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jackflap
May 17th, 2008, 08:34 PM
well.. to go out on a limb, in an 'intrepid' manner, so to speak :O isn't it about time we fixed the copy/paste problems??

closing applications empties the clipboard, which is nonsense really.

See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311340 for Firefox

But this bug exists all over the place, the only place I have ever seen it work properly, is gedit.. go figure

markp1989
May 17th, 2008, 08:36 PM
well.. to go out on a limb, in an 'intrepid' manner, so to speak :O isn't it about time we fixed the copy/paste problems??

closing applications empties the clipboard, which is nonsense really.

See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311340 for Firefox

But this bug exists all over the place, the only place I have ever seen it work properly, is gedit.. go figure

I quite like that it empties the clipboard, just took abit of getting used to

utUtu
May 17th, 2008, 09:39 PM
well.. to go out on a limb, in an 'intrepid' manner, so to speak :O isn't it about time we fixed the copy/paste problems??

closing applications empties the clipboard, which is nonsense really.

See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311340 for Firefox

But this bug exists all over the place, the only place I have ever seen it work properly, is gedit.. go figure

KDE/Klipper works just fine.

ronacc
May 17th, 2008, 11:04 PM
perhaps make it a selectable behavior . Though I prefer a "persistant" clipboard where it requires a positive action to empty it , I can also see some logic in one that emptys when the app is closed . It is clearly a preference issue and as such should be selectable .

MacUntu
May 18th, 2008, 01:41 AM
It is clearly a preference issue and as such should be selectable .

Agreed. Only thing we need is a Klipper-like utility for Gnome.

caryb
May 18th, 2008, 03:41 AM
Agreed. Only thing we need is a Klipper-like utility for Gnome.

Shame we spend so much time writing apps & not cross pollinating between Gnome & KDE! Then we can concentrate on building better apps & not have devs duplicating work.


My 2 bobs worth & rant. Cary

steeleyuk
May 18th, 2008, 11:00 AM
Agreed. Only thing we need is a Klipper-like utility for Gnome.

Already available in Parcellite.

Though, fixing the inital problem would be best or like has been mentioned, giving an option between a persistent and temporary clipboard would also work.

meborc
May 18th, 2008, 01:30 PM
sorry for sounding too harsh, but:

i hate the fact that people suggest using extra programs to do something that we really don't need... i mean, whenever i have tried KDE i see this clip-thing in the tray... and i try to get rid of it, as i like my desktop clean and functional... but i can't :)

clean and fast are the things i look for... adding an extra app is out of the question... i'd rather spend 2 min learning how to copy/paste before closing windows :)

steeleyuk
May 18th, 2008, 01:36 PM
I understand that, copy/paste should work as it does in Windows (in my opinion) or what has been said, there should be an option.

Though the extra programs do more, including allowing for multiple items in the clipboard.

meborc
May 18th, 2008, 01:38 PM
I understand that, copy/paste should work as it does in Windows (in my opinion) or what has been said, there should be an option.

Though the extra programs do more, including allowing for multiple items in the clipboard.

why should copy/paste work like in windows? :confused: just a question :)

steeleyuk
May 18th, 2008, 01:42 PM
In Windows, its persistent and in my opinion its how a clipboard should be. Anything I copy to there should remain there until a) I remove it explicitly or b) something else takes its place.

Though, I know some people like the clipboard to be cleared when they close down the app that has copied to it, so I see no reason for providing an option to do both.

ronacc
May 18th, 2008, 01:45 PM
as part of selectable you should be able to "select" not to have it at all. ctrl/c - ctrl/v isn't rocket science. But please realise that Ubuntu strives to be a distro that requires a minimum amount of configuration/learning from the new user . No one setup will please everyone , we aren't all clones . My preferences run from the simple to the byzantine , You decide where yous fall.

meborc
May 18th, 2008, 01:46 PM
In Windows, its persistent and in my opinion its how a clipboard should be. Anything I copy to there should remain there until a) I remove it explicitly or b) something else takes its place.

Though, I know some people like the clipboard to be cleared when they close down the app that has copied to it, so I see no reason for providing an option to do both.

true... but i'm kind of paranoid... (probably the reason i use gnu/linux)... so i really like the fact that when closing an file/application, no info can be copied from it... but that's just me

btw... i now realise that i have never had that problem, i mean i have never closed a file accidentally before pasting the info to somewhere else... i guess i have just been lucky... and i understand that some people could get frustrated

hexion
May 18th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Take a look a this.. it just works as the clipboard in Windows without any annoying icon anywhere..

Used it for more than one year.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=420535

curtis
May 18th, 2008, 08:22 PM
Wouldn't it save memory to remove all copied data when the application is closed?

olskar
May 18th, 2008, 09:25 PM
Take a look a this.. it just works as the clipboard in Windows without any annoying icon anywhere..

Used it for more than one year.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=420535


Wow! That should really be installed by default! Perhaps hard since it is not even in the repos yet..(at least I cant find it?)

disturbedite
May 19th, 2008, 12:57 AM
KDE/Klipper works just fine.
not always. this is a firefox issue though, not a desktop environment/user interface issue.

durand
May 19th, 2008, 02:54 PM
I used to have this problem but it works for me now and without gnome-clipboard-daemon. As it said in that thread, this problem was resolved with gnome 2.12. Maybe it's just a firefox problem? I don't use firefox :/

aamukahvi
May 19th, 2008, 07:12 PM
Agreed. Only thing we need is a Klipper-like utility for Gnome.
You mean Glipper (apt:glipper)?

MacUntu
May 19th, 2008, 10:09 PM
Yes. That would be totally sufficient (for my needs).

Gina
May 19th, 2008, 10:59 PM
You mean Glipper (apt:glipper)?Thank you :) I'll give it a whirl - I could do with being able to hold more than one item on the clipboard.

jackflap
May 20th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Glipper doesn't actually fix this problem. It provides a tray icon which holds all recently copied items. This is a workaround, and for a very non-technical user, this isn't a solution since it the expected behaviour is still broken.

There isn't really a good reason to empty the clipboard, and the memory argument is a bit silly since most computer have enough memory nowadays, and if they dont, then this should be an xubuntu feature.

Not only that, but the only situation that I can understand the memory issue would be a problem is Gimp since it could copy all layers from a layered image out of the app. It's a shame that they've broken copy/paste altogether in order to fix an uncommon issue in a single application.

disturbedite
May 20th, 2008, 07:00 PM
as i said before, the problem is with firefox afaik, and i looked it into a long time ago.

jackflap
May 22nd, 2008, 06:47 PM
as i said before, the problem is with firefox afaik, and i looked it into a long time ago.

The problem is also with evolution, thunderbird, pidgin, virtualbox, gnucash, sunbird, GIMP, and OpenOffice. I didn't bother trying any others since it was pretty obvious what was going to happen.

Bugs are open in all upstream projects, and yet, even though alot of them were submitted over 2 years ago, most of them are still unfixed.

I think Ubuntu would be doing the whole Linux-community a massive service if they would just write patches to fix these issues for the upstream devs.

Either that, or put political pressure on gnome to re-work the clipboard spec so that it doesn't empty when an application closes.

durand
May 22nd, 2008, 07:12 PM
The problem is also with evolution, thunderbird, pidgin, virtualbox, gnucash, sunbird, GIMP, and OpenOffice. I didn't bother trying any others since it was pretty obvious what was going to happen.

Bugs are open in all upstream projects, and yet, even though alot of them were submitted over 2 years ago, most of them are still unfixed.

I think Ubuntu would be doing the whole Linux-community a massive service if they would just write patches to fix these issues for the upstream devs.

Either that, or put political pressure on gnome to re-work the clipboard spec so that it doesn't empty when an application closes.

You're right, just tried with pidgin and it does have this problem. However gnome-terminal and gedit don't...

syxbit
May 22nd, 2008, 07:35 PM
this has bugged me for ages.
i just install glipper.
i agree though, glipper shouldn't be necessary

disturbedite
May 22nd, 2008, 07:57 PM
The problem is also with evolution, thunderbird, pidgin, virtualbox, gnucash, sunbird, GIMP, and OpenOffice. I didn't bother trying any others since it was pretty obvious what was going to happen.

Bugs are open in all upstream projects, and yet, even though alot of them were submitted over 2 years ago, most of them are still unfixed.

I think Ubuntu would be doing the whole Linux-community a massive service if they would just write patches to fix these issues for the upstream devs.

Either that, or put political pressure on gnome to re-work the clipboard spec so that it doesn't empty when an application closes.
this is strange. i remember reading a while back about this very problem in the firefox knowledge database. fwir it said it was a firefox issue.
i wouldn't know about those other programs though, i use kde. firefox & ooo are the only gtk apps i use but i haven't ever had copy/paste problems with ooo.

caryb
May 22nd, 2008, 11:21 PM
i use kde. firefox & ooo are the only gtk apps i use but i haven't ever had copy/paste problems with ooo.

I don't either but KDE uses Klipper for it's copy & paste functions & it seems to be immune from these problems!


Cary

BTW this isn't intended to be a Gnome/KDE flame war as we have our share of problems in KDE-land

disturbedite
May 23rd, 2008, 06:43 PM
I don't either but KDE uses Klipper for it's copy & paste functions & it seems to be immune from these problems!


Cary

BTW this isn't intended to be a Gnome/KDE flame war as we have our share of problems in KDE-land
actually, if you had read my previous statement, you'd see that i said that is not the case. i get the problem occasionally on kde (with klipper of course). this happened with kde3 & still does occasionally in kde4 which again leads me to believe it is a firefox issue.

olskar
May 23rd, 2008, 07:49 PM
I can confirm that this bug is in pidgin too. However I was able to copy from other programs after I close them so perhaps this is a firefoxissue and a pidginissue? Not something that is systemwide.

smartboyathome
May 24th, 2008, 12:52 AM
I think this is a non-gnome issue. GNOME fixed it for their apps, but other apps aren't fixed (for various reasons). Most of the above 'broken' programs are not really part of GNOME, so they have not had the gnome stuff applied to them.

madjr
June 1st, 2008, 07:03 AM
why should copy/paste work like in windows? :confused: just a question :)

i think you read bug #1

Ubuntu's main target are windows users and to lower msft's marketshare.

even wubi is included by default to archive this.

We can't lack in features and ease of use.

then they'll think we're an "incomplete" and under develop system.

if we have weak points then someone will aways exploit them.

while a full featured clipboard is not such a "big deal".... it has been for some reviews i read not so long ago from windows testers who just expect certain minimal functionality.

online distribution is how linux gets spread, so every bad review counts and affects greatly ubuntu (unlike windows which is pre-installed)

tdrusk
June 1st, 2008, 04:45 PM
Wow. In the longer than 2 years that I have used Ubuntu I have never noticed this haha. It's not a big deal for me, because when I am copying and pasting something I finish the job, then close out of windows I don't need.

hugmenot
June 2nd, 2008, 04:45 AM
Evolution even clears the clipboard when you close a ‘new mail’ window and re-click on reply-all, when you forgot to do that. So annoying!

meborc
June 2nd, 2008, 08:55 AM
i think you read bug #1

Ubuntu's main target are windows users and to lower msft's marketshare.

even wubi is included by default to archive this.

We can't lack in features and ease of use.

then they'll think we're an "incomplete" and under develop system.

if we have weak points then someone will aways exploit them.

while a full featured clipboard is not such a "big deal".... it has been for some reviews i read not so long ago from windows testers who just expect certain minimal functionality.

online distribution is how linux gets spread, so every bad review counts and affects greatly ubuntu (unlike windows which is pre-installed)


wellllllll... first of all, ubuntu is ment as an alternative, NOT a replacement (in the sence of 100% likeness)

i don't like the idea of people saying "ubuntu should do stuff more like windows... because then we get more windows users to use ubuntu..." that is not true... what we get is a group of people who think ubuntu is a windows clone and they expect everything to work like windows and they get really mad when they realize that this is not true :)

i think all users should understand that gnu/linux is not a windows clone and does things differently

(ps, i think a clipboard options to save is a good idea... i just don't like the way it is requested)

BungaMan
June 2nd, 2008, 09:18 PM
At the office I frequently use it in a way that I copy a number, then close the application and then use this number to query in other systems. CRM, database, email... this number is pasted everywhere and I don't want or need to keep the originating application open for as long as I use this number. How silly would that be? Then your clipboard is your application, not the memory.

Amaranth
June 3rd, 2008, 08:46 AM
The problem is that applications support many formats for copy/paste and the only way to reliably make the clipboard persistent would be to stuff a copy of every single format in a clipboard daemon which could take gigs of memory.

For example, App A outputs application/xml, random/my+format, and text/plain versions of what you've copied. App B supports random/my+format and text/plain for pasting. App C supports application/xml for pasting. Which version of the output should you save? The only correct answer is all of them but now you've got 3 copies of the data in memory.

Without a clipboard daemon (how it works now) the app you're pasting into will say "I support application/xml" and the app you copied from will say "alright, here is the data formatted as application/xml" and there is no wasted memory.

Now, that said, there is a clipboard daemon in GNOME that will store text/plain data so you can copy some text from gedit, close gedit, and paste the text into another app.

If you pay attention Windows actually has the same problem, they just handle a couple more formats instead of just text/plain.

durand
June 3rd, 2008, 03:07 PM
The daemon isn't in the repos and Im not sure what to use. I dont think clipboard-daemon works anymore http://members.chello.nl/~h.lai/gnome-clipboard-daemon/

meborc
June 3rd, 2008, 04:30 PM
the name "glipper" was used before... i guess that is the utility?!

durand
June 3rd, 2008, 05:03 PM
It doesn't seem to load correctly for me. I added it to the panel, but it just crashes with the usual applet error.

fsando
June 23rd, 2008, 09:03 PM
I think it may be worth going with "klipper" instead of "glipper" - the KDE version. I found it much better in 7.10 I'm about to test it in hardy now.

durand
June 23rd, 2008, 09:21 PM
I think it may be worth going with "klipper" instead of "glipper" - the KDE version. I found it much better in 7.10 I'm about to test it in hardy now.

You can install it after installing hardy but it won't be included on the cd because you need all the qt dependencies.

soccerboy
June 24th, 2008, 12:35 AM
I've never experienced this as I always paste before closing but an option would be nice.

soccerboy
June 24th, 2008, 12:36 AM
it does get annoying when windows hangs on to clipboard information, confidential information that you don't want easily accessible.

xlinuks
July 17th, 2008, 12:17 AM
Hi,
I think Ubuntu still does a great favor to Apple and M$ by not solving such ridiculous issues like the copy/paste one (the buffer gets lost after window closed unless the user *knows* he needs to install a special program for that, like glipper, to avoid such unexpected puzzles).
Mandriva as far as I remember has the glipper equivalent for KDE installed by default, so should Ubuntu.
Solving this would mean one unpleasant surprise less (which hits every user).
I know this has been debated in the past but still seems to hang in the air in the Ubuntu camp.

Sorry if this should be posted in another thread.

philinux
July 17th, 2008, 12:23 AM
Well, since I don't use windoze anymore/at all I'm not sure what you are on about.

mc4100
July 17th, 2008, 12:58 AM
Well, since I don't use windoze anymore/at all I'm not sure what you are on about.
It's pretty clear:

...the buffer gets lost after window closes...
Meaning that whatever had been copied using, for example, CTRL+C, is wiped for memory when the application from which you copied is closed. I actually think this is useful and it doesn't bother me much, however I know it works some of the time. Which means it's inconsistent and should be fixed, so, I think that some sort of daemon-ish thing should be keeping the data in memory. In fact, I'm sure there's another thread with that very suggestion ::goes to search::

EDIT: found it :
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=797758&highlight=copy+paste+daemon

olskar
July 17th, 2008, 01:04 AM
Yep this should be merged

Nullack
July 17th, 2008, 01:05 AM
Its a feature not a bug

zekopeko
July 17th, 2008, 01:11 AM
on the plus side we have 92 years until the 22nd century...

Talon2
July 17th, 2008, 01:15 AM
I agree 100%.

This is a productivity killer here as I never can seem to remember that in Linux I have to leave documents open until after the paste.

Is there a bug already posted that we can pile on?

olskar
July 17th, 2008, 01:37 AM
I agree 100%.

This is a productivity killer here as I never can seem to remember that in Linux I have to leave documents open until after the paste.

Is there a bug already posted that we can pile on?

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/11334

olskar
July 17th, 2008, 01:37 AM
Its a feature not a bug

Oh, come on, how can this possibly be a feature? :(

Edit: Ok, found out that this is a design feature of X11, but it is not a very nice feature I think :/

p_quarles
July 17th, 2008, 02:38 AM
Similar threads merged.

Gina
July 17th, 2008, 08:40 AM
I too don't like this "feature" I'm afraid! OK if some people want it, provide the option - most would consider it a bug, as we have seen. I have glipper installed but sometimes it won't load at boot and gives an error. NOT satisfactory :(

xlinuks
July 17th, 2008, 02:51 PM
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/11334

Haha the "bug" is marked as a "whishlist". This is ridiculous, it's a must-have for a desktop environment, with such attitude to desktop users Linux is guaranteed to stay under 5% for the next century, no designer or simple users need arguments about the X11 design (this is pathetic), if Linux can't provide such obvious features they do what's expected for them to do - move to an OS that can do such easy tasks by default, to a no-brainer like Mac OSX. The desktop market is very different from the server market.

Talon2
July 18th, 2008, 02:11 AM
Please allow me to point out that this problem is listed on Brainstorm as well:

http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3118/

Run on over and give it a few votes. Spread the word.

This is a bug based on bad design. I've been around for quite a few years. I remember early implementations of copy/paste. I have never seen copy/paste designed as it is on this platform. We need this problem corrected ASAP.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 19th, 2008, 05:34 AM
This is a bug based on bad designBut this is not a (single) bug, and if anything it is good design that the underlying technology does not make the clumsy assumptions people are hoping for. This is simply how copy & paste works; it is a means to pass data from one application to another, similar to drag & drop. The fix is completely legitimate, but should definitely be at a higher level.

If I may be so blunt, I think people are using copy & paste wrong :P It is as if they are using a CLI, happily disappearing information to memory somewhere to be called back by a vague command down the line. The nice thing with a GUI is you should not need to disappear that information, but can rather keep it on screen at all times.

By adding any clipboard manager, we face the problem that copy & paste operations can no longer carry detailed information. In essence, a regression. A regression bug is much, much worse than a feature request bug. (I could be mistaken, mind you. Will Glipper / others send the relevant requests back to the application originally owning content when it is asked to paste?).
I don't like the idea of copy & paste being a clumsy / unpredictable operation, since it is sort of an accessible drag and drop. Without it, accessibility-troubled users have no means to transfer information between open applications.

Having said that, I rather like the clipboard manager used in Maemo, which pops up a little notification bubble when stuff is copied. This way, one can be certain that it has worked, which is rather nifty since copy & paste is usually disturbingly silent.

PS:
Why is Brainstorm being used as a bug tracker?! This upsets me greatly.

Edit:
This bug report (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/106644) (coincidentally, filed in the correct place) puts things a bit clearer, too. This is partly an issue of the individual applications...

Edit Edit:
Sorry about all the post editing. I think it's how I wanted it now.

hugmenot
July 19th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Sorry, but if something as fundamental as Copy & Paste works significantly different from other established platforms, in a data discarding way, that is a genuine usability bug.
I mean copy and paste is super-fundamental to the WIMP metaphor, similar to the double click. I guess Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V are the first shortcuts a new user will internalize. Why make the effort to replicate shortcuts, window controls, etc, when the behaviour of copy and paste is so drastically counter-intuitive?[1]

[1] if you want to nitpick about the word "intuitive" insert "against user expectation" here

xebian
July 19th, 2008, 03:53 PM
@xlinuks

Wait a minute. This is not a Linux issue. Rather a Gnome issue and Linux != Gnome.

@all users not happy with copy & paste in Gnome

If it's so big a deal, then it's a compelling reason to use KDE. :)
The solution is here - switch to KDE with its configurable klipper.

:guitar:

nystire
July 19th, 2008, 05:26 PM
This is not really a Gnome issue. Rather, it is an X.Org issue which Gnome, unlike KDE, has chosen not to deal with at this stage.

Talon2
July 19th, 2008, 06:52 PM
But this is not a (single) bug, and if anything it is good design that the underlying technology does not make the clumsy assumptions people are hoping for. This is simply how copy & paste works; it is a means to pass data from one application to another, similar to drag & drop. The fix is completely legitimate, but should definitely be at a higher level.

Mr. Picklesworth,

Please allow me to use this anology: People on this planet have been driving cars for a relatively long time. Over the period of time since cars were invented there has been standardization of how to operate cars. A new car company comes along with a nice new car. Many people test drive the car but they find out that to apply the brakes one must first push on the brake peddle but before the brakes will engage one must also apply the clutch peddle. This causes a stir so the companies' chief engineer gives a speech explaining why this new method of applying the brakes is far superior. The company held the line and did not change this poorly designed feature. The chief engineer soon found himself in the unemployment line.

We can talk a about the technical details all day long. However, that doesn't really matter to the majority of end users as long as the cost to use the product is held to a minimum. Ubuntu, by allowing this non-standard method of doing a very basic function, is presenting users with a cost--the cost of learning something new and for those who use multiple operating systems the further cost of having to do this basic function in different ways on different systems.

Users could care less about the technical details. Whether this should be corrected in X.org or with a add-on is beside the point. The point is that Ubuntu is not adhering to long accepted standards and I, for one, object. This BUG needs to be fixed.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 19th, 2008, 08:36 PM
Ah, but I'm just pointing out that the requests almost read like X itself should be changed in its handling of copy & paste, which it should not. I agree that we need a clipboard manager. (Actually, just about everything to do with X needs a manager tacked on top. Seems to be the way of things). I believe even Windows has a separate clipboard manager process somewhere.

The catch is, though, that clipboard managers installed additionally by the user can get away with causing problems here and there because they aren't default components of the platform. The default has to be a really clever one to avoid any regressions. It should start offering its own text/plain version of the copied data only when the application owning that data actually closes. The behaviour must be consistent and predictable, though, since people don't expect copied data to change in type, and that particular behaviour is a tad trickier to learn than copied data plain disappearing. Notifications for when data is copied and when it loses its source application could be done via libnotifty, similar to how it works with Maemo on Nokia's Internet Tablets.

meitetsuman
August 23rd, 2008, 08:35 AM
I can't copy text from my email and paste it into OpenOffice wordprocessor. Is this normal? I have both windows open (Firefox and OpenOffice) at the same time.

meitetsuman
August 23rd, 2008, 09:01 AM
OK, using Control C to copy and Control V to paste worked! That's going to throw a lot of new users though. Most people are used to clicking on the copy and paste buttons.

Gina
August 23rd, 2008, 09:27 AM
I frequently - though not all the time - find copy/paste not working in Kompozer. Unfortunately It's not reproducible since it works fine much of the time so filing a bug is difficult.

Nullack
August 23rd, 2008, 09:50 AM
So much energy that's not going to lead to much :)

It would be more effective to go upstream to Gnome and start participating in the usability areas to present all your views.

DavidONE
August 23rd, 2008, 11:52 AM
http://parcellite.sourceforge.net/ (http://www.getdeb.net/app/Parcellite) is a better solution than Glipper IMHO.

rubberglove
September 2nd, 2008, 02:44 PM
http://parcellite.sourceforge.net/ (http://www.getdeb.net/app/Parcellite) is a better solution than Glipper IMHO.

parcellite looks nice, but it doesn't yet support select-to-copy, which is a must-have feature for me. glipper would do the trick...if only it would load (crashes consistently in intrepid so far).

I was hoping to try out the latest gnome stuff on its own (I've been using kde for the past couple of years), but it looks like I'll now be installing klipper and its 170MB of dependencies...

DavidONE
September 2nd, 2008, 02:53 PM
Looks like that was recently added as feature request: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2063196&group_id=235597&atid=1097280