they don't advertise it much, if at all. If you got a PC with Ubuntu preinstalled you would probably be pretty pleased and not think that you have to be a power user to use Ubuntu. As far as I'm concerned, installing Windows yourself puts you above the everage user line, and most linux users are above the line, since the only OS that the majority of people know about is Windows.

My point is, if you had to install Windows, you would probably be annoyed with it for it's lack of drivers etc. So with Ubuntu, it's the thing that plagues all those who install an OS themselves. Somebody is going to have problems.

I am here because of windows installation problems,but not because it didnt recognize my hardware, that part was a breeze.

I had to reinstall because of a harddrive failure and MS says my copy of windows is not legitimate.

I think some of you folks need to understand, I aint defending MS or Windows.

And I aint bashing Linux/Ubuntu.
Just trying to help some of you see how telling people Linux is easy and perfect, and recognizes all hardware... and then not understanding when someone cant get it to work gets frustrated, is just feeding the frustration.

[Twitch6000]

I am here because of windows installation problems,but not because it didnt recognize my hardware, that part was a breeze.

I had to reinstall because of a harddrive failure and MS says my copy of windows is not legitimate.

I think some of you folks need to understand, I aint defending MS or Windows.

And I aint bashing Linux/Ubuntu.
Just trying to help some of you see how telling people Linux is easy and perfect, and recognizes all hardware... and then not understanding when someone cant get it to work gets frustrated, is just feeding the frustration.
Aint is not a word :lolflag:.
Really though you say your not bashing or defending but,you seem to be doing the opposite.

[RWells]

Average users looking for alternatives will find themselves at Mac only unless they have a Linux-using friend who introduces them to Linux (and hopefully will install and configure it for them). If they have the wherewithal to find Linux on their own, they are power users.

Power users discover things themselves. Average users have things thrust on to them by advertising or friends. That's the main difference between a power user and an average user.

It's also the reason many power users get frustrated with Linux - they're used to discovering a lot of Windows-only programs and then don't like that those programs don't work on Linux. They're also used to discovering hardware without worry about compatibility.

I am here because it was recomended to me.
The forums are full of posts about Ubuntu users recomending it to their freinds and carrying spare LiveCD's to give away.

I already had the disk burned and the first failed installtion before I new what Ubuntu-Debian-nvidia was.

I wasted 6 cd's because I didnt know what a ISO was, another 4 cd's before I learned about bittorent and cheksums, and whasingeegles and bigamets and mygabeets.

[aysiu]

I am here because it was recomended to me.
The forums are full of posts about Ubuntu users recomending it to their freinds and carrying spare LiveCD's to give away.

I already had the disk burned and the first failed installtion before I new what Ubuntu-Debian-nvidia was.

I wasted 6 cd's because I didnt know what a ISO was, another 4 cd's before I learned about bittorent and cheksums, and whasingeegles and bigamets and mygabeets.
Exactly my point. You don't stumble upon Ubuntu unless someone introduces it to you or you take a lot of initiative to find it yourself. If you find it yourself, you're definitely a power user. If someone introduces it to you, you could be a power user or an average user, depending on how the introduction is made.

Introduction to average user: I can install this operating system for you. It's a little different from Windows, but you should still be able to check your email, go to the internet, type your documents, and look at your pictures. Once I get it set up for you, I'll show you how it works. Introduction to power user: How many times have I told you to ditch Windows? Here. Have a Ubuntu CD. Try it out. If you got something more like the latter and less like the former, then you are a power user.

[RWells]

Aint is not a word :lolflag:.
Really though you say your not bashing or defending but,you seem to be doing the opposite.

I think the expression is aint ain't a word.:)

I am sorry that it seems as if I am bashing Ubunt, if I am not making my point clear then I am not helping anyone understand how to help the noobies through the frustrations and how to prevent alot of those same frustrations to start with.

My first frustrations were due to video driver problems, my current frustrations are due to having played with Ubuntu enough to know I really want to use it but I am still having video driver problems, so I spend more time reading all the nvidia problems posts on the forums than actually using/learning about Ubuntu.

[aysiu]

My first frustrations were due to video driver problems, my current frustrations are due to having played with Ubuntu enough to know I really want to use it but I am still having video driver problems, so I spend more time reading all the nvidia problems posts on the forums than actually using/learning about Ubuntu. In your case, I would recommend you stick with Windows until you're in a position to buy new hardware. When you do, buy Ubuntu preinstalled or make sure you buy compatible hardware.

[wootah]

+1000

instantaneous support from "linux enthusiasts," as you call them, versus winblows support, waiting on the phone for an hour, listening to someone thumb through the pages of a manual, being put on hold a million times, only to arrive at the conclusion that they can't help you.


sorry, i, hmmm, don't have time to sit in front of my computer all day [whoddathunk!?], so i'll take the instantaneous help from people who actually care. thanks.

Let's see. Numerous times I have replied to a person's call for help within 10 minutes to provide support and help them solve their problems.

At least in this form we don't have to deal with accents we can't even understand. As a poster above mentioned with his grandma--I converted my mom (56... I think *ducks*) to Ubuntu at 7.04 and she hasn't broke it since. She even figured out how customize everything visual, configure Thunderbird and download pictures from her camera. I know this sounds like a lot of easy stuff, but my mom is the kind of person where you have to remind them 6 times how to do a particular thing on a computer. She is so stoked about Ubuntu, even though she doesn't do anything hardcore. She loves the package manager and how she only has to go to one spot to get anything she needs.

I really don't think it's a hard system to use :) It's the 'specialized' cases that make it a pain in the butt :(

[RWells]

Exactly my point. You don't stumble upon Ubuntu unless someone introduces it to you or you take a lot of initiative to find it yourself. If you find it yourself, you're definitely a power user. If someone introduces it to you, you could be a power user or an average user, depending on how the introduction is made.

Introduction to average user: Introduction to power user: If you got something more like the latter and less like the former, then you are a power user.

I must have a geek haircut or somthing then because I definitatly wasnt a poweruser when it was recomended to me.
I was at the computer store having adware/spyware removed from a windows machine the first time it was recomended to me.

[aysiu]

I must have a geek haircut or somthing then because I definitatly wasnt a poweruser when it was recomended to me.
I was at the computer store having adware/spyware removed from a windows machine the first time it was recomended to me.
Then the person who recommended it to you was irresponsible. Did that person know you? Or was it someone who worked at the computer store?

[RWells]

Let's see. Numerous times I have replied to a person's call for help within 10 minutes to provide support and help them solve their problems.

At least in this form we don't have to deal with accents we can't even understand. As a poster above mentioned with his grandma--I converted my mom (56... I think *ducks*) to Ubuntu at 7.04 and she hasn't broke it since. She even figured out how customize everything visual, configure Thunderbird and download pictures from her camera. I know this sounds like a lot of easy stuff, but my mom is the kind of person where you have to remind them 6 times how to do a particular thing on a computer. She is so stoked about Ubuntu, even though she doesn't do anything hardcore. She loves the package manager and how she only has to go to one spot to get anything she needs.

I really don't think it's a hard system to use :) It's the 'specialized' cases that make it a pain in the butt :(

Can you picture your mother trying to burn an ISO image and installing ubuntu herself and then trying to get her nvidia drivers installed and to stay installed after every update?

Your mother is young, and lucky to have a young computer specialist such as your self to help her.

[Swarms]

So the whole issue is Windows/Mac having an advantage because they come preinstalled when Ubuntu don't.

Ok lets move on and discuss something more constructive, like how preinstalled Ubuntus (or removing the issue of installing it being hard for casual users) can be more accessible.

[aysiu]

Can you picture your mother trying to burn an ISO image and installing ubuntu herself and then trying to get her nvidia drivers installed and to stay installed after every update? She wouldn't be able to do that, but she'd be able to install and configure Windows herself? Doubtful.

[RWells]

Then the person who recommended it to you was irresponsible. Did that person know you? Or was it someone who worked at the computer store?

It was the 20 somthing kid that was taking my money.

I agree with what you are saying, but read the forums, this attitude is the norm not the exception.

It seems all the tech savy/computer savy folks just figure everyone knows as much as them, and or has as much desire to learn as they did.

[Brandel Valico]

Defiantly couldn't picture my mom doing it. But then I also can't picture my mom doing a re-install of windows either. My dad just uses their computer to play the card games and nothing else. Left to just themselves they wouldn't be able to take any computer without a pre-installed Os and get it running. It doesn't matter what OS they would be trying. It simply wouldn't happen.

But if the OS is set up and configured for them. Then my mom can use it for the basic everyday usage of the computer and a few slightly more advanced things. (She uses windows and after years has finally taken to heart she needs to actually defrag and run anti-virus which I or one of my brothers installed for her)

Still onto the important stuff.

Are you running the restricted NVidia drivers on your computer? Or did you download and install the linux ones from their website? Lets get your issue with the video drivers figured out so you can move on and enjoy the benefits linux does have. Without having to hopefully keep dealing with this same drawback.

[aysiu]

Are you running the restricted NVidia drivers on your computer? Or did you download and install the linux ones from their website? Lets get your issue with the video drivers figured out so you can move on and enjoy the benefits linux does have. Better yet, let's put that in a support thread that doesn't get distracted by endless debates.

[RWells]

So the whole issue is Windows/Mac having an advantage because they come preinstalled when Ubuntu don't.

Ok lets move on and discuss something more constructive, like how preinstalled Ubuntus (or removing the issue of installing it being hard for casual users) can be more accessible.

Well kinda, but not really.

The issue is why installing Ubuntu/Linux is so frusting for new users.

I was trying to point out how it would be benificail to point out the potential problems to the noobies before hand rather than after.

[Joeb454]

Isn't that what a Live CD is for?

[Brandel Valico]

Better yet, let's put that in a support thread that doesn't get distracted by endless debates.

Valid point and defiantly the best idea.

[aysiu]

The issue is why installing Ubuntu/Linux is so frusting for new users.

I was trying to point out how it would be benificail to point out the potential problems to the noobies before hand rather than after. The two go hand in hand actually. If you buy Ubuntu preinstalled, you have fewer or no potential problems than if you install it yourself. I do agree with you, though, that users who intend to download and install Ubuntu themselves should be warned of potential problems beforehand.

[RWells]

Better yet, let's put that in a support thread that doesn't get distracted by endless debates.

Agreed, I am here because I needed a break from reading the nvidia threads.

And I thought I might be able to help someone understand some of the frustrations, but it looks like I am not able to make my point so I think I will go see if my Harley is lonesome.:)

[RWells]

Isn't that what a Live CD is for?

not sure what yu mean here.
But this is one major frustration for me.

Why does the Live CD work, but when I install to the harddrive Ubuntu doesnt know what video card I have?

[wootah]

Can you picture your mother trying to burn an ISO image and installing ubuntu herself and then trying to get her nvidia drivers installed and to stay installed after every update?

Your mother is young, and lucky to have a young computer specialist such as your self to help her.

That is true! Luckily I configured ssh for her so I can help her remotely. For most of her questions I can give her an answer that she can type out in the terminal.

For the most part after initial configuration (which I could have walked her through over the phone) she was good to go. I bought all of her hardware by component and insured they were all Linux compatable so there were no problems that way.

Some people have more trouble, some have less. :(

[Swarms]

Well kinda, but not really.

The issue is why installing Ubuntu/Linux is so frusting for new users.

I was trying to point out how it would be benificail to point out the potential problems to the noobies before hand rather than after.

But if you buy a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled you would not experience those problems. And instead of making sure it works on exotic hardware, it would all be about giving the user a great experience.

[RWells]

But if you buy a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled you would not experience those problems. And instead of making sure it works on exotic hardware, it would all be about giving the user a great experience.


I dont understand, are you saying we shouldnt install on existing systems?

Or that nvidia video cards are exotic?

[lisati]

Exactly my point. You don't stumble upon Ubuntu unless someone introduces it to you or you take a lot of initiative to find it yourself. If you find it yourself, you're definitely a power user. If someone introduces it to you, you could be a power user or an average user, depending on how the introduction is made.

I found Ubuntu on Google - someone I knew mentioned Linux some time back and I was curious.

[immortal_asim]

RWells is right in this prespective.

over 2 years ive been with UBUNTU(i think 6.10 was my first although i had a 5.04 cd but that wont recognise my SATA drives or maybe i was having problems with it)
and i really faced a hard time installing it(6.10) i was new to linus knew nothing about root and swap etc..etc....

I also know atleast five or six person who visit me weekly with linux trouble shooting. and yes i too have faced problems with my ati radeon card but then to i dont think thats a great problem even my windows installation would drive me mad with trouble shooting it once in a while. "u learn when u do it urself" thats my moto.

im not a average or a power user just a simple user but things are difficult round here .
but then to im happy with the system(UBUNTU) cause i dont have to worry about software being ill legitimate,pirated i feel free with it thats what i like.

[justin whitaker]

Can you still have marketing hype if it's available for free?

Yes. Next question.

[Swarms]

I dont understand, are you saying we shouldnt install on existing systems?

Or that nvidia video cards are exotic?

Yes I am, if your hardware isn't supported out of box and you don't want to hunt documentation for a fix, you should buy a system with it preinstalled where everything works for you.

Even if you use a nVidia branded gpu, that doesn't ensure that the driver works. But if you pick a popular GPU, like the newer series, your chance that the driver will work is almost full.

But if you are interested in fixing it, I suggest creating a thread of your own, this has its own purpose now. :)

[justin whitaker]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I call elitism and revisionism on the part of the people here.

If Microsoft gets a glowing review from some random blogger, or from a tech site, it is quickly derided as being "paid for", FUD, or the author is attacked as a "shill."

If Ubuntu gets a good review in Wired, Ars Technica, C|Net, Newspaper, or a blog, it is linked as a example of the rise of Ubuntu (and therefore Linux).

If someone reads a good review of Ubuntu, and is having issues with XP or Vista, they suddenly think that they have a free alternative.

And they get a disc, or download an ISO, and install it.

And then they find out that this or that game doesn't run, or that they need Office 2007 for something, or that their wireless card is a PITA to configure because Linux Wireless still lags behind XP....

It's a real PR problem. Here is what the Ubuntu.com site has to say:

Ubuntu is a community developed operating system that is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers. Whether you use it at home, at school or at work Ubuntu contains all the applications you'll ever need, from word processing and email applications, to web server software and programming tools.

Ubuntu is and always will be free of charge. You do not pay any licensing fees. You can download, use and share Ubuntu with your friends, family, school or business for absolutely nothing.

It makes it all seem easy and simple. There is nothing that would dissuade someone from switching....and all those glowing reviews and testimonials make Ubuntu seem like a computing panacea (just like everything good ever written by/for Microsoft).

It is hypocritical to tout Ubuntu as a free and easy computing alternative, to hold up all the good Ubuntu press as another sign of linux uber alles, and then revile the user for not doing their homework.

If we are honest about Ubuntu, then we would revile our friends as well as our enemies, because they are running off at the mouth instead of taking a measured and sane approach to Linux.

Linux is not windows, and it may be a good alternative for some users, but it's not going to make Microsoft go away, and it isn't for everyone.

That's the approach we should be taking, not attacking potential switchers, not saying "you get what you pay for", not distancing ourselves from the hype that we just held up as proof that we made a valid choice of OS.

Treat each other right. Set the expectations. Help each other. Don't hype Ubuntu to something that it is not.

Isn't that how we would want to be treated if we were noobs?

[cardinals_fan]

1. I would think that these threads provide enough warning to prospective users. I did a lot of research before exploring Linux, and I knew exactly what I was getting into.

2. I get really irritated by the "and it has no spyware, adware, or viruses!" argument. I don't mean to insult anyone here who may have had security problems on Windows, but security is 99% up to the user. If you run a firewall (no antivirus necessary), Firefox/Opera with Javascript disabled by default, never install anything you don't trust, and use a limited user account, Windows will probably be very secure (except from Microsoft of course :) ). I ran Windows XP with no antivirus for six years and never got any infections of any sort.

[RWells]

Yes I am, if your hardware isn't supported out of box and you don't want to hunt documentation for a fix, you should buy a system with it preinstalled where everything works for you.

Even if you use a nVidia branded gpu, that doesn't ensure that the driver works. But if you pick a popular GPU, like the newer series, your chance that the driver will work is almost full.

But if you are interested in fixing it, I suggest creating a thread of your own, this has its own purpose now. :)

Im sorry I guess I just aint smart enough to follow this thread, I thought we were discussing why new users get frustrated with Ubuntu.

[RWells]

1. I would think that these threads provide enough warning to prospective users. I did a lot of research before exploring Linux, and I knew exactly what I was getting into.

2. I get really irritated by the "and it has no spyware, adware, or viruses!" argument. I don't mean to insult anyone here who may have had security problems on Windows, but security is 99% up to the user. If you run a firewall (no antivirus necessary), Firefox/Opera with Javascript disabled by default, never install anything you don't trust, and use a limited user account, Windows will probably be very secure (except from Microsoft of course :) ). I ran Windows XP with no antivirus for six years and never got any infections of any sort.

Wish I was as smart as You.
but Im not so I will just have to do the best I can.
Sorry to have irritated you.

[jrusso2]

Well what I have been noticing is two different types of threads lately. One is the "Hardy Sucks thread" and most of these seem to be from users that have been using Ubuntu and upgraded or reinstalled on the same pc and are having issues.

These people had a working install and went to upgrade and now are faced with hardware that used to work that no longer works or lockups. Just telling these people its your hardware its not Ubuntu's fault or its user error is not helpful. They are using the same hardware. Should these people not be allowed to complain because its free? Or they should not have upgraded? Why offer an upgrade feature if its not good? When is it Ubuntu's fault?

The second group of users are those who are new to Linux who say this all worked in Windows and why is Linux so obsure, why do I need all these commands to get my broadcom or wireless to work or my ATI card.

When I started using Linux it was not easy to use and install. It has come a long way. Back when I started you had to get hardware that was supported. S3 Video cards were good or other basic video cards, sound blaster 16-32 was all that worked so you got that or you had no sound. Forget about USB, DVD, WINE was new and it ran notepad and maybe Eudora. There was no package manager so you installed everything and hoped for the best, usually it was dependency hell. You had Real Player that was it for any video. You had to write a script to dial the modem and connect to your ISP. If you lost power it there was a good chance all was lost due to ext2 file system.

So things have come a long way. Yet I do think its right to complain if things don't work that should. However there is a way to complain and being angry and abusive towards Linux is not the best way to win friends and influence people. But at the same time we encourage this because if you look at those threads they get the most posts. Look at the complimentary threads and you will see a few responses, while the Hardy Sucks thread has pages of posts.

Can Linux improve? Yes, can it be made easier to install hardware, yes. If your hardware works its already pretty easy to install. The problem is when it doesn't work. Then its not just downloading and clicking and .exe driver. These are area's which could use improvement.

[cardinals_fan]

Wish I was as smart as You.
but Im not so I will just have to do the best I can.
Sorry to have irritated you.
You didn't irritate me. The people I have a problem with are the ones who wander around saying stuff like "Window$ is just a cheap virus detector".

[Swarms]

Im sorry I guess I just aint smart enough to follow this thread, I thought we were discussing why new users get frustrated with Ubuntu.
Yeah but instead of nagging around I tried to help you. :)

[lisati]

Windows acctivation suxs, reactivating a already activated legal copy of windows suxs the big one!


Trying to reactivate software after the umpteenth fresh install on the same machine after something else goes wrong also sux, especially when Microsoft sets a limit on the number of times you can do so.

[Primefalcon]

I'm not going to read through all of this, I have stuff I need to get back to, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.

My first computer was an Amiga 500, which died after a couple of years, then I started up with windows 3.0, then 95, then 98se, me, 2000, xp.

and about 1 1/2 months ago I switched over to Ubuntu and don't regret it, I've had no serious problems, I've had to post on here and ask for help a couple iof times, I think the answers were in the range of like a minute to even get a complex problem solved about xorg.conf configuration.

it was great yet if I phoned tech support anywhere else, I probably would of been told, my fault, must be the hardware fault or whatnot.

I've been told that it is faulty and to go buy a new one, said to hell with it, tinkered with it for a while called back and luckily got someone who knew what they were talking about, had it fixed in no time.

for the support on these forums are great even when you post noob questions. I'd have to say linux is a lot of friendly than Microsoft these days. Cant blame the employee's too much though I supposed when you have a gorilla ceo throwing chairs across rooms

[RiceMonster]

Yeah, I've always hated it when people complain about support for Ubuntu when there are so many people on here who help you for free out of the goodness of their hearts. These forums are so good that I've never really had to ask for help. I've just searched for it, and someone before me had that problem solved already. It's great.

[Saint Angeles]

damn... people actually PAY people to fix their computers? thats nuts. i've never had to do that and i've never met anybody who has.

then again, i used to reinstall windows (98/XP) every 6 months to keep it fast and not filled with viruses.

i'm in the wrong business! microsoft has created a whole job market with their horrible unreliable software.

[RWells]

I guess I owe everyone an apology.
I received a warning from the mods for my posts in this thread.
I will try to keep my opinions to myself from now on.
If I insulted or annoyed anyone I am sorry, that wasnt my intention.