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cyberdork33
April 22nd, 2008, 03:53 AM
With the advent of the new forum upgrades, it looks as though the admins have felt it necessary to merge the two Apple Hardware Support forums for some reason.

Personally, I think that PPC and Intel Macs are unique enough in their own respect to justify separate forums. However, since it looks like we will all be together for some time at least, I would ask that the Stickied threads be looked over by the appropriate posters to eliminate statements that don't make sense anymore (like, "if you have an Intel Mac, go here") and make sure that the good information available is properly labeled as applicable to Intel vs PPC Macs (or both, if there are any).

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 04:04 AM
Or at the very least, I'd like to see a prefix for PPC when starting a new thread.

Since we both run iMacs of a different breed, how are they going to tell us apart? :)

Dawn of a new era!

cyberdork33
April 22nd, 2008, 04:11 AM
Or at the very least, I'd like to see a prefix for PPC when starting a new thread.
Yes I thought that as well. I think there are some things that we can collaborate on, but we still need to keep some of the things that allow us to separate Intel from PPC. I wonder if they can make separate prefixes for different forums?

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 04:29 AM
I guess for now we'll have to be very specific in our thread titles. I ran across this very same issue in another forum, and wanted to stress that I was not asking for a PPC forum to be isolationist, but to try and ward off threads that can go absolutely nowhere from well-intentioned users not being aware of the differences.

Imagine this: "to get rid of your splash screen that seems to be causing problems, just add "nosplash" to your /etc/yaboot.conf file, and then later make the system aware of it with


sudo ybin -v -C /etc/yaboot.conf

Huh? I don't have a yaboot.conf, nor a ybin. You mean grub right? Should I download ybin or yaboot?

Dunno, always used yaboot. Let me look. I don't have a grub, what is that?

Moving on.... I can't seem to get compiz working on my 1998 G3 iMac. Can anyone tell me how?

Sure, just download and install the proprietary nvidia driver and then ....

Wait, I that driver doesn't work, what's going on?

I think you see the problem. :)

It is really hard to convince people that PPC folk aren't trying to be isolationist - it is the peculiarities of the hardware that can lead to endless threads if both parties aren't aware of the differences...

Stickies are a good idea, but can you see it now welcoming every new ppc or intel apple user with:
"Welcome aboard! Read the sticky. Read it again. Don't even reply to someone unless you read the sticky." Ok, so I'm being dramatic, but you can easily hide "rtfm" behind a sticky if you aren't careful. :)

cyberdork33
April 22nd, 2008, 04:49 AM
It is really hard to convince people that PPC folk aren't trying to be isolationist - it is the peculiarities of the hardware that can lead to endless threads if both parties aren't aware of the differences...
hehe. and here I thought we might be perceived as isolationists. I think Macs in general are "peculiar" even from their Intel or PPC counterparts. Mactels with the EFI system and such make them a unique case pretty much anything else out there.

peestandingup
April 22nd, 2008, 05:04 AM
Its fine if they wanna merge them, but did they really have to move all those old threads to the archive & start from scratch??

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 05:05 AM
A lot of people seem to have that notion of us wanting to be peculiar, but what could be more linux-mainstream than trying to run Ubuntu on it? Once past the initial struggle of installation, we can be released back into the general population. :)

I hope they reconsider, considering that the sparc port has it's own forum, which is also "unofficial".

At any rate, I'm LOVING my Hardy-RC install and want to thank the volunteer devs and users.

russo.mic
April 22nd, 2008, 07:19 AM
Well, I must say, I'm currently Loving my Hardy Mactel setup. But I agree, as a frequent of the intel apple forum, Merging PPC and Intel seems like a bad idea. If anything, we should segregate by kernel, and since intel apples use the standard kernel...

Just seems as though a lot of confusion is on the horizon. I try to give advice to the best of my ability, as I feel it helps me learn more, and shudder the thought of giving someone bad advice simply because they didn't think or know to state the PPC vs. intel thing.

Hey, My old setup is pasted here from my profile! what gives?

oswaldkelso
April 22nd, 2008, 07:52 AM
Merging intel mac and ppc is a very dumb idea from an existing or potentual users point of view. If anyone can see a plus in it I'd like to hear it.

russo.mic
April 22nd, 2008, 08:33 AM
Merging intel mac and ppc is a very dumb idea from an existing or potentual users point of view. If anyone can see a plus in it I'd like to hear it.

Well, To play devil's Advocate, I'd imagine it's easier on the Ubuntu Forums people. Less Data to handle.

I'm also guessing (Please, PPC people don't kill me here) that the PPC forum is getting less and less attention the more time goes on, simply due to the fact that Apple is no longer making them.

oswaldkelso
April 22nd, 2008, 08:59 AM
Well, To play devil's Advocate, I'd imagine it's easier on the Ubuntu Forums people. Less Data to handle.

I'm also guessing (Please, PPC people don't kill me here) that the PPC forum is getting less and less attention the more time goes on, simply due to the fact that Apple is no longer making them.


That's why I said from a users point of view. I disagree about less data, an unclear layout can mean more data as it can take longer to find an answer. I think your right that apple ppc machines usage can only go down. But ppc may not have peaked yet. Though are at or near that peak (i'm guestimating here) as the spec required to run osx goes up so does linux usage on ppc.

I am concerend that this is just another step to distancing ubuntu from ppc.

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 09:42 AM
I'm also guessing (Please, PPC people don't kill me here) that the PPC forum is getting less and less attention the more time goes on, simply due to the fact that Apple is no longer making them.

We won't kill you! We're a pretty mellow bunch for the most part. Getting systems up and running doesn't leave much time for any cheerleading or squabbling. :)

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 09:50 AM
I think your right that apple ppc machines usage can only go down. But ppc may not have peaked yet. Though are at or near that peak (i'm guestimating here) as the spec required to run osx goes up so does linux usage on ppc.

Couldn't have said it better. Actually, purchase of ppc has dropped, but that leave a large amount of perfectly good machines that might fall by the wayside to be picked up and put into use - witness the large amount of users getting circa 1998 G3 iMacs up with Xubuntu etc. There are a lot of people who want to put even more modern machines to good use, but might balk at installing OSX Leopard on it and need some help here.


I am concerend that this is just another step to distancing ubuntu from ppc.

I used to wonder that too, but as long as they keep providing unofficial download repos, and even a forum such as it is to discuss things, I guess we're doing ok. :)

There's always those cool blogs / sites like yours. Nice work btw...

oswaldkelso
April 22nd, 2008, 12:16 PM
Couldn't have said it better. Actually, purchase of ppc has dropped, but that leave a large amount of perfectly good machines that might fall by the wayside to be picked up and put into use - witness the large amount of users getting circa 1998 G3 iMacs up with Xubuntu etc. There are a lot of people who want to put even more modern machines to good use, but might balk at installing OSX Leopard on it and need some help here.



I used to wonder that too, but as long as they keep providing unofficial download repos, and even a forum such as it is to discuss things, I guess we're doing ok. :)

There's always those cool blogs / sites like yours. Nice work btw...

I agree that ppc users have no god given right to a special place in the ubuntu forum. But mixing it with intel macs can not lead to a better or clearer way to fix things on ppc or intel macs. After all a good user experience is what's wanted isn't it?

Enough moaning, what ppc really needs is a ppc specific pod cast. Do you have a mic :)

Also how did you multi quote I can't get it to work since the down grade

Thanks for the nice comment on my site, I really should put more effort into it.

oskarloko
April 22nd, 2008, 12:51 PM
As many said above, I don't like the idea. Even if Canonical is dropping support to PPC architecture - with the new Ubuntu LTS and no PPC version of it.

One question about this threads: questions about iPod, iPhone,iTouch. iTunes, etc. with Ubuntu will be discussed here ? Beacuse 'Intel Mac Users' refers to the computers, but 'Apple Users' may refer to any product sold/developed by the Apple company or maybe not ?

And BTW, is there any way to buy a non-Apple, new, modern, PPC desktop computer today ? Or all the desktops resume to Intel/AMD/Via chipset and x86/x64 architectures ?
[Edited: except PS3, of course ]

blurg
April 22nd, 2008, 02:03 PM
I really fail to see why they've merged us - this will only lead to confusion as people will inevitably forget to put Intel or PPC in their thread title!

Any forum staff around to explain the rationale, if there is one, or did it just seem to be a "good idea"?

cyberdork33
April 22nd, 2008, 02:09 PM
Well, I must say, I'm currently Loving my Hardy Mactel setup. But I agree, as a frequent of the intel apple forum, Merging PPC and Intel seems like a bad idea. If anything, we should segregate by kernel, and since intel apples use the standard kernel... I'd be a little careful what you ask for there. It was a fight to get a Apple Intel forum. Originally they were saying Intel Macs are the same as any normal PC, so questions should be made in the x86 or x64 forums.


Just seems as though a lot of confusion is on the horizon. I try to give advice to the best of my ability, as I feel it helps me learn more, and shudder the thought of giving someone bad advice simply because they didn't think or know to state the PPC vs. intel thing.
I asked in the "Forum Feedback & Help" forum and they are suggesting that there will be added prefixes ppc and intel to stick on posts so that we can tell them apart better. See this thread if you would like to voice opinion to the Admins:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=762221


Merging intel mac and ppc is a very dumb idea from an existing or potentual users point of view. If anyone can see a plus in it I'd like to hear it.I think that it would be OK... I didn't really like it when I saw what happened but I would be willing to work with it. There are some things that we might be able to learn from each other, but, unfortunately, there is not much hardware alike between the two variants.


And BTW, is there any way to buy a non-Apple, new, modern, PPC desktop computer today ? Or all the desktops resume to Intel/AMD/Via chipset and x86/x64 architectures ?
[Edited: except PS3, of course ] Xbox360 is based on PPC too ;)

I think there are some server configurations based on PPC out there, but not really desktop systems.

oswaldkelso
April 22nd, 2008, 02:22 PM
I dont think there are any desktop boxes now pegasos has discontinued their machines. The xbox360 and wii are the only other non-Apple, new, modern, boxes that runs ppc that I know about. Looking at the yellowdog and fedora forums a large number of new users are ps3 gamers.There is wiili for the wii. It seems if you give a geek a box they will run linux on it.

rectagonal
April 22nd, 2008, 04:28 PM
I dont think there are any desktop boxes now pegasos has discontinued their machines.

Genesi/Pegasos discontinued their Pegasos product line. But still produce PPC hardware. They currently sell the EFIKA workstation , and last I checked they were working on a successor.

http://www.genesi-usa.com/openclient.php

Seems kind of silly for the forums to differentiate between 32bit and 64bit x86 , and not ppc and intel apple hardware...

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 08:17 PM
As many said above, I don't like the idea. Even if Canonical is dropping support to PPC architecture - with the new Ubuntu LTS and no PPC version of it.

They dropped "official" support long ago. It is now all-volunteer unofficially. You can still get it for PPC:

UPDATE: the url's for downloading were removed after I stumbled upon this request:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=763798
.
.
.
But you won't see this offering on the official download pages. You gotta' come here to find out! :)

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 08:23 PM
The other aspect of keeping a PPC port alive, even if unofficially, is to promote a green planet.

You are far more likely to find PPC Macs being great candidates for re-use or introductions to Linux, than say a Sparc box in the home. (which as of now, the sparc forum has zero messages. :)

oswaldkelso
April 22nd, 2008, 09:00 PM
I'll second that! and congratulations on 1000 posts:guitar:. Well done that man/woman? I'm sure many people have been helped by your posts I know I have. cheers

stream303
April 22nd, 2008, 09:05 PM
Thanks - although I wasn't really keeping count. In the end it's about community, and a single post from a newcomer is just as valuable. We're all just standing on each other's shoulders...

slacka-vt
April 25th, 2008, 03:30 AM
Funny thing is
-My Ubuntu PPC Forum Bookmark still lists active threads and performs as though the forums had not merged.

Perhaps my browser still holds that golden "cookie" from yonder year when PPC and Intel Macs were Beasts of a different Breed.

Wierd Science :confused:

BTW Streamer Three Ohhh Threee !!!
Big Ups for all your help for me personally as of late (and probably more in the future)

~s

cyberdork33
April 25th, 2008, 01:36 PM
Funny thing is
-My Ubuntu PPC Forum Bookmark still lists active threads and performs as though the forums had not merged.

Perhaps my browser still holds that golden "cookie" from yonder year when PPC and Intel Macs were Beasts of a different Breed.

Wierd Science :confused:

BTW Streamer Three Ohhh Threee !!!
Big Ups for all your help for me personally as of late (and probably more in the future)

~s
the old forums are archived and users can only reply to open posts.

ssam
April 25th, 2008, 09:51 PM
i think the merge is a bad idea.

merging powerpc and sparc into a ports forum would make more sense (though i would prefer separate).

do the intel macs really need a separate forum? and more than there should be a forum for every other hardware manufacturer.

the a a lot of differences between powerpc macs and intel PCs:
bootloader/bios/openfirmware
finding downloads/mirrors
availablitity of third party stuff: flash, java, graphics drivers etc
powerpc specific bugs, mostly endian stuff
different keyboard/single button mouse

i know there are not many powerpc people left, but its definately not the quietest forum. adding lots more posts with unrelated issues, will drown out the powerpc talk.

cyberdork33
April 25th, 2008, 10:05 PM
do the intel macs really need a separate forum? and more than there should be a forum for every other hardware manufacturer.
I'd say yes. It was a battle to get us out of the normal x86 forum as it was. Apple hardware has quirks period, they may not be the same quirks on Mactels as PPC macs, but they are there none-the-less, and some are the same (such as the keyboards and the one-button touchpads). Intels have EFI as opposed to OF (and a strange, closed implementation of EFI at that) and Apple's hardware is always just a little bit different than the generic version of the same type.

In the same way though, why should System76 or Dell have their own forums? They are even more 'general x86 machines' than mactels!

stream303
April 26th, 2008, 08:50 AM
I'm with you Ssam and CyberDork33!

If it was to cleanup the main page, the sparc port is still just taking up empty space - not a SINGLE message in it as of this writing.

ssam
May 27th, 2008, 11:57 PM
There is a Forum Council IRC meeting this saturday where this will be discussed. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda

I will probably not be able to be in it, so does someone else want to make the case of an unmerge, as well as bringing up the multidistro powerpc forum.

cyberdork33
May 28th, 2008, 12:14 AM
I will try to make it if I can remember (I am bad about remembering irc meetings), but I would like some backup from the PPC side. stream303? Any others that want to show to support the idea is probably a good thing.

stream303
May 28th, 2008, 12:38 AM
I'll try to be there - may have to sneak it in during lunch, so no guarantees.

cyberdork33
May 28th, 2008, 12:48 AM
I'll try to be there - may have to sneak it in during lunch, so no guarantees.
lunch? you in the UK?

Also note on the agenda is the topic to do away with 3rd party forums, so the cross-distro ppc forum might take some extra work.

stream303
May 28th, 2008, 05:24 AM
Nah, I just work some strange hours sometimes.

Now don't laugh - one good thing came out of this - I finally got into IRC. Yup, something I've avoided for 20 years. Thought I'd better be prepared in case I am able to make it.

Now listening on #ubuntu-powerpc :)

Jammy4041
May 28th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Couldn't have said it better. Actually, purchase of ppc has dropped, but that leave a large amount of perfectly good machines that might fall by the wayside to be picked up and put into use - witness the large amount of users getting circa 1998 G3 iMacs up with Xubuntu etc. There are a lot of people who want to put even more modern machines to good use, but might balk at installing OSX Leopard on it and need some help here.

I picked up a iMac G3- it still works. Most of the world's "electronic waste" isn't rubbish yet- it still works. My iMac fortunately wasn't taken to the dump, but somebody had it and it was gathering dust. I managed to get it off my local free-cycle. I really want to put Xubuntu on this thing! :)

As a matter of fact, I managed to install Mac OS X 10.3 today- and I'm loving it!

I still think that the idea of a separated Apple PPC Users and Apple Intel Users was better, and I must agree- people will pick up old and seemingly useless hardware and put Linux on it purely out of curiosity- surely then, Ubuntu must make seperate Apple Forums, for separate things!

cyberdork33
May 28th, 2008, 03:25 PM
Nah, I just work some strange hours sometimes.Unfortunately, it is when I am normally driving to work. Hopefully, I can figure something out.