Dell or System 76?

[Unstuck]

My friend bought a Dell n-series laptop at my suggestion, and it's been a bit of a disappointment, especially after version updates. After updating to Hardy and losing sound and wifi and Dell's insistence that I restore to the factory presets (promptly followed by an admission they don't really know what they're talking about when it comes to the OS), I've been reconsidering a planned Dell purchase. How does System76 stack up? I expect a certain amount of problems with a major release, but I'm a little fed up with Dell...

[Tart]

I'm new system76er. I'm really happy with my machine. And I can see that system76 staff working extermely hard on all issues. Their support is great. They even helped me out this some specific issues not related hardware or system76 drivers. I don't see this type of support from dell. When I was in grad school i had dell laptop, and their support was really terrible. Just based on this I recommend system76 over dell.

I hope this helps in your decision.

[hkarl629]

I Have a Serval Performance (July 2007). It is a really nice machine. The service from System 76 has been very good. I am new to Linux/Ubuntu and have been through 3 operating system upgrades (Feisty Fawn, Gutsy Gibbon and now Hardy Heron) all done automatically and with no problems. System 76 also regularly sends out updates to drivers to further tweak components when needed. I am still learning and enjoying the process. Am trying to wean myself away from Microsoft and make converts of those who have only known MS. I am a retiree and volunteer as a teacher of computer classes so am still attached to MS by virute of their dominance in the consumer marketplace. Other than that inconvenience I'm satisfied that I made a wise choice by going with System 76, an unknown (to me) up to time of purchase.

Hope this helps with your decision and that others voice their opinion too.

Sincerely,
Karl Juelch

[perce]

I have a white Darter, and my experience with the previous upgrades were that
there have been problems at the beginning, but they were solved rather quickly by the System76 team.

[TheBuzzSaw]

System76 has the best service I have ever seen. They are so responsive and give personalized details for your questions. I own a Daru2 (black Darter Ultra) and now a Wild Dog. They are the best for running Ubuntu. Everything is fully supported, and the performance is superb! For what it's worth, I play recent games (like Portal) in WINE on my Wild Dog, and it performs VERY smoothly. :)

[wyth]

I can't speak for System76, but I can for Dell.

Dell's Linux support seems to be an entirely different branch from all their other support, and it isn't easy to track down. But if you have a supported system (most likely only if you bought the system with Ubuntu loaded on it), their support is pretty solid. I've had to call them twice for my 530n, and it's been fantastic every time.

The direct number for Dell Linux support is 1-866-622-1947.

[weverjames]

go with dell. You will get a cheaper system (300 bucks less) with the same specifications. I bought a gazelle and no advantage in terms of support. I upgraded to ubuntu 8.04 and lost wireless. no way to get a decent solution for this. All what they say is that it has to be your router. It sucks!. And this is not a isolated problem. search the web.
But if you decide to buy a system 76, I can sell you mine!

[MorphWVUtuba]

go with dell. You will get a cheaper system (300 bucks less) with the same specifications. I bought a gazelle and no advantage in terms of support. I upgraded to ubuntu 8.04 and lost wireless. no way to get a decent solution for this. All what they say is that it has to be your router. It sucks!. And this is not a isolated problem. search the web.
But if you decide to buy a system 76, I can sell you mine!

I can definitely understand frustration with that. I got that "it has to be your router" runaround from an ISP who I don't want to mention but their initials are Verizon High Speed Internet.:mad:

I have a Gazelle (gazv2) about a year and a half old now. I haven't upgraded to HH yet, but I have not been pleased with the physical strength of this laptop. As I've posted on here before the keyboard feels chincy, and the left laptop hinge has failed completely. Parts are completely unavailable for this model, (ASI Mobile, SW1) which my local mom&pop computer shop is convinced is a Gateway. I haven't found a Gateway that's built on this platform, so I'm not convinced. But anyway, this model has been discontinued from the upstream manufacturer and System76 has upgraded this line 3 times since that purchase. So my dissatisfaction with the hardware shouldn't be a factor for any future purchases.

Aside from the hardware problems I've had, the System76 people have been OUTSTANDING to deal with. Although repair parts weren't available for the hinge, it wasn't for lack of trying on S76's part. The fact that I can't stand having a laptop that the display tilts on it, and along with how pleased I am with the service I've received from System76 both pre- and post-warranty expiration, I am going to be purchasing another machine from them very soon.

Now, I have to say, there aren't isolated incidents of people being dissatisfied with the service they receive from Dell. Like you said, search the web. Dell has some examples right on the Ubuntu/Dell page in the customer feedback. I also have to point out that you do not have the same number of options to spec out the laptops. Not only do you have much more options for each component, you can't build as fast a machine with Dell. You can't get anything more than a 2.2GHz, anywhere, can't get more than 160GB on the 14.1" model, and you can't get anything more than a 128MB video card, anywhere. And the desktop comparison? Please. Dell's selection is a joke compared to System76, even before you get to the meager-at-best component choices.

It isn't just Dell that System76 compares better, with a more customizable line of Linux computers. I've checked out R-Cubed and ZA Reason, and while they compare better than Dell, System76 still has more and faster options, as of the last time I checked.

[compholio]

go with dell. You will get a cheaper system (300 bucks less) with the same specifications. I bought a gazelle and no advantage in terms of support. I upgraded to ubuntu 8.04 and lost wireless. no way to get a decent solution for this. All what they say is that it has to be your router. It sucks!. And this is not a isolated problem. search the web.
But if you decide to buy a system 76, I can sell you mine!

The last time I checked System76 was between $50 and $150 less expensive compared to a similarly configured dell. However, I usually look at high end boxes and I could not configure the dell options to be as good as the System76 options (and System76 was still less expensive).

[ctsdownloads]

The last time I checked System76 was between $50 and $150 less expensive compared to a similarly configured dell. However, I usually look at high end boxes and I could not configure the dell options to be as good as the System76 options (and System76 was still less expensive).

Dell is great, assuming their shipping carrier happens to decide to get the delivery to you as promised - Google DHL shipping with Dell and be amazed. Overall I will say this, you will get what you pay for. Needless to say, I will not ever being giving Dell's big-box mentality my business ever again.

[ctsdownloads]

go with dell. You will get a cheaper system (300 bucks less) with the same specifications. I bought a gazelle and no advantage in terms of support. I upgraded to ubuntu 8.04 and lost wireless. no way to get a decent solution for this. All what they say is that it has to be your router. It sucks!. And this is not a isolated problem. search the web.
But if you decide to buy a system 76, I can sell you mine!

$300 cheaper is a stretch, but yes, you will end up a machine that reflects Dell's "quality"...

As for wireless, any time you are using an "always in motion" OS such as desktop Linux and the ever-changing Ubuntu, I tend to recommend always having a good USB wifi adapter in reserve. This is hardly a System76 issue you are having as it is clearly, a Linux issue with the chipset you have. Yes, it sucks really badly. But I do not believe for a split second it is something that can not be fixed.

Now I used to be a PC repair person - that was my business, my profession. If I atributed wireless issues to the chipset immediately without doing the following before coming to that conclusion, I would have been driven out of business:

- No love with the router, try another. Still not working, consider RF interference and try some war driving to find an open access point.
- If it is connecting on open (not at home WIFI access points) WAPs, but not at a home wifi network - open or restricted, then it would indicate you have an RF issue and not a chipset issue. If I remember correctly, I pointed out that some older routers have a firmware bug that creates issues with MAC filtering. Even when it is on or off, entered correctly, etc, you can still be prevented from connecting. Hence why it is worth trying the connection elsewhere before exclaiming that it is the chipset.
- Please never use WEP, you might as well go with MAC filtering as it is sooooooooooo incredibly dated and insecure. That and WPA is generally more reliable with compatibility anyway. ;)

When all of the above has been exhausted and by George, you cannot not connect to anything ANYWHERE outside of your normal neighborhood (I test in front of hotels myself, its free and a great diagnostic tool), then you have a bonafide bug to report. Unfortunately, most people never go this far before filing a report however....

Generally, if the bug is significant enough, it is worth rolling back to a release of Ubuntu that works with that chipset.

An example would be me dealing with Flash 9 and 64bit Ubuntu. It drove me nuts until a fix was released, but I chose to run that release of Ubuntu - System76 did not force me to upgrade to Ubuntu 8.04 and if you believe Dell is going to help you when something similar happens to a better degree, you would be very badly mistaken, despite their own dedicated Linux support group being better than that seen with their Windows support.

Just a few things to think about.

[ejhayes]

I am in a similar Dell or System 76 position, assuming I prefer to buy a pre-installed Ubuntu laptop.

I am replacing an aging Dell 600m (4 years old). It has been a great laptop. A few minor cosmetic issues came up after 3 years of use (the microphone and lid close sensor died), but the system runs well. The hard drive died at 2 years, but was replaced free (I was traveling all the time and put the laptop in a normal backpack, so that hard drive failure is likely my fault).

My girlfriend bought a 1420 (with Vista) 6 months ago. The quality of her 1420 is not as good as my 600m (although it cost about 60% as much). I guess in the last 3-4 years the way Dell has made their systems much much cheaper has been to cut quality (and ship support overseas). While the keyboard on my 600m is not Thinkpad quality, it is much much better than the 1420. When I use the 1420, I feel like the keys will fall off if I type too hard. Other things seem cheap too, like opening and closing the CD drive.

I can't speak for System 76 and I wish I could get one to play with before I have to decide on a laptop.

I also wonder how the Dell XPS laptops are? Although there is no 14" size, and they cost more?

I am also torn because I prefer non-glossy screens and Dell seems to be the only company that lets you configure that as an option.

[savantelite]

Go to each website.
Dell recommends Windows Vista® Home Premium.

If you are ok with that buy dell

Just keep in mind that you are reading this in System76 Ubuntu forum.

as my last note System 76 has been ubuntu users freind for a long time. Dell is just looking for market share. You can't even find anything ubuntu on dell.com home page.

[mdozurk]

There is hardware out that that works with Linux and hardware that doesn't. When I brought my system76 Gazelle my assumption was that System76 would make a laptop which worked really good with Ubuntu. That assumption was wrong. I have had endless sound issues and sadly learned to live with them. I just recently tried out the card reader (surprise surprise) and it does doesn't work. I think to have a company which only produces linux PCs is a great idea but the execution is poor (no offense to the support people who answer these forums, you seem to want to help but your product just sucks).

Mustafa

PS: You might look into buying an lenovo laptop and installing ubuntu yourself. My 5 year old laptop works really well with Ubuntu.

[jdb]

The older the laptop the better it will work with linux.
It takes a while to get drivers written & bugs fixed when new hardware is released.

I have a bunch of old desktops running linux that work great. I put a new motherboard with all the latest & greatest stuff in one of them a few years ago & had a heck of a time getting it to work right, it works perfectly now.

It's a rough job offering the latest in hardware & getting it all working right with linux.

Also if things not working perfectly is a big frustration, it's a good idea to wait a few months (or even a year) before upgrading to a new ubuntu.

jdb

[ctsdownloads]

There is hardware out that that works with Linux and hardware that doesn't. When I brought my system76 Gazelle my assumption was that System76 would make a laptop which worked really good with Ubuntu. That assumption was wrong. I have had endless sound issues and sadly learned to live with them. I just recently tried out the card reader (surprise surprise) and it does doesn't work. I think to have a company which only produces linux PCs is a great idea but the execution is poor (no offense to the support people who answer these forums, you seem to want to help but your product just sucks).

You must have some really odd-ball setup as I own a new Gazelle Value - everything works fine - wireless to sound. What does not work however, is not fully grasping the way PulseAudio works, which has been the single biggest issue I have seen with most people using Ubuntu 8.04. I am among the first to say the way Ubuntu released Pulse was poorly done as needed control panel offerings still needed to be downloaded as to fully enjoy the benefits provided by this sound server.

As for the card reader, this could happen, be it something I have never ever had a problem with. Anything brand name generally works fine, I own four from different time periods - 4 years old to less than a month - all of them work just fine.

As for bad mouthing a company's product, I think you will find yourself collectively alone (generally speaking) on your feelings I am afraid. This is the second computer I have purchased from System76. The biggest problem I witness in most cases is the lack of grasping how things work or do not, often assuming when something fails, then it certainly must be the OS or the hardware. When you have a problem, the company will provide a list of possible solutions. Unfortunately, short of offering an exchange, I fail to see how anyone can expect them to hand-hold users to the extent I see in the ubuntu forums some days. Seriously, it is frustrating but I have a news flash for you - the computer is also capable of running Windows, too. Hence why the driver Cd is provided....

My guess is that your hardware works fine.

You, the end user, are in the drivers seat. If you and you alone have a problem that the rest of us seem to be able to surf by with little issue, then perhaps it is time to move onto using Windows again? Not ripping on anyone, but this thread is getting on my nerves as it is completely bogus. Here's the skinny - if the hardware works on a Windows box - guess who is responsible for the software related problems? You guessed it. ;)

[Steve413z]

I got my grandfather (who has never used a computer before in his life), a ubuntu dell, installed gutsy for him with no problems, and he has had no problems with it.

He had a problem with his cable modem once though, and it was something that the cable company had to come to his house to repair... it's kinda funny to hear about the reactions people give when they find out he's running linux.

[ctsdownloads]

I put a new motherboard with all the latest & greatest stuff in one of them a few years ago & had a heck of a time getting it to work right, it works perfectly now.

Must have been some motherboard. Either that or it has something to do with using Linux some years ago vs today - big difference in hardware support and update frequency. :)

Desktops generally do not have these problems anymore. Unless you perhaps had issues with some ATI video card that was giving the impression that it was to do with the motherboard.

[ctsdownloads]

I got my grandfather (who has never used a computer before in his life), a ubuntu dell, installed gutsy for him with no problems, and he has had no problems with it.

He had a problem with his cable modem once though, and it was something that the cable company had to come to his house to repair... it's kinda funny to hear about the reactions people give when they find out he's running linux.

Yeah, especially when they hand you a Windows only install CD - man I hate that... :lolflag:

[ctsdownloads]

Go to each website.
Dell recommends Windows Vista® Home Premium.

If you are ok with that buy dell

Just keep in mind that you are reading this in System76 Ubuntu forum.

as my last note System 76 has been ubuntu users freind for a long time. Dell is just looking for market share. You can't even find anything ubuntu on dell.com home page.

Well said, better put than anything I came up with. :guitar:

[unutbu]

Here is a comparison of Dell and System 76's basic desktops.

Dell 530N System 76 Ratel Value
BOTH: Intel® dual-core E2180 (2GHz)
BOTH: 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
BOTH: 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
BOTH: Networking: 10/100 (LAN)
Ubuntu 7.10 Ubuntu 8.04
LinDVD (legal DVD player) -- (?)
16x DVD+/-RW Drive CD-RW / DVD-RW
nVidia GeForce 8300GS 128MB Intel 950 Graphics Media Accelerator
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio Realtek ALC 662 4 Channel Audio
10 USB Ports 6 USB Ports
USB Keyboard/Optical Mouse Logitech Internet 350 Desktop Keyboard/Mouse
1Yr In-Home Service, Hardware Warranty 1 Yr.
Parts+Labor Ltd. Warranty and Technical
24x7 Phone Support

$319 $577

These are the web pages I used to configure the machines.
dell: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=ddcwdal&c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&kc=segtopic~linux_3x
system76: http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=80

[jdmelton]

I have both Dell and System 76 laptops.

My previous company used Dell exclusively with various versions of Windows. Dell gave fantastic hardware support, for which we paid. Dell gave limited operating system support and the many proprietary programs that we used as an OEM in automated machinery, they knew nothing about. I still recommend Dell to my current clients for Windows platforms.

However, if you need support beyond hardware replacement on Linux-based systems, I would highly recommend System 76 over Dell. I have no relationship with System 76, other than being a satisfied customer.

Before going with System 76, I went with Dell. I called several times with various issues. There may be competent Linux support staff working for Dell, but I was never able to reach them by telephone. The local Dell support staff were not trained in Linux, either. Oh, I could get a keyboard replaced, but no software help.

I realized that the Dell foray into Linux is a side-line for them. I applaud their efforts. Yet for System 76, Linux is no side-line. It has been written by others, but it is really pertinent...where is the Ubuntu Dell support forum?

The desktop system quoted in the previous post showed a couple hundred dollars difference. If you do not need support, then maybe cheaper is better. Yet if you need support, you can get it here from System 76. Where will you REALLY get support for Ubuntu from Dell?

[archer6]

If you want a top of the line laptop with superior build quality, best keyboard, display and structural rigidity, and Ubuntu Linux friendly it's hard to beat a ThinkPad. They are currently offering the "R" models in 15.4" & 14.1" widescreens for just $536 & $618 respectively. And that's with a nice selection of components.

A friend of mine just got his 15.4" last week, I Installed Ubuntu on it for him and in less than two hours he was up and running just like it came preloaded on the laptop. Everything works, it's fast stable and he is truly enjoying it. IBM supports Lenovo and they are very Linux friendly. So I just thought I would share this alternative.

Source: (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=DE3CFBC23C43487D87A3BFF52A54D1E8)

Cheers

[WeEatVista]

I'd have to easily say go with System 76. [/rant] I'm saying this not just because their computers are badly made and when you call their tech support your probably calling a teenager in the house down the street, but because as soon as you install ubuntu on their computer, they don't give you any support [/rant]

Now, System 76 comes loaded with ubuntu, which is great. If there is a problem, they give you excellent customer service. System 76 is one of my favorite computer companies. So, seriously, go with System 76. Their computers also come with hardware made to work with ubuntu. If you buy a dell, I guarantee one thing will go wrong with a video,audio,wi-fi,etc.

Hope you buy System 76 and not dell :)

-We Eat Vista

P.S. System 76 have pimp stickers, and they give them to you for free =D

[EmilyRose]

I've been pretty happy with System 76. They've been super good about helping to get stuff set up and figured out. Its a great little laptop (I have a gazelle, think its the performance gazp4 or 5 or something)! My only complaints are the unfunctioning finger print scanner, and the system 76 sticker on the front is kinda peeling off... though that may be my son's fault (he's 15 months...) ;)

[archer6]

I've been pretty happy with System 76. My only complaints are the unfunctioning finger print scanner,

This is a very common complaint on just about any brand of laptop, with any OS, that has a fingerprint scanner. One of the best is ThinkPad and yet I couldn't get it to work for me. In the end it was because my fingerprints are very hard to read. Therefore if that's the only complaint you have, your System 76 is a great laptop!

Cheers!