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muncrief
April 26th, 2008, 09:02 AM
I see a lot of posts from frustrated users about the recent Hardy release, and I would like to recommend that all new users of Ubuntu please try the Gutsy release for four to six weeks until the Hardy release is stabilized.

This is because unlike other distributions Ubuntu releases a new version every six months, no matter what. No matter how few, or how many, bugs are known to exist.

But this actually works quite well, because the millions of Ubuntu users quash the bugs very quickly. And without a staff of 500 or so full time engineers, there is really no other way to assure a stable release every six months.

So please enjoy Gutsy, and Hardy in a month or so. You will find that hands down Ubuntu is the best Linux distribution today.

FredB
April 26th, 2008, 09:37 AM
I see a lot of posts from frustrated users about the recent Hardy release, and I would like to recommend that all new users of Ubuntu please try the Gutsy release for four to six weeks until the Hardy release is stabilized.

Unstable, Hardy ? So explain me why I DIDN'T get a SINGLE crash since I installed Hardy beta...



This is because unlike other distributions Ubuntu releases a new version every six months, no matter what. No matter how few, or how many, bugs are known to exist.

No ? :)


But this actually works quite well, because the millions of Ubuntu users quash the bugs very quickly. And without a staff of 500 or so full time engineers, there is really no other way to assure a stable release every six months.

So please enjoy Gutsy, and Hardy in a month or so. You will find that hands down Ubuntu is the best Linux distribution today.

Sorry to say that but I'm using ubuntu since Dapper RC, and the only bad version was Edgy. Every single other was very good at the release date.

jingo811
April 26th, 2008, 09:57 AM
I'm suspecting that muncrief was directing his personal advice towards Absolute Beginners not medium rare and veteran users :). For that occassion I agree with what he's trying to do even if the technical details weren't 100% correct.

I had a bundle of problems when I started with Breezy as a total Linux newbie. Ubuntu.com doesn't explain the release cycles clear enough to absolute beginners I think. They slap the latest version on their main page without explaining clearly the meaning of "stable" releases and "beta" releases. They hide that info deep down in some obscure place on their website.

This philosophy only serves to burn more newcomers from the Windows world rather than help make the Linux transition smooth and fun.

FredB
April 27th, 2008, 04:20 AM
Just replace hardy but gutsy in the main title.

And you'll find a look-alike article.

And in 6 months, Intrepid Ibex will be treated the same way.

agim
April 27th, 2008, 07:43 AM
I haven't had a single problem with the new version either. New users shouldn't be scared away. Hardy has better hardware support, which probably the most important thing for a new user.

pbpersson
April 27th, 2008, 07:47 AM
I have one Hardy and one Gutsy in my bedroom now, so I have the best of both worlds......I'm just confused sometimes as to which machine I'm on :confused:

harrykh
April 27th, 2008, 08:08 AM
He was directing this to new users that are having problems with Hardy, please re-read again don't just get carried away by the title.

It's good that many of your installations are working fine but there are also many that aren't. And since 7.10 has been out a lot longer, there are obviously a lot more support/workaround to problems than for an os just out it's beta stages.

Just read the sticky and see how many people are having 'problems which i've not been able to solve' with even fresh installations (ideal install condition).

Trying out 7.10 won't do any harm if 8.04 didn't go too well. For one thing it gives new users a reason to stick around than just abandoning Ubuntu all together. As it was in my case.

LaRoza
April 27th, 2008, 08:11 AM
This is bad advise. Use the current stable version for the best support. There is a chance that an older version will work better, but start at the top. No need to start with the oldest and work your way up. If Gutsy works, then you go to Hardy. What a waste. If Hardy doesn't work, try Gutsy. That makes more sense. Less downloading and hassle.

FredB
April 27th, 2008, 09:11 AM
Thanks for having post my answer before me ;)

Anyway, a lot of people have problems because of "dirty" (lot of addition and removal of software, 3rd parties repository and so on) previous version.

And they won't admit it...

acl123
April 30th, 2008, 04:08 PM
A lot of people are just a little annoyed that Hardy keeps LOCKING UP entirely. An operating system that needs to be hard reset 4 or 5 times a day is essentially useless.

Rallg
April 30th, 2008, 04:37 PM
I haven't had any lockup problems, but then I do not exercise all the software. Also, there seem to be some hardware-related issues. I'm happy with Hardy. However, to get it the way I like it, I had to use some tricks that I happen to know how to do. A novice might not know them.

Many novices will have a wireless card that does not work out of the box in Gutsy, without configuring ndiswrapper. That's not a novice task. But the wireless will work out of the box in Hardy, provided that you can download the necessary driver via cable.

General advice: Try the live CD first.

togo59
April 30th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Quote from: Developer.com (http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3742696) (BTW: Gerry Carr is Canonical's Marketing Manger)

...Red Hat argued that it's difficult to justify a profitable business case for the consumer desktop in light of Microsoft's dominance. Ubuntu and Canonical don't share that view.

"They're right in that no one has proven it yet but then we believe that no one has developed the momentum of Ubuntu or maintained the focus of Ubuntu," Carr said. "And we have always maintained that the consumer desktop is important for all sorts of reasons like hardware compatibility, ecosystem development, and user adoption and that being good there has spill-over effects on the success of the Linux desktop in other spaces."

Canonical can't have their cake and eat it. Either Ubuntu is an OS for the masses or it's an OS for Linux geeks. If it's to take on Microsoft as Carr seems to think it will, then it's for the masses.

Most of us could not give a fig how the OS works deep down. I want to get on with my day job and use a robust and reliable OS that lets me do that. This may mean simply running office applications, mail etc etc. And use wireless. YES - Out of the box!

Anyone who talks of "novices" is probably missing the whole point of Ubuntu. I prefer the term "new user" as it does not carry the same disparaging connotations.

This particular novice has experience of ICL's George OS; Perkin-Elmer's OS32; Michigan Terminal Systems (MTS); Unix (Solaris); DEC's VMS; CPM; MS-DOS; DR-DOS; Windoze; Linux Mandrake; SuSE and now Ubuntu. But as a user (programmer) mainly, systems admin with OpenVMS only.

Of my two 8.04 upgrades, both went swimmingly but only one installation works properly (see my other post for help) and having spent days trying this way and that to wrap a Broadcom wireless driver under Gutsy (using ndiswrapper 1.5.2), I hoped that Hardy would, with it's woopee Windows Wireless Wrapper tool, do the business. But no.

I agree, however, that the best way of testing is to get it used but I think it's a bit rich heralding the arrival with such a panoply of hype when it's not even finished. Better to call it 8.04 RC1 or something.

I want Ubuntu to succeed and I am a huge fan of open source. Please stop assuming that this particular Linux is for non-novices -- it's not, it has the special responsibilities of being for everyone. And I think we novices could do without condescension.

Only trying to help. I'm a control engineer and we like negative feedback.;)

PartisanEntity
April 30th, 2008, 06:18 PM
I know some of our newer members will cringe reading this :) but in my opinion having problems and trying to find fixes for them is the best way to learn.

When I joined the Ubuntu community under Dapper, I had a hell of a time with my broadcom wifi card, I worked on it for about a week and was very very frustrated, i tried so many tutorials I couldn't keep track of them and hosed my system several times in the process. But it got me using the terminal and this way I familiarized myself with the system.

My advice to new users is, take it easy, don't run away from problems, try to stick with it until the end, in most cases you will have a very rewarding experience.

It is a benefit both for the individual users as well as the community to have informed and experienced users, not just users that point and click. Getting to know the underlying system, through some tweaking to get things working, is of immense value.

So happy hosing :)

astepintothedark
April 30th, 2008, 06:37 PM
I agree, however, that the best way of testing is to get it used but I think it's a bit rich heralding the arrival with such a panoply of hype when it's not even finished. Better to call it 8.04 RC1 or something.

I want Ubuntu to succeed and I am a huge fan of open source. Please stop assuming that this particular Linux is for non-novices -- it's not, it has the special responsibilities of being for everyone. And I think we novices could do without condescension.

Well said.

To be fair though, I've found the Ubuntu forums to be extremely new user(;)) friendly when it comes to helping determine bug resolutions. I've tried Mandrake in the past (2004), when I was attempting Linux for the first time, and I found the help to be lacking a bit. As a result, I was apprehensive at first when I switched from Windoze to Ubuntu because I was expecting pretentious Linux geeks to yell "RTFM!!!" -- thankfully that wasn't the case.

As for stable versions, I really think Ubuntu should put their best foot forward and market a stable version of Ubuntu, such as Gutsy, Feisty, Edgy, or whatever works, and works well. Ubuntu cannot be expected to move forward in competing with Windoze for market share of desktops OS' if it doesn't just pop out of the box and work. Granted, not everyone is having a bad experience with Hardy, but if more than 30% of users (or less) find the newest version to be buggy, the previous more stable version should be the main download offered, while the newer versions are optional.

I too would like to see Ubuntu succeed because I absolutely love the support and wide array of software options available. Ubuntu is indeed supposed to be for new users and novices, and it should be kept that way.

astepintothedark
April 30th, 2008, 06:46 PM
I know some of our newer members will cringe reading this :) but in my opinion having problems and trying to find fixes for them is the best way to learn.

When I joined the Ubuntu community under Dapper, I had a hell of a time with my broadcom wifi card, I worked on it for about a week and was very very frustrated, i tried so many tutorials I couldn't keep track of them and hosed my system several times in the process. But it got me using the terminal and this way I familiarized myself with the system.

My advice to new users is, take it easy, don't run away from problems, try to stick with it until the end, in most cases you will have a very rewarding experience.

It is a benefit both for the individual users as well as the community to have informed and experienced users, not just users that point and click. Getting to know the underlying system, through some tweaking to get things working, is of immense value.

So happy hosing :)

I think learning about how one's operating system works is good for everyone, but I think that goes against the idea of a OS that just works, or is that not what Ubuntu is trying to accomplish? The "What is Ubuntu" page says, "Once installed your system is immediately ready-to-use (emphasis mine). On the desktop you have a full set of productivity, internet, drawing and graphics applications, and games." Is it suppose to be ready for just those applications that come with the Ubuntu installation, or is it suppose to also be ready-to-use for outside applications or games, like UrbanTerror (which requires pretty much little to no Linux experience to run)?

As I said above, if Ubuntu isn't ready-to-use for 30% or less of the users (from a fresh install), then a more stable version should be the version marketed (and the main download).

Just my $.02 on the whole issue. I love Ubuntu and want to see it succeed.

PartisanEntity
April 30th, 2008, 06:59 PM
I understand where your are coming from and I agree to an extent, no one wants to spend time managing their operating system and fixing problems.

At the same time I cannot relate to some of the criticism. I have installed Ubuntu on Asus, Acer, Thinkpads and Macbooks. It keeps getting easier and easier. I thought I would have many problems with my new Macbook, yet in a matter of 1 minute I had my wifi card working using ndiswrapper and sound working by editing a file and rebooting.

Once you have tweaked Ubuntu to overcome some issues, if any, it really does just work.

No operating system is fault free and no operating system is tweak free. IMO you are being somewhat unfair when you demand that everything should work on Ubuntu out of the box when perhaps you are aware of the fact that certain companies do not want to release the source code for their closed and proprietary products.

Despite this obstacle, we have tons of easy to use tools that make the hardware work, and most of it takes a maximum of 5 minutes to use and implement through copy & paste tutorials.

The limits of Ubuntu working out of the box on 100% of hardware start where companies do not want to release their source code and don't want to write Linux compatible drivers either.

If you want Ubuntu to work with 100% of hardware this will require it to be shipped with closed proprietary drivers and tools that cost money in licensing to use and include, you should then be prepared to pay for it and Ubuntu will cease to become Linux for human beings and turn into Linux for human beings with money.

We users also cannot have our cake and eat it too :)

bigbrovar
April 30th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I quite agree with this post... Hardy has some serious issues .. lockups crashes and the likes .. and its giving a lot of pple nightmares .. me included but i have decided to stay and weather the storm cus i think i can manage .. but i wont advise New user to try it out.. not bcus it wont work for him .. (chances are that it would work perfectly since it did for most users..)but just in case he falls into the category of pple like me .. it might kill his spirit and he might never try Lniux again... we should remember that most pple are turning to Ubuntu becus of the perceive stability it has over windows.. it would be very disappointing for them if they find the exact opposite... some pple see Ubuntu has perfect.. the reality is that its not and things can go wrong after all the devs are Human.. it would do a lot to Ubuntu Rep if it were to officially admit that some users are having lockups with their systems.. but the issue is been ironed out.. to ignore it and pretend that everything is normal bcus 70% of users have a problem free hardy would make it what become the very thing it wants to change --- MICROSOFT

gn2
April 30th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I've used Ubuntu since 5.10 and the only release I had major problems with was 7.10, but only on my old PIII laptop.

But I didn't try to suggest that everyone revert to 7.04, that would just have been daft.
I did recommend people to use 7.04 instead of 7.10 on similar older hardware though.

Most users will have no problems whatsoever with 8.04 and newcomers should definitely try 8.04 first.

FuturePilot
April 30th, 2008, 07:28 PM
I know some of our newer members will cringe reading this :) but in my opinion having problems and trying to find fixes for them is the best way to learn.

When I joined the Ubuntu community under Dapper, I had a hell of a time with my broadcom wifi card, I worked on it for about a week and was very very frustrated, i tried so many tutorials I couldn't keep track of them and hosed my system several times in the process. But it got me using the terminal and this way I familiarized myself with the system.

My advice to new users is, take it easy, don't run away from problems, try to stick with it until the end, in most cases you will have a very rewarding experience.

It is a benefit both for the individual users as well as the community to have informed and experienced users, not just users that point and click. Getting to know the underlying system, through some tweaking to get things working, is of immense value.

So happy hosing :)
+1

sports fan Matt
April 30th, 2008, 07:31 PM
+1..

NightwishFan
April 30th, 2008, 07:32 PM
The only thing that locks up in Hardy so far is Totem. I will find out why if it persists.

drascus
April 30th, 2008, 07:40 PM
I have found Hardy to be much more stable then Gutsy. I have not gotten a grey screen that kills firefox once yet. I have not had a problem at all with my DE and it seems as though my Nvidia card actually performs better under Hardy.

NightwishFan
April 30th, 2008, 07:49 PM
I added the "Hardy Proposed". Totem does not freeze now.

swoll1980
April 30th, 2008, 07:51 PM
I'm sick of hearing about how "unstable" Hardy is. I've been using it since alpha 5 and have had not a single crash. If it's crashing for you either a. your video card doesn't run compiz well (so disable it) or b your having flash crashes on firefox (uninstall libflashsupport) any other crash is most likeley from a third party program

Wobedraggled
April 30th, 2008, 07:52 PM
A lot of people are just a little annoyed that Hardy keeps LOCKING UP entirely. An operating system that needs to be hard reset 4 or 5 times a day is essentially useless.


I find that hard to believe, since I have been doing installs since release with no lockups.

astepintothedark
April 30th, 2008, 07:56 PM
I agree that to expect perfection from Linux is completely unrealistic -- even Windoze has it's issues from the get go. And of course, closed source/proprietary hardware will run better AND the hardware manufactures make it difficult for Linux users; but my point is that Ubuntu should put forward it's most stable release as the main download. If Hardy is more stable than Gutsy, so be it; but if it's not, Gutsy should be the main version and beta versions should remain optional. That's main point, but stable releases should be relatively easy to use and implement for the new user.

togo59
May 1st, 2008, 07:23 PM
I think Ubuntu is WAY better than windoze in all but one respect. I love the way it works.

There IS support for Ubuntu. There ISN'T support for windoze. (Not for the likes of me, anyway.)

I am glad I can now use it with an AV projector as with Gutsy I couldn't get the resolution right.

The one thing that's not right for me is the friggin wireless. I know, I know, I know it's not Ubuntu' fault that Broadcom wireless wotnots are written by wallys for windoze but surely it's not beyond the wit of mankind to get something that's supposed to communicate to actually communicate. I am seriously thinking about buying another wireless card.

..and why when I set my ssid using iwconfig is my ssid not shown correctly when I type iwconfig eth1? I don't think that's the fault of the driver writer! :wink:

Ravse
May 1st, 2008, 08:21 PM
This thread is a mess.

Obviously some people are experiencing problems with the new Hardy release, and obviously others are not. There's no need to argue whether it's a stable release, because it all depends on hardware and programs/drivers used.

I've been using Linux for about 10 years now, and I'm experiencing problems with Hardy too. Problems that are simply not there on any of the previous Ubuntu releases.

If Hardy is perfectly stable, then how come:

1. I simply cannot boot from the desktop or alternate CDs without getting errors that prevents me from installing.

2. If I actually upgrade from Gutsy to Hardy, the OS is doing random lockups whenever I use OpenGL (probably related to Catalyst 8.x restricted drivers in Hardy)

I've tried a lot to get things working, but it's simply not stable for me yet.

It's a good piece of advice. New users should try Gutsy while Hardy is getting stable.

aysiu
May 1st, 2008, 08:28 PM
I would tell new users to never install a new release within a month of its release.

In other words, don't install Hardy Heron until the end of this month. Don't install Intrepid Ibex until late November. Don't install Jolly Jaguar until the end of May 2009. Don't install Kleptomaniacal Koala until the end of November 2009.

And so on.

Jammerdelray
May 1st, 2008, 09:23 PM
How is it then, Not 1 single crash since installing Hardy Heron, everything works the way it should except for a few "VERY" Minor bugs.

You should be persuading people to install Hardy and give it a try instead.

jonabyte
May 1st, 2008, 09:27 PM
I found Feisty more stable and better to install than Gutsy...

aysiu
May 1st, 2008, 09:30 PM
How is it then, Not 1 single crash since installing Hardy Heron, everything works the way it should except for a few "VERY" Minor bugs.

You should be persuading people to install Hardy and give it a try instead.
Not everyone has the same experience. I've been through Hoary, Breezy, Dapper, Edgy, Feisty, Gutsy, and Hardy, and with every release there are people experiencing problems and those not experiencing problems. The safest bet, though, is to wait a month after release.

TeraDyne
May 1st, 2008, 09:34 PM
How is it then, Not 1 single crash since installing Hardy Heron, everything works the way it should except for a few "VERY" Minor bugs.

You should be persuading people to install Hardy and give it a try instead.

I would gladly use Hardy, except that the 2.6.24-16 kernel doesn't like my SATA drives, and doesn't get beyond a busybox prompt. If I upgrade, it'll do the same unless I use the 2.6.22 kernel from Gutsy. However, things are extremely unstable at that point.

Just because you're not having problems doesn't mean the rest of are the same way.